IFB: I could wear pants, but Decision Theology was the deal-breaker

[anjulibai]

2 hours ago, Khendra said:

Yes of course, you were trying to be nice while the autistic freak girl was being stupid and you had to pile on her.  Heard this a million times.  This is why autistic people get depressed and suicidal.  Great job, neurotypicals.  Always absolving yourself of any responsibility for bullying autistics.

Um, how was I supposed to know you were autistic?

And being autistic doesn't give anyone a pass on anything. 

[SilverBeach]

Khendra came in here with a boatload of assumptions, didn't she? Her phrase "you feminists and atheists" didn't set well with me. None of you who challenged her were bullying. She has anger issues in addition to being on the spectrum. I don't get people who join, jump in posting with controversial remarks, and are surprised when they get blowback. It's common knowledge that lurking for a while is a good idea no matter the forum. She would have seen how many folks here are on the spectrum. Not every forum is for everybody. I wonder what she was looking for, unconditional acceptance? To lecture people? I'm neurotypical, which is no excuse for me being an asshole, and neither is being on the spectrum.

[Curious]

3 hours ago, Khendra said:

Yes of course, you were trying to be nice while the autistic freak girl was being stupid and you had to pile on her.  Heard this a million times.  This is why autistic people get depressed and suicidal.  Great job, neurotypicals.  Always absolving yourself of any responsibility for bullying autistics.

Hi

Welcome to FJ.  It's pretty clear to me that you didn't read any of our documentation because we very clearly point out in our About Us/Mission Statement what FJ is and what our expectations are here.

No one was being mean to you because you are autistic.  How would anyone even know that unless you tell them?  We are not mind readers here.   We have things to help new people under the Guidelines and Resources links in the upper navigation bar (Resources may show up under "more" depending on your screen size).

FJ is not for everyone as @formergothardite said, but your reception was not bad.  If you read up a little and understand better what FJ is, I think you will do fine here.

[feministxtian]

18 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I'm neurotypical, which is no excuse for me being an asshole, and neither is being on the spectrum.

THIS!!! A thousand times this!!! As someone who is on the spectrum and generally sarcastic and profane, it still doesn't mean I can "get away with" being an asshole. Being here has forced me to think about a bunch of stuff, re-evaluate my POV and learn to explain things better. 

On topic:

The way I understand free will is this: God gives everyone the freedom to accept or reject Him. Since He exists out of time, he already knows who will and won't choose him. BUT...forced love (or loyalty) is not a good thing, so everyone gets the chance to choose. I'll admit that it blows my mind to think about this too much, but it kind of explains the tension between free will and predestination. 

[Briefly]

6 hours ago, Khendra said:

Not all are predestined to heaven per se.  We do also believe in the fall of mankind and that all are in sin.  Yet God has predestined some to repent and thus be saved.

Regarding pre and post trib, Lutherans are amillennialist -- we don't believe in the End Times eschatology that's big among a lot of Christians these days, especially various Pentecostal groups.  This is where my mother didn't realize it, but she splintered completely from her Wisconsin Synod Lutheran upbringing and got heavily influenced by TBN and Pentecostalism in her last 25 years of life (she passed in February).  She and my father were really big into trying to figure out the end of the world, particularly the year and month (they figured that since Jesus said we can't know the day or the hour, that didn't necessarily preclude the month or year).  At one point in the '90s they were convinced it was 2008, and my brother and I were really compelled to try and do things quickly since we'd only be 28 and 24 when they thought Jesus would come back.  Even after that failed prophecy, she was still really into the likes of John Hagee and Irvin Baxter at the end of her days.  :/ She passed without any of that useless speculation coming to pass.  I'm very much over dispensationalism now.  Looks like so much is eisegetical imagination gone wild when it comes to interpreting Daniel, Revelation, and certain other Scriptures...

When we were attempting fundamentalism, we watched a lot of John Hagee.  I was never really into it as much as Mr. Briefly was, and frankly I think he would be happy if I would change my mind and we could go back to it.  But that will never happen and he respects my choice for the most part.  Hagee is really one of the worst out there, in my opinion.  He is such a huge hypocrite. Especially in things concerning his marriage.  Hagee had so many prophecies about the end of the world, and I really think he liked the attention it brought him.  He quoted NASA quite often when he was pushing his Blood Moon garbage theory and then NASA said that they did not say what he said they did. 

[Firebird]

@Rachel333

I still have a bunch of my donut man cassets from when I was a kid!

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Imagine no religion .... my idea of Heaven.  Creator yes; religion no.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

5 hours ago, Khendra said:

Look, I'm autistic.  Maybe all your reasonings are going over my head here, but I was making the points I thought made the most sense to me.  I've already been eschewed by the Niednagels and others for having the wrong Brain Type, and then mainstream society doesn't like the way I think, either.  I don't know where I belong.  I guess I'm not Christian enough for the fundies, and not intellectual enough for all the rest of you.  Never mind, then.  I will go back and hide in my corner and realize once again that I can't win anywhere, no one thinks I have value.

Please stop considering criticism of ideas = criticism of people. If people question your ideas they aren't questioning you as a person. You are the one actually doing that throwing around sentences about lgbt people, feminists, non theists and even yourself. And since you seem cognitively able to understand and express complex thoughts it seems a bit disrespectful of yourself to blame your being on the Spectrum for a logical fallacy, don't you think? Logic is logic, comparing apples to oranges doesn't work even when you reason with a brain that is wired differently.

Re monergism, I grew up Catholic and I had to look it up because I jad never heard of it. Anyway I am agnostic now and since I don't believe in a god I couldn't care less about the supposed thought process of someone that imho doesn't even exists. On the other hand lgbt+ people do very much exist and deserve respect.

[feministxtian]

6 hours ago, Khendra said:

Yes of course, you were trying to be nice while the autistic freak girl was being stupid and you had to pile on her.  Heard this a million times.  This is why autistic people get depressed and suicidal.  Great job, neurotypicals.  Always absolving yourself of any responsibility for bullying autistics.

I've had time to think about this...now I will say my piece.

Get the fuck over yourself. Quit using your otherness as an excuse to validate yourself over others. Not everyone here is NT. If you get depressed and suicidal, it's not your ASD, it's another mental health issue and help is available for it (says the woman on the spectrum who is also diagnosed with mental health issues). NOBODY was bullying you. They were pointing out the holes in your logic. It happens. It happens to ALL of us. 

Now, I don't agree with some of the posters here on some issues. HOWEVER, I do like the perspective they bring to certain topics and LEARNING about other POV's beyond my own little bubble of life. The posters here know, that even though we may have different thoughts, beliefs, orientations, that if ANY of them wanted a shoulder I'd send them my # in a fucking new york minute. 

YOU however better get that goddamn chip off your shoulder if you want to run with the big dogs around here. STFU and start LEARNING about what we talk about. I lurked w/o registering for a good 6 months and lurked AFTER registering for a while (I only registered so I could find the new posts more easily). 

 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 hours ago, Khendra said:

Yes of course, you were trying to be nice while the autistic freak girl was being stupid and you had to pile on her.  Heard this a million times.  This is why autistic people get depressed and suicidal.  Great job, neurotypicals.  Always absolving yourself of any responsibility for bullying autistics.

Sorry dear but you can't play the pity card every time someone disagrees with you. Disagreeing =/= bullying and ASD =/= thinking in logical fallacies. You can't have a conversation here, or anywhere really, if you can't deal with disagreement. There are other people on the Spectrum on fj and even if some of them may sometimes have had difficulties in coming across as they intended they reason with sound logic, deal with disagreement without drama and avoid playing the pity card because it would sell them short. In the end here on fj it doesn't matter in which way you are wired, which gender you recognise as yours or which is your belief system, if you have one, you are not entitled to be always and unquestionably right.

Demanding that you do not face disagreement is usually a bad start here, nothing that can't be fixed of course. But as others have already said fj is not for everyone. If our conversation puts you in a bad place the wise thing may be takinga a step back and find a place more suitable and healthier for you. It's up to you though, no one sends you away. But if you stay you can't have special "no disagreement with you" rules.

[Beermeet]

@Khendra  I started out really enjoying this discussion.  Threads like this are why I stay on FJ.  I learn so much.  When the discussion and questions on the topic(s) of Catholicism or witchcraft ( haven't seen that actually, I hope it's because we're spooky. J/K <|:^ ) I have lots to contribute Catholic wise and my knowledge is just a tiny part of that kind of discussion with all the FJ'ers that can contribute.  Here? Sometimes, you will know more than others and can share and teach, other times you will be humbled and learned.  

People in an open forum will challenge you and ask questions especially if you are presenting the idea of chosen people.  My beliefs don't damn others to hell.  So, yes, discussion will ensue.  Not attack, raw discussion. Back and forth.

Nobody treated you poorly and especially not because you are autistic.  I saw it mentioned that you did disclose that on another thread.  Not everyone goes on the other threads so, most likely most here were not in the know to even judge you like that.  Not to mention you have a great vocabulary and way with words, so, believe it or not you come across confident.  Btw, if anyone on FJ ever treated another member poorly due to neuro, mental or physical issues.....well, good luck to that person.  We are NOT like that and it's offensive to me you are saying that about us.  There is an abundance of kindness here if you don't just want head pats.  @formergothardite was especially knowledgable, inquisitive and kind to you.  She also has experience in the IFB and more.  Her screen name isn't just to be cute you know.  So, please clear your head of percieved negative and re read.  Nobody did or said anything to hurt you.

[nausicaa]

4 hours ago, Kylolo said:

Lastly, the misuse of the term bullying is my new biggest pet peeve.

God, yes. 

I struggle with depression, and one thing that helps me is to use evidence to see if assumptions my depression brain is making (Everyone hates me!) can actually be supported. 

This is even easier to do when discussions are written. I would recommend Khendra go back through the responses and try to find where there is evidence of anyone "bullying her." Personally, I see no responses that call her a stupid or horrible person or make fun of her having autism.  She is welcome to reread them herself. 

[feministxtian]

14 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I struggle with depression, and one thing that helps me is to use evidence to see if assumptions my depression brain is making (Everyone hates me!) can actually be supported. 

This is even easier to do when discussions are written. I would recommend Khendra go back through the responses and try to find where there is evidence of anyone "bullying her." Personally, I see no responses that call her a stupid or horrible person or make fun of her having autism.  She is welcome to reread them herself. 

When stupid brain (depression/anxiety) is talking, I sometimes go back through certain threads where someone said something nice/complementary to/about me...it helps to remind me that I'm not a worthless, stupid piece of shit like stupid brain is trying to tell me. THAT is why I try to let everyone know that if they have a case of stupid brain happening, to reach out...DM me, whatever, so I can share the love and grace that's been shown to me. Not trying to be some sort of conceited bitch here, just saying...if you have stupid brain happening, I get it. Ya know?

[VVV]

3 hours ago, Briefly said:

When we were attempting fundamentalism, we watched a lot of John Hagee.  I was never really into it as much as Mr. Briefly was, and frankly I think he would be happy if I would change my mind and we could go back to it.  But that will never happen and he respects my choice for the most part.  Hagee is really one of the worst out there, in my opinion.  He is such a huge hypocrite. Especially in things concerning his marriage.  Hagee had so many prophecies about the end of the world, and I really think he liked the attention it brought him.  He quoted NASA quite often when he was pushing his Blood Moon garbage theory and then NASA said that they did not say what he said they did. 

I can't stand John Hagee. Can.not.stand.him. It boggles my mind that he and his wife get a pass on their adultery (they were both married to other people when they got together, and IIRC she was the secretary of the church he was pastoring at the time). I have heard from someone I trust who was professionally involved in a Hagee family event that they are all awful people. I believe it.

He and the rabbi of the local Orthodox synagogue are great friends, I assume because of Hagee's vocal support of Israel. I have to wonder if the rabbi is aware that in Hagee's theology, Israel's existence is a necessary precondition of Christ's return, at which time all Jewish people will either convert or die. Again, this boggles my mind.

Sorry, any mention of Hagee pushes my buttons. I have to assume that neither he nor the other multimillionaire megachurch pastors and televangelists actually believe a word of what they say they do. If they really believed in Jesus and his message, they could not possibly live the parasitic moneygrubbing lives that they do.

[Beermeet]

20 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

When stupid brain (depression/anxiety) is talking, I sometimes go back through certain threads where someone said something nice/complementary to/about me...it helps to remind me that I'm not a worthless, stupid piece of shit like stupid brain is trying to tell me. THAT is why I try to let everyone know that if they have a case of stupid brain happening, to reach out...DM me, whatever, so I can share the love and grace that's been shown to me. Not trying to be some sort of conceited bitch here, just saying...if you have stupid brain happening, I get it. Ya know?

I know about that!  I'm just learning to reach out.  I've always been the one who helped and healed.  I liked it there.  Now, after my son's diagnosis, I suffer and my small circle got smaller.  I would never shy away from my friends like they have me.  I get it and just may take you up on that @feministxtian.  I trust you, you are open,honest and caring.  No wondering where I stand with you.  Love it.  The fact you and your husband help others with pancreas stuff ( I know, I tend to get too technical lol!!!) says a lot.  

 I know what it's like to have the switch flip and feel on the outside of life.  But, it's never like that here and I want @Khendra to know that.  You may not get anywhere theologically right now but no one is hating on you, especially not because of autism.   This may not ultimately be a fit for you here at FJ but, it won't be due to meanness. I promise.

[MamaJunebug]

Welcome, Khendra! I think I recognize you from when you posted on Niednagel’s blog!  It’s too close to my bedtime to read this whole topic but I will in the morning!  Thank you for sharing your IFB experience.

[feministxtian]

37 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I get it and just may take you up on that @feministxtian. 

PM me and I'll happily send you my #. No bullshit. 

And, no, you never have to wonder where you stand with me...I seem to lack any tactful filter between brain and mouth...

[victoriasponge]

I like the discussion on predestination! I'm a terrible, amoral non-theist though.

I have a real interest in theology and the history of biblical interpretation, even if I disagree with many of those interpretations and/or find them logically/morally confused. This whole single predestination thing makes no sense in my head but is also super interesting and something I've never heard before.

You get challenged on FJ. I do all the time, especially seeing Catholics who are nothing like the strict Catholic school I went to and all the different strains of Christianity I never even knew existed. But the people here are fundamentally caring. As long as you follow the Golden Rule, it's a pretty nice place to belong.

I've never actually said how much I like being on FJ. But I really do. I lurk a lot in forums I don't post in and it's lovely to see people share their stories and explain their own opinions, even when they challenge my own and make me reconsider my preconceptions. It only works if you're willing to be challenged, however.

[formergothardite]

29 minutes ago, victoriasponge said:

This whole single predestination thing makes no sense in my head but is also super interesting and something I've never heard before.

It makes no sense in my head either.  But I do find it interesting to see how it does make sense to some people. To me. The one link said that some people were predestined because of God's knowledge. So basically God knows some people are going to heaven. But what make's God's knowledge stop there? What makes some people special that God knows the outcome of their lives but others he doesn't? Theologically(if I still believed) I would find this way more confusing than regular predestination. 

[zeebaneighba]

Here's the problem I have with predestination.  God is supposed to be all-powerful, right?  So if some people are predestined to  be saved and others are not, HE IS THE ONE THAT DECIDED THAT.  Why would anyone want to worship that god?

[Georgiana]

34 minutes ago, zeebaneighba said:

Here's the problem I have with predestination.  God is supposed to be all-powerful, right?  So if some people are predestined to  be saved and others are not, HE IS THE ONE THAT DECIDED THAT.  Why would anyone want to worship that god?

I mean, scholars believe the first recorded instance of what we would now call genocide is in the Bible AND was ordered by this very God, so predestining people to Hell is really rather "light" for this particular deity.  RIP Midianites.  

I think a devout pagan, who also happened to be a Roman Emperor, got it right:

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

[zeebaneighba]

 

16 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

I mean, scholars believe the first recorded instance of what we would now call genocide is in the Bible AND was ordered by this very God, so predestining people to Hell is really rather "light" for this particular deity.  RIP Midianites.  

Yeah, this and many other examples are why I am an atheist.  If I were a Christian, I would definitely be works, not grace.

[Lisafer]

This thread took a troubling turn yesterday, and I backed way off, but I see that we are safely on the topic of predestination again, so here I am.  I grew up Calvinist, and oh boy, do Calvinists love predestination!

@zeebaneighba what we were taught re: predestination was that, yes, God had chosen people to be saved (the elect). The non-elect, those whom God had not chosen, would go to hell.

It sounds cruel (and it really is cruel) but the way Calvinism forces predestination to mesh with the concept of a "loving God" is by saying that if you go to hell, it is your own fault. And it's your fault because you are sinful, both because of Adam's sin (imputed guilt) and because of your own sin nature that causes you to reject God. 

In other words, God would totally save you if you repented and believed in him, but your sinfulness (which is your fault) makes it impossible for you to have a saving faith in Christ.  You are "dead in sin." 

The way the elect are saved is by God, via the Holy Spirit, changing your sinful nature so that you are able to have faith. But he doesn't do this for everyone: only the elect, whom he has predestined (chosen from eternity). Vice-versa, he has not chosen others to be saved, so they will certainly go to hell.

Goodness, this is like a sloppy five-minute version of predestination. Please ask questions and I'll try to clarify. This is what I was taught growing up, and now, writing it out, it sounds horrifyingly cruel. I left Calvinism before I left Christianity, because it made God seem like such an ass. 

[Briefly]

19 hours ago, VVV said:

I can't stand John Hagee. Can.not.stand.him. It boggles my mind that he and his wife get a pass on their adultery (they were both married to other people when they got together, and IIRC she was the secretary of the church he was pastoring at the time). I have heard from someone I trust who was professionally involved in a Hagee family event that they are all awful people. I believe it.

He and the rabbi of the local Orthodox synagogue are great friends, I assume because of Hagee's vocal support of Israel. I have to wonder if the rabbi is aware that in Hagee's theology, Israel's existence is a necessary precondition of Christ's return, at which time all Jewish people will either convert or die. Again, this boggles my mind.

Sorry, any mention of Hagee pushes my buttons. I have to assume that neither he nor the other multimillionaire megachurch pastors and televangelists actually believe a word of what they say they do. If they really believed in Jesus and his message, they could not possibly live the parasitic moneygrubbing lives that they do.

Mr. Briefly's sister went to his church once.  His son was giving the message that day.  She said that the son basically spent the entire sermon time yelling at the congregation and telling them how they were all such bad people and they were in danger because the end time was coming, and that they were all probably going to Hell.  She said that they were never going back.

I looked up Hagee's biographic details after we'd been watching him for a while and I was appalled.

[hoipolloi]

Raised UU here so predestination is not even on my religious radar. I sort of understand what it is, or is supposed to be, but cannot understand why anyone would have it as a cornerstone of religion.

If it's all predestined, including heaven or hell, why bother?  Calvin was a fucking crank.