Quiverfull and men who can't

[docmom]

We know that the position of a great many quiverfull families is that women should continue to have babies even if they have been advised against it for medical reasons. What if a man is advised against having sex for medical reasons? Is he still obligated to go through with the act even although it might kill him? I'm guessing the old double standard is alive and well in these cases but wondered if anyone had come across anything that addresses this.

[maybeizfundie]

Abstinence is not an automatic no-no. Abstinance with prayer for a time is perfectly Biblical, and could be a consistent response to a situation like molar pregnancy. The big issue with QF is the deliberate and intentional separation of sex/marriage from procreation--wanting sex without the possibility of children (because "children are a blessing and if God chooses to give them, it is a good thing, not a bad thing"). If sex is medically impossible or prohibited, the point is kind of moot.

Although, of course, different people take it different ways and people have travelled all kinds of different paths from that one starting point. There's the must-have-babies-anyway-anyhow-no-matter-what, and there are others who don't use birth control, for religious reasons, but have an understanding that such a position does not mean that one has to or will have a baby every 9 months. The latter would probably take the inability for a man to have intercourse as an end to natural childbearing though it was unintentional and probably undesired, like they would an emergency hysterectomy or chemotherapy induced infertility as a side effect of cancer treatment.

[bananacat]

If a Quiverfull man couldn't have sex all the time, there's no way he'd admit it to the rest of the Quiverfull men. He'd lose his masculine status. Quiverfull is the modern version of a codpiece. There aren't many medical conditions that I can think of that make it unsafe for a man to have sex long-term. If a man had an operation or injury, it wouldn't be too hard to avoid sex for the few months of recovery, especially since there's a good chance his wife would already be pregnant. The only thing I can think of that could have a long-term effect is impotence, and even then it's not unsafe for him to have sex. Many impotent men still manage to have kids. They could try to schedule sex around ovulation, like the Duggars already to. The man would probably feel some guilt, or he might blame his wife for not being attractive enough. As a last resort I wouldn't be surprised if they use some kind of medication in secret. But impotence usually effects on older men, so in Quiverfull he'd probably have several children already and any decrease in fertility would probably be blamed on his wife, who is aging as much as he is.

[helloemi]

I'm thinking quiverfullers think a lot like insurance companies. Well until Obama got us free birth control next year (but don't rub it into the fundies!)

Viagra = Good but The Pill = Bad.

Even if the pill relieves edometriosis, prevents births when it is medically a bad idea.

I have never seen a reference to this...but I am will to bet they are down with pills like Viagra. Anyone seen Big Love?

[Daenerys]

What if a Quiverfull 'son' such as Zach Bates got married and then discovered he couldn't have children naturally?

[NurseNell]

What if a Quiverfull 'son' such as Zach Bates got married and then discovered he couldn't have children naturally?

Male infertility is more common than people think. If it's related to a varicocele it can sometimes be surgically corrected. But if he's steril, no living sperm or no sperm he's out of luck. We've come much further with treatments for female infertility than for male.

Some men who have erectile dysfunction have it as a side effect from blood pressure pills, and some others. I don't think men on BP pills can take viagra. And there's prostate cancer that leads to erectile problems. Maybe Viagra works for them, don't know. And lots of diabetic men have problems due to vessel damage from high blood sugars. Maybe Viagra works for them too.

I would hope no woman would divorce over this issue. Or any man whose spouse had infertility. I didn't divorce my husband over this issue. We adopted. We could have chosen to stay childless too.

[maybeizfundie]

Although there is the issue with Gothardism/ATI and adoption, not all QF people are ATI, and adoption is not at all uncommon in that group overall.

So if infertility were the issue, adoption might be where they look.

Or if adoption were not possible, or they didn't feel "led", the alternative would be to come to peace with the fact that God's will was for them to have no children, or very few.

Because there is variance, there would probably also be some who would seek limited medical treatment for either male or female infertility. But that gets sticky if you're going to hold to the "Whatever God wants" philosophy.

[gustava]

According to the website of the Mayo Clinic: Approximately 15 percent of couples are infertile. This means they aren't able to conceive a child even though they've had frequent, unprotected sexual intercourse for a year or longer — or for at least six months if the woman is age 35 or older. In about half of these cases, male infertility plays a role.

So half the time, the headship is shooting blanks....or something akin....

[finleeport]

I thought adoption was against the Quiverfull beliefs

[lexiloumarie]

I thought adoption was against the Quiverfull beliefs

From what I've gathered it depends on the church the family goes to. The only constant with QF families is the lack of BC. VF families tend to be okay with adoption, where as Gothard/ATI is against is because of the child taking on the sins of the birth parent.

[helloemi]

I thought adoption was against the Quiverfull beliefs

I have a QF "friend" on facebook and her group of friends have a few adopted children from Africa among them. That seems to be a QF badge of honor...to go on a mission trip and come back with a child as a souvenir I guess...

She posted that she "dreamt that (she) adopted the most sweet and obedient biracial chubby five year old girl". This gave me the heebie geebies on so many levels.

1. I have been told biracial is offensive. (Because what two races exactly...)

2. Of all the characteristics you could want in a child you choose obedience? Eeeew....

I am very pro-adoption. As a woman who should probably not have children for medical reasons, I get enraged when this pressure is put on the wife. Grrrr! I am happy that children are able to find families... but it's a bit creepy when children are treated like Pokemon....(Gotta convert them all?)

[NurseNell]

I am very pro-adoption. As a woman who should probably not have children for medical reasons, I get enraged when this pressure is put on the wife. Grrrr! I am happy that children are able to find families... but it's a bit creepy when children are treated like Pokemon....(Gotta convert them all?)

Have you adopted yet? My 2 sons are from Colombia, daughter from Alabama.

[maybeizfundie]

I thought adoption was against the Quiverfull beliefs

Nope.

Gothard taught some stuff that leans towards anti-adoption, though I'm not really sure how far?? Something about generational sins etc.

But QF isn't a monolithic or homogeneous group. Nancy Campbell and her clan have quite a few international adoptions between them, for instance.

[Hisey]

Male infertility is more common than people think. If it's related to a varicocele it can sometimes be surgically corrected. But if he's steril, no living sperm or no sperm he's out of luck. We've come much further with treatments for female infertility than for male.

Some men who have erectile dysfunction have it as a side effect from blood pressure pills, and some others. I don't think men on BP pills can take viagra. And there's prostate cancer that leads to erectile problems. Maybe Viagra works for them, don't know. And lots of diabetic men have problems due to vessel damage from high blood sugars. Maybe Viagra works for them too.

I would hope no woman would divorce over this issue. Or any man whose spouse had infertility. I didn't divorce my husband over this issue. We adopted. We could have chosen to stay childless too.

Hey, Nurse Nell. Welcome to the club. My DH can't father children, and we also adopted. We didn't want to be childless, and we didn't want to do sperm donation, and neither of us had the stomach for IVF.

It made me much more tolerant of other's choices. I know the longing for a baby, which was happily resolved for me. I don't judge how anyone else solves that problem. I just feel forever grateful for my children.

I don't think people would divorce over this unless the marriage was already bad. DH's infertility did improve our relationship, since it brought up a lot of problems I didn't know existed and that suddenly were demanding resolution.

[ems]

. The big issue with QF is the deliberate and intentional separation of sex/marriage from procreation--wanting sex without the possibility of children (because "children are a blessing and if God chooses to give them, it is a good thing, not a bad thing"). If sex is medically impossible or prohibited, the point is kind of moot.

I always thought that was the Catholic rationale against birth control. It was what was taught to me at Catholic high school, that the "unitive and procreative functions of sex shouldn't be separated." And I understand that thinking, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. But even traditionalist Catholics aren't necessarily QF - they support natural family planning/periodic abstinence, and even if they think they should always be open to God's blessings, they're not necessarily working to create the largest quiver possible for the army of God.

On the OP's question....yeah, I'm not sure how that's looked upon. If the fundie goes beyond birth-control resistance to thinking one should accept AS MANY blessings from God as possible...then yeah, it might be a problem..

[ems]

She posted that she "dreamt that (she) adopted the most sweet and obedient biracial chubby five year old girl". This gave me the heebie geebies on so many levels.

Sounds like she adopted a puppy... A mutt??

[NurseNell]

Hey, Nurse Nell. Welcome to the club. My DH can't father children, and we also adopted. We didn't want to be childless, and we didn't want to do sperm donation, and neither of us had the stomach for IVF.

IVF wasn't around in the early 70's but it would not have been an option for us either. And sperm donation just doesn't seem right. So adoption worked for us too.

[helloemi]

Have you adopted yet? My 2 sons are from Colombia, daughter from Alabama.

We are still pretty much newly weds (married in March) but we are seriously considering the idea. Where we live, adoption is fully reimbursed by the county and the child gets their college education and health care paid for so it seems like it's very do-able. We had tossed around the idea of adopting before I got sick, I'm just worried that I wouldn't always have the energy (lupus) to care for a child and it wouldn't be fair to them.

So right now I just have a painfully spoiled poodle who thinks he is our baby.

[helloemi]

Sounds like she adopted a puppy... A mutt??

Tell me about it! That describes it perfectly...those are qualities that are preferred in a dog, and even then I would much rather have a "spirited" dog! (Ooooo how I hate when fundies call kids "spirited")

They already have FIVE kids (she is 29!!!) and to go on and on about how you woke up with your heart aching for this child you dreamt of and how your family seems empty now...well that's pretty insulting to those of us that would do anything for a baby right now. I was in tears after I read that....I just want to give birth to one!

[maybeizfundie]

I always thought that was the Catholic rationale against birth control. It was what was taught to me at Catholic high school, that the "unitive and procreative functions of sex shouldn't be separated." And I understand that thinking, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. But even traditionalist Catholics aren't necessarily QF - they support natural family planning/periodic abstinence, and even if they think they should always be open to God's blessings, they're not necessarily working to create the largest quiver possible for the army of God.

QF goes farther than the Catholic viewpoint in rejecting NFP to avoid conception as well. But I think the thing about QF is that it is not made up from one denomination or particular group, so there are varied doctrinal "paths" and thought processes that people travel to get there. The Calvinist reasoning is going to be a little different from the Anabaptist reasoning, which is going to be different from Vision Forum and ATI's reasoning. There definitely has been the "army of God" language used, and I definitely know people who are frantic to have children ("My baby's 8 months old! My period isn't back! Am I infertile?????") but there are others for whom it is more a matter of acceptance ("I will accept what God gives me, even if it's more or less than my wishes"). I can only speak to my experience with personal aquaintances, because I've not been involved in the various official groups that often get tagged as the spokesmen for QF.

[emmiedahl]

(Ooooo how I hate when fundies call kids "spirited")

I think a lot of people use that term. I use spirited a lot in referring to one of my daughters. Strong-willed sounds so negative. Grace is full of life and energy and play, like a spirited colt. She just has a lot of opinions and not a lot of maturity in expressing them. (she's 9, so I don't actually expect maturity, but I think as she grows she will learn to reign it in a bit)

[helloemi]

I think a lot of people use that term. I use spirited a lot in referring to one of my daughters. Strong-willed sounds so negative. Grace is full of life and energy and play, like a spirited colt. She just has a lot of opinions and not a lot of maturity in expressing them. (she's 9, so I don't actually expect maturity, but I think as she grows she will learn to reign it in a bit)

I know I was one as a child that's for sure! I'm still pretty spirited :D I have heard it used in a very negative context...more along the lines of strong-willed, so the term has always struck me as the same thing. I'm foreign to mom-speak so excuse my ignorance :oops: I had only heard it used before in what seemed like the parent was saying it was a bad thing.

I would much rather have a lively, creative, playful, child with tons of opinions than one who could be descibed as "obedient".

[emmiedahl]

Maybe there is a connotation to spirited that I am not getting. It would not be the first time! I have used strong-willed in reference to Grace, but I try to use other terms. "Spirited", "opinionated", etc. Semantics aside, she has the type of personality that, when we privately discuss where we see our kids in a few decades, the careers lawyer, politician and Marine drill sergeant come up. I could not beat it out of her if I were inclined to try.

I would not trade her for a meek and quiet child. I already have one of those. If I only wanted one personality type in my home, I would only have had one child.

[helloemi]

I think I may have been confusing the term spirited with times I have heard about "breaking a childs will" or thinking that "Spirited" is something the Pearls would use as an example of when to strike a child.

I have seen books on spirited children in the positive light (more along the lines of taming a spirited child) and I may have misinterpreted that as a negative thing.

I wont pretend to be a child expert, all the world needs is another childless person claiming they understand what it's like to raise children :-)

Sometimes I need to learn to sift through the fundie blogs better, because not every phrase certain moms use is automatically a bad thing.