IFB: I could wear pants, but Decision Theology was the deal-breaker

[Lisafer]

@Alisamer you are correct--Protestants believe in confession directly to God, not through an intermediary. 

[choralcrusader8613]

Lutherans have an order of confession and forgiveness in the worship service, but the Small Catechism also has an order for private confession to a minister:

http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#confession

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, Curious said:

Do other denominations do confession like the Catholic church does? 

I don't think they do. We had the whole altar call thing which made me very, very uncomfortable. If you had an issue you had to walk to the very front of the church while everyone sang Just As I Am and pray or talk with the pastor. So everyone knew that the person who went up front had something going on in their life that wasn't good and people would gossip about it. But if you never went forward and prayed it  looked like you weren't open to God's leading. The whole set up is just terrible. 

[Lisafer]

29 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I don't think they do. We had the whole altar call thing which made me very, very uncomfortable. If you had an issue you had to walk to the very front of the church while everyone sang Just As I Am and pray or talk with the pastor. So everyone knew that the person who went up front had something going on in their life that wasn't good and people would gossip about it. But if you never went forward and prayed it  looked like you weren't open to God's leading. The whole set up is just terrible. 

The church I grew up in regarded altar calls as unbiblical, so at least we didn't have to suffer through anything like that. Before communion (which was once or twice a year) there'd be a few moments of silence in which you were supposed to "examine yourself" and confess your sins to God. But nothing public. We were private people!

[Alisamer]

26 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I don't think they do. We had the whole altar call thing which made me very, very uncomfortable. If you had an issue you had to walk to the very front of the church while everyone sang Just As I Am and pray or talk with the pastor. So everyone knew that the person who went up front had something going on in their life that wasn't good and people would gossip about it. But if you never went forward and prayed it  looked like you weren't open to God's leading. The whole set up is just terrible. 

We have that, but it's generally for people who are becoming members of the church to come forward, and they will have already spoken to the pastor beforehand in most cases. Any other issues you could come up if you wanted, but you could just as easily talk to the pastor any other time instead. Usually after the song our pastor uses that as a chance to remind everyone of any major events going on that week, then says a prayer and "go now in peace" and then the choir sings a short postlude. And we don't do the thing my old church did where you just keep singing Just As I Am over and over until finally someone gives in and goes forward so the preacher will just stop already and let you go home... 

[Pecansforeveryone]

52 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I don't think they do. We had the whole altar call thing which made me very, very uncomfortable. If you had an issue you had to walk to the very front of the church while everyone sang Just As I Am and pray or talk with the pastor. So everyone knew that the person who went up front had something going on in their life that wasn't good and people would gossip about it. But if you never went forward and prayed it  looked like you weren't open to God's leading. The whole set up is just terrible. 

I hated alter calls with the fire of a thousand suns. Such over the top theatrics and hyping it up. A massive dose of emotional manipulation.  It's one of the most grating aspects of fundagelical churches for me is the emotional roller coaster and "working up the fervor." 

@Lisafer, May I ask what church you were in that believed alter calls were unbiblical? Just curious. 

[Lisafer]

2 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I hated alter calls with the fire of a thousand suns. Such over the top theatrics and hyping it up. A massive dose of emotional manipulation.  It's one of the most grating aspects of fundagelical churches for me is the emotional roller coaster and "working up the fervor." 

@Lisafer, May I ask what church you were in that believed alter calls were unbiblical? Just curious. 

RPCNA (Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America). We had this thing called the "regulative principle of worship" that held that anything not specifically commanded in the Bible for worship was unbiblical. Lots of interpretive gymnastics required. Altar calls, not being even mentioned in the Bible, were out. Hymns, because they were written after the Bible was completed, were out as well. Anything involved in the worship service had to have some kind of Biblical precedent, no matter how vague or tortured the explanation. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

12 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

RPCNA (Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America). We had this thing called the "regulative principle of worship" that held that anything not specifically commanded in the Bible for worship was unbiblical. Lots of interpretive gymnastics required. Altar calls, not being even mentioned in the Bible, were out. Hymns, because they were written after the Bible was completed, were out as well. Anything involved in the worship service had to have some kind of Biblical precedent, no matter how vague or tortured the explanation. 

Oh wow! Mental gymnastics indeed. That's the1st time i have heard of hymns not being considered biblical. I remember how stunned I was to find out from my Church of Christ friend that musical instruments weren't used in her church services because they weren't around during biblical times. (I guess Davids harp was purely metaphorical.) They also didn't display Nativity scenes because they didn't celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ. (I inwardly "what the helled" at that and at her assertion that unbaptized infants who die go to hell. 

[Lisafer]

7 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Oh wow! Mental gymnastics indeed. That's the1st time i have heard of hymns not being considered biblical. I remember how stunned I was to find out from my Church of Christ friend that musical instruments weren't used in her church services because they weren't around during biblical times. (I guess Davids harp was purely metaphorical.) They also didn't display Nativity scenes because they didn't celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ. (I inwardly "what the helled" at that and at her assertion that unbaptized infants who die go to hell. 

There's a Wikipedia entry on the Regulative Principle that's actually fairly accurate: I looked it up really quick. 

Some people in our church celebrated Christmas, but it was not a big production at all. My parents didn't celebrate Christmas. I went 2 decades without a Christmas *cries*. Now, witchy though I am, I lurrrrrve the Christmas season. Trees, lights, presents, baking, dinners...it's awesome!

We were not taught that unbaptized infants went to Hell, though. We were taught that God's saving grace could regenerate even infants, so that there was a hope that babies would go to heaven. Baptism didn't enter into that equation.

In a way I'm grateful for the Regulative Principle. It was the first crack in the wall for me theologically, because it was itself unbiblical. I was able to get away from really weird niche churches and go more mainstream after I stopped believing in it. 

 

[refugee]

On 7/8/2018 at 3:22 PM, louisa05 said:

My relatives were in the Midwest connected to the Midwestern School of Evangelism in Ottumwa, IA.

Wait, sudden geeky moment here.

Isn't that the hometown of Walter O’Reilly (Radar) from MASH?

I’m only on p. 2 of the thread, so I don’t know how the whole flounce-or-stay thing is working out or worked out.

Kendra has my sympathy for obvious hurt but has also raised some of my hackles here and there. I alternate between wanting to offer a hug and saying, “Just chill.”

fwiw

[FeministShrew]

Funny story about altar calls: my mom (born 1935) was raised Southern Baptist, and in her childhood church and then the one she took us to, altar calls (or "the invitation" as we called it) were only used for people who wanted to join the church or once in awhile a kid, teenager, or visitor (who had previously talked to the pastor & been "saved")  to make a "public profession of faith" and ask to be baptized.
She was shocked after coming to the Free Will Baptist (later non-denom) church my kids' dad & I belonged to, because so many people went up to the altar during the invitation, usually to pray by themselves. She couldn't figure out why they needed to "join the church" every week, lol.
At that church, going to the altar was mostly about "look at me, how holy and humble I am," and small groups of friends would go up together (particularly if there had been some petty disagreement the week before" or people would go up to pray with their friends. Even the little kids would mimic the adults & go up. The measure of how good the service had been was how many people had gone up to the altar, and how many ladies looked like raccoons because their mascara was flowing with the tears. 
Of course, you didn't have to wait for the altar call. People went up during songs that particularly moved them, too. It was not uncommon for most of the choir to end up down there sometimes.
Yeah, I may be a little cynical about it all now, but no matter how much weeping & wailing went on, you never saw a real change in anyone's behavior or attitude.

[refugee]

@Lisafer We didn’t celebrate Halloween, and now it’s one of my kidults’ favorite holiday. Trick or treating and Easter egg hunts are two childhood memories they’ll never build or be able to go back and build. Sigh.

Holidays were hellish times in my childhood, so I didn’t really miss them. But I wish I’d done less avoidance when my kids were littlish. We celebrated christmas as a season of giving and special treats (“Santa” felt like lying to my kids, so we played it as a “santa game” instead, too long to go into here but at least they remember bulging stockings and packages heaped up under the tree).

But they are making their own choices now. More power to them.

[refugee]

On 7/10/2018 at 6:46 AM, Alisamer said:

also would like to see Khendra stick around, I think she could be a valuable voice to hear. However, I feel in this particular thread she was very quick to pull the "autism card" rather than actually look at what she said that was problematic, and she took (relatively gentle, IMO, considering what she said) pushback against her offensive statement as a personal attack. I think she could learn a lot here and we could learn a lot from her, but only if she's willing to take some criticism and understand that people will disagree with her sometimes, and that doesn't mean they're attacking HER personally.

Thank you for taking the time to recap. I read the first part of the thread so quickly, I shook my head at the comparison without really having time to absorb it. But reading through this, even though my sympathy was aroused by the OP’s “you’re all picking on me!”, I was able to see the initial WTF I experienced, followed by exasperation, was “true.” (After decades of squelching my emotions and questioning my reactions, I’m still learning to pay attention and not immediately dismiss my gut reactions as unreliable. Damn Dobson and his “Emotions... can you trust them?” and fundie teachings that women are easily deceived and led astray by emotion and illogic. Curse them for all the damage they’ve done and are still doing to people.)

The autistic people I know IRL don’t use it as an excuse for bad behavior or a get-out-of-jail-free card. I hope the OP can grow past the hurts of the past and learn to both accept responsibility for their part in any conflict as well as learn to extend some grace to self and others.

Please forgive if this sounds like pontificating. Too much coffee on top of too little sleep.

[formergothardite]

33 minutes ago, FeministShrew said:

At that church, going to the altar was mostly about "look at me, how holy and humble I am," and small groups of friends would go up together

Once church I attended, the entire youth group would make a production of going up front to pray each Sunday.The pastor always used that as an example of how the church had a super godly youth group. It was pretty obvious that they were just going to the front to get attention. 

35 minutes ago, FeministShrew said:

The measure of how good the service had been was how many people had gone up to the altar,

This was my experience with the Baptist churches I attended. A service wasn't good unless you had at least a group of people up front during the altar call. It was practically a scandal if no one went up. We had to keep singing Just As I Am until someone gave in and went up front crying! We had a guest preacher who came regularly and his goal would be to get the whole church up front. During the altar call he would point to one side of the church and say "The Lord is laying it on my heart that some people  from this side need to come to the front to get right with God." He would keep on until people came forward, he would then do that on the other side. He would switch to specific rows in the church and he just wouldn't stop. I remember being so hungry and wishing everyone would walk forward at once so we could just leave. 

[Frumper]

43 minutes ago, FeministShrew said:

Funny story about altar calls: my mom (born 1935) was raised Southern Baptist, and in her childhood church and then the one she took us to, altar calls (or "the invitation" as we called it) were only used for people who wanted to join the church or once in awhile a kid, teenager, or visitor (who had previously talked to the pastor & been "saved")  to make a "public profession of faith" and ask to be baptized.

This is my background as well, and until this thread I never knew anyone would consider an altar call to be anything other than this!

[refugee]

On 7/10/2018 at 11:05 AM, Jinder Roles said:

And I don't feel comfortable talking about this in real life because I know the answer is "trust the Lord and lean not on your own understanding" in addition to questioning my beliefs and trying to revitalize my faith. 

Sigh. See, that answer/quotation is too close to the attitude of the abusers in my past experience, put together with the monster-god of the hypercalvinist church we left behind.

My sympathies are with you. I’m not so sure I want to revitalize my faith, even though others keep telling me they perceive that it is an important part of what makes me tick. It was a huge part of my life. My basic philosophy has always been “Do unto others...” but you’ll find that in other faith traditions, not just churchianity. 

Frankly, the thought of stepping foot in a church these days makes me want to vomit. Christianity feels like a big con game, and I spent most of my life as a mark.

(no offense meant to FJ Christians. I wish I could still find comfort in it. I miss that feeling of being loved even though I could do nothing worth earning it.)

Sorry, tmi and too much self-disclosure. This thread has been triggering. Good discussion, though.

[Lisafer]

8 minutes ago, refugee said:

Sigh. See, that answer/quotation is too close to the attitude of the abusers in my past experience, put together with the monster-god of the hypercalvinist church we left behind.

My sympathies are with you. I’m not so sure I want to revitalize my faith, even though others keep telling me they perceive that it is an important part of what makes me tick. It was a huge part of my life. My basic philosophy has always been “Do unto others...” but you’ll find that in other faith traditions, not just churchianity. 

Frankly, the thought of stepping foot in a church these days makes me want to vomit. Christianity feels like a big con game, and I spent most of my life as a mark.

(no offense meant to FJ Christians. I wish I could still find comfort in it. I miss that feeling of being loved even though I could do nothing worth earning it.)

Sorry, tmi and too much self-disclosure. This thread has been triggering. Good discussion, though.

I'm sorry it's triggering you. I can really identify with the feeling that Christianity is a big con game. I feel like talking about my upbringing on FJ is helping me work through some of this stuff, though. 

And Halloween? Squee! I mean, I love Christmas, but Halloween would have to be hands-down my favorite holiday. I didn't get to participate as a child, but now that I have children I get to buy them costumes and take them trick-or-treating. It's so fun! Yeah, I can't go back and be a child again, but watching my own children enjoying holidays makes me so happy. 

Non-creepy hugs for you, if you want them. It sounds like you've been through a lot. 

[zeebaneighba]

17 hours ago, Curious said:

Not sure why, but reading this thread a question just came to me.  Do other denominations do confession like the Catholic church does?   I hated going to confession as a kid because I was a pretty good/well mannered child and trying to come up with something to confess always stressed me out. 

There was a priest at the church in another town that somehow became a family friend (not sure how exactly since he was from a town like 45 minutes away), but he would come to dinner sometimes or fill in for our priest once in a while.  I always tried to wait to go to him for confession because he knew me pretty well and knew I had a lot of stress around confession so he would just kind of lead me through asking did I do this or that since my last confession.  I'm not sure that is how it's actually supposed to work, but I really appreciated how he handled it.

The Episcopal church will do it upon request, but it is not a requirement.

[CelticGoddess]

3 hours ago, Lisafer said:

 

And Halloween? Squee! I mean, I love Christmas, but Halloween would have to be hands-down my favorite holiday. I didn't get to participate as a child, but now that I have children I get to buy them costumes and take them trick-or-treating. It's so fun! Yeah, I can't go back and be a child again, but watching my own children enjoying holidays makes me so happy. 

 

I have always loved Halloween.  I actually now celebrate Samhain.   When my kids were small, I would dress in garb and carry a small pumpkin (hollowed out with a candle in it) and one time I carried a rutebega I hollowed out ( note, I only did it one time:  Will never hollow out another rutebega again!)   Now I have a fire in the fire pit (can't have a proper bon fire), provide an offering to my Goddesses and a few other little things.  I get a few raised eyebrows from neighbors but so far they haven't said much.  

I love any reason to celebrate!

 

21 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Reformed Church of America, first cousin to CRC (Christian Reformed Church), very old denominations of Dutch origin. What is OPC?

Never mind, I looked it up, Orthodox Presybeterian Church. Nope. Way too conservative, not like RCA which is progressive in many ways.

I'm glad you asked because to my OPC means Oneness Pentecostal Church.  I have a lot of family members on my grandma's side who are OPC.  

[Briefly]

8 hours ago, Alisamer said:

We have that, but it's generally for people who are becoming members of the church to come forward, and they will have already spoken to the pastor beforehand in most cases. Any other issues you could come up if you wanted, but you could just as easily talk to the pastor any other time instead. Usually after the song our pastor uses that as a chance to remind everyone of any major events going on that week, then says a prayer and "go now in peace" and then the choir sings a short postlude. And we don't do the thing my old church did where you just keep singing Just As I Am over and over until finally someone gives in and goes forward so the preacher will just stop already and let you go home... 

That's how it is in the S. Baptist and United Methodist churches I have attended or belonged to.  If someone needs to speak to the pastor or have a specific item prayed for, they can come to the altar and are welcomed to without it becoming public.  Or they can just go to the altar, kneel and pray as long as they need to and then go back to their seats.  Mostly though it's people who are wanting to join the church.

[SilverBeach]

9 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I don't believe protestants do at all - my understanding is that one of the major points is that "priesthood of the believers" thing which basically means (in my understanding) everyone who believes can talk directly to God themselves, there's no need for an intermediary in the form of a priest. So confession is not an organized thing, but you confess to God directly in your prayers, which are meant to be a conversation with God, of sorts. (Again, this is all how I understand it, which is probably really simplified!)

@Pecansforeveryone and @Lisafer thank you - I really think if my church wasn't so loving and accepting I'd have left church entirely ages ago. Our sermons are more like lessons - here's what this says, here's what these words seem to have meant in that time with these connotations, here's a story of how this has played out in my life, God loves you. We've got one lady in the church who is KJV only, because her mother was. So when she reads scripture she uses that version, but she doesn't care what version anyone else uses. The pastor will often use several translations to help explain a passage. And the focus really is on developing a personal relationship with God, which is personal.

I totally agree with everything you have said here. My prayers are definitely conversations, I don't believe God is a genie so I don't really ask for things for myself, but I do ask for increasing wisdom, strength, and love. I don't confess as much as acknowledge my shortcomings. I admit that I do ask for things for other people though, LOL.

1 hour ago, CelticGoddess said:

I'm glad you asked because to my OPC means Oneness Pentecostal Church.  I have a lot of family members on my grandma's side who are OPC.   

Yeah, that's light years away from the RCA, haha. Interestingly, there are folks in my congregation that speak in tongues, but they do it quietly and it is not a requirement at all. We actually have quite a lively service for an RCA church, but we do observe some liturgical things like Maundy Thursday and Advent. Our congregation is quite integrated, which is something I love, and members come from a wide variety of faith traditions. If only it was open and affirming...

[Rachel333]

The LDS are supposed to confess serious sins to their bishop. I've seen a lot of people point out how easily this can be abused when you've got a bishop (who is just a member like anyone else--they don't get paid at the lower levels and bishops are just nominated from the congregation with no special training like in other churches) asking young people very personal questions.

In the churches I grew up in (non-denominational Protestant) you were supposed to confess your sins to God and confession to a person wasn't required but was highly encouraged. That person didn't need to be a leader in the church, though.

You were particularly supposed to confess and ask for forgiveness all your sins to God before taking communion and if you didn't there would be bad spiritual consequences. I'd always say a general prayer to cover everything I might not have thought of, but it scared me anyway. Come to think of it, I don't actually remember hearing about what specifically those consequences would be, I just knew it was really bad!

[Jigsaw3]

Episcopal/Anglican churches have corporate confession as part of the order of service. It's pretty comprehensive and general, and is recited by the whole congregation together. It's followed by the absolution from the minister. It covers the whole confession/absolution before taking communion thing pretty effectively!

Here's one version, from the Book of Common Prayer:

"I confess that I have sinned in thought, word, and deed, by what I have done and by what I have left undone. I have not loved you with my whole heart, and I have not loved my neighbour as myself. I am truly sorry and I humbly repent..."

 

[formergothardite]

People did come forward to join the church during the altar call(sometimes called the invitation). I hated that too! I disliked having to stand there while everyone stared at me. And then we had to stand while everyone came and shook our hand and welcomed us to the church. The most interesting thing I saw during a family coming forward to join was when the 13 year old daughter flat out refused to come up front. The rest of the family was up there and they tried to pull her up to the front but she grabbed the pew and wouldn't come. The pastor told everyone to close their eyes and pray while the piano kept playing(no one did, we were nosy!) and tried to coax her to the front, but she wouldn't come. Finally he just said that "The _____ family is coming forward to join the church do we have a motion to accept?" and that was it. They didn't stay members long because the daughter wouldn't come to any activities. 

 

[Lisafer]

On 7/13/2018 at 1:06 PM, formergothardite said:

People did come forward to join the church during the altar call(sometimes called the invitation). I hated that too! I disliked having to stand there while everyone stared at me. And then we had to stand while everyone came and shook our hand and welcomed us to the church. The most interesting thing I saw during a family coming forward to join was when the 13 year old daughter flat out refused to come up front. The rest of the family was up there and they tried to pull her up to the front but she grabbed the pew and wouldn't come. The pastor told everyone to close their eyes and pray while the piano kept playing(no one did, we were nosy!) and tried to coax her to the front, but she wouldn't come. Finally he just said that "The _____ family is coming forward to join the church do we have a motion to accept?" and that was it. They didn't stay members long because the daughter wouldn't come to any activities. 

 

Aw, I feel really bad for that girl. Poor thing. 

I attended a Nazarene church for a while a few years ago. The altar call was partly so people could come forward and pray the salvation prayer, and partly for people who had issues or troubles to come forward and pray with church leaders. I saw the pastor get really pissy once because nobody would come to the front! He was not a bad guy, but I guess he felt like it didn't look good that nobody was responding to the altar call.