Jinjer 40: Still Waiting for the Baby

[PainfullyAware]

It's shameful to look back at the common terms we thew around in highschool. It's important to realize how many common phrases (that kids especially) use have these bigoted histories and connotations. Part of what confused me as a teen was that many kids in the identity groups would use the same terms but I didn't understand what reclaiming a term meant. As an adult part of beginning to unlearn my own racism and white privilege was to see why my using the term was so different in meaning.

We were hardcore leftist activists too, which goes to prove again how political beliefs don't innoculate against racism. We used 'Ginos' instead of guido. A JAP was jewish american princess (insinuating rich and spoiled). White guys dressing like black hiphop stars were called 'wiggers'. We used gyped for someone ripping you off. Oh and wifebeaters for men in sleeveless shirts. And probably more.

We seemed really into categorizing everyone ...probably spent most of our time going after WASPS and Yuppies. I didn't see the difference at the time between me as a WASPs making fun of other WASPs and me making fun of a racialized group. It's just pretty awful. Let's never ever listen people railing against the PC police. Some terms are harmful and should never be used.

If reading those terms offends readers then please ask the mods to remove this post. I feel the tension between wanting to expose terms that some (white) people may not have realized are hurtful and racist and the pain of reading them from those who they target. 

[Nargus]

55 minutes ago, meowfundiecatz said:

I've wondered for a while if she had it done. This new picture also makes me wonder her hair routine. (The maternity photos also). Her hair looks so much better than before! Like, does she get treatments done? Better haircuts? Better products? Seriously, it looks really good to me.

I think it’s a combination of pregnancy hair and using higher quality haircare and styling products and tools. Jeremy seems like the kind of headship who would be ok with spending more so his arm candy can look her best. 

[Griftthatkeepsongrifting]

1 hour ago, Tim-Tom Biblethumper said:

Yes!  I was born in Dunedin (just a few miles north of "Mecca"), but grew up and lived in St. Pete 'til my divorce.  Moved to Clearwater and WHAT A DIFFERENCE!
The first time I drove through downtown I thought it was some sort of Postal convention with all the uniforms.
In truth, they've pretty much been staying inside since Leah's show.  The Flag buses pull right up to the door and drive them even if it's just a block or two.

Fellow Pinellas County native here-- born in Clearwater and grew up in Palm Harbor/Tarpon Springs! I used to beg my mother to drive around the Ft. Harrison so I could look for John Travolta. Good times. I remember when CoS bought the Ft. Harrison and I always wondered what it looked like renovated. 

We went to the Starbucks by the CoS last year and noticed the foot traffic was down considerably. 

[Shadoewolf]

We spent 3 years living on the "Nature Coast" part of Florida, Homosassa/Crystal River area. More small town, redneck, overly Christian kinda place. But I worked in Spring Hill which was better and both Tampa and Orlando were only 1.5 hours away. Though living in Key West was significantly more interesting!!

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

9 minutes ago, Griftthatkeepsongrifting said:

Fellow Pinellas County native here-- born in Clearwater and grew up in Palm Harbor/Tarpon Springs! I used to beg my mother to drive around the Ft. Harrison so I could look for John Travolta. Good times. I remember when CoS bought the Ft. Harrison and I always wondered what it looked like renovated. 

We went to the Starbucks by the CoS last year and noticed the foot traffic was down considerably. 

Yay!  Glad to see a fellow Pinellas person here.  

When I was a kid *way before the Scienos moved in* my Dad's company used to have their Christmas parties at the Ft. Harrison.  It was beautiful then, but I haven't been inside since.

I haven't seen Travolta or Cruise, but I've seen Kirstie three times....Publix, a downtown restaurant, and going inside FLAG (Ft. Harrison).  She's vile!

I stop at that same Starbucks you went to just to "sight-see" if I have to go to the Post Office.    

I'd answered a question about harassment upthread...and forgot to say....
Anytime our local paper (The Tampa Bay Times) publishes anything negative about the "church" it's impossible for me to find a newspaper.  My own gets stolen.  And all the grocery and convenience stores for a couple of miles are cleaned out.  I've been told by clerks that they (Scienos) come in and buy them all.  If they restock, they buy them all again.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

2 hours ago, GreenTea said:

Hey! Don't dis Cracker Barrel....

(snipped)

I could live without the deer head on the wall. That bothers me. 

Hmm, no deer head on the wall in the 2 or 3 locations of CB I've visited. Lots of old pictures, old advertisements, and a few lethal looking farm implements. We have plenty of restaurants and "bar and grill" places with dozens of taxidermy specimens in the mountain towns, but not in Cracker Barrel down here in the valley. I guess it's good that there's a little variety in a chain restaurant.

ETA--Well, whaddya know! I checked, and our CB does have a mounted deer head above the fireplace. 

Spoiler

I guess that compared to the saloon/bar/restaurant places I was remembering, a single head doesn't stick in my memory.

Spoiler

Prairie City, Oregon

Spoiler

Ketchum, Idaho

See! I learn something new on FJ all the time. Today I learned that I'm desensitized to taxidermy. 

[SweetJuly]

14 hours ago, ElToro said:

I, too, didn't notice what a shit Julian was. My kids are reading Enid Blyton at the moment... Even the updated versions are still startlingly classist, racist and just plain mean! All her characters are horrible to anyone 'weaker' than them... and being fat, spotty, not clever, poor etc is seen as a personal failing. Plus any kid who isn't posh is always depicted as dirty with poor personal hygiene. It's bizarre- but my kids picked up on it immediately, thank goodness!

I loved, loved, loved The Famous Five and especially the Adventure Series. I always wanted to also be able to go to exciting places and have wonderful adventures like the kids in these books did. Plus, I still really like the idea that doctors prescribe people to go somewhere warm and sunny after they have had an illness Need to badger my health insurance to send me to the Caribbean for two weeks after I've given birth. I need that to recover my strength!!

However, even as a child it bothered me that there were not many girls with whom I could identify in these stories. I wasn't girly and easily frightened like Anne, but I also didn't want to be a boy like George. I wanted to partake in the action and solving of the mysteries as an equal. Perhaps Dina from the Adventure series is a bit like me, though she (like all the other girls) often got excluded once things really got going. Even as a 7-year-old I got annoyed at sentences such as "This is too dangerous for you girls".

Also, perhaps because I was myself a brown-ish kid with foreign heritage and a weird name, I did notice and strongly dislike the stereotyping of and racism towards people who were "different" or from other countries (Africa, random Middle Eastern country, or even France). And the classism towards poor British people or travellers also bothered me.

So I am not sure if children reading these books run any risk of being "damaged" by the original texts, or end up buying the casual sexism and racism. If you grow up Dillard and have parents who reinforce all the garbage ideas, perhaps. But if you raise your child to be a decent person, rest assured that they will notice and dislike anything racist or sexist, while still enjoying the adventurous atmosphere of the books.

Side note: Fat people are unfortunately very, very often the butt of the joke in many books for children. Even in Harry Potter the Dursleys for some reason needed to be fat in addition to being simply awful and unpleasant.

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

17 minutes ago, SweetJuly said:

Side note: Fat people are unfortunately very, very often the butt of the joke in many books for children. Even in Harry Potter the Dursleys for some reason needed to be fat in addition to being simply awful and unpleasant.

I don’t disagree with you in general, but in the case of Harry Potter and the Dursleys it was only Uncle Vernon and Dudley who were fat, Aunt Petunia was overly thin. I think of it as being more symbolic of Dudley’s lack of control and lack of boundaries—-he was spoiled, with all the toys and sweets any child would want, and never told no. 

[SweetJuly]

2 minutes ago, AnnEggBlandHer? said:

I don’t disagree with you in general, but in the case of Harry Potter and the Dursleys it was only Uncle Vernon and Dudley who were fat, Aunt Petunia was overly thin. I think of it as being more symbolic of Dudley’s lack of control and lack of boundaries—-he was spoiled, with all the toys and sweets any child would want, and never told no. 

While writing I seemed to dimly remember that she indeed was thin but couldn't be bothered to double-check Anyway, I still don't like it. Why couldn't the Dursley be average-looking? Their looks don't matter, the personality does.

Come to think of it, I have always preferred it when there wasn't too much emphasis on a person's looks (whether good or bad) in anything I read. Give a brief description if you must, but if you overly focus on the physical traits of a character it can end up annoying and distracting from the story.

[VelociRapture]

7 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Long classic Italian sounding names are pretentious and frilly while short classic Anglo Saxon names are cute. Got it.

Btw Arabella is an ancient latinization of a Gaelic name, not an Italian name.

I think the names mentioned are really lovely. That said, I think Jeremy is a pretentious ass who would specifically want to use a lovely name like one of those because he wants to come across as super sophisticated in a way his in-laws aren’t. So my issue wouldn’t be with the names, but the potential intent in choosing them.

49 minutes ago, SweetJuly said:

I loved, loved, loved The Famous Five and especially the Adventure Series. I always wanted to also be able to go to exciting places and have wonderful adventures like the kids in these books did. Plus, I still really like the idea that doctors prescribe people to go somewhere warm and sunny after they have had an illness Need to badger my health insurance to send me to the Caribbean for two weeks after I've given birth. I need that to recover my strength!!

However, even as a child it bothered me that there were not many girls with whom I could identify in these stories. I wasn't girly and easily frightened like Anne, but I also didn't want to be a boy like George. I wanted to partake in the action and solving of the mysteries as an equal. Perhaps Dina from the Adventure series is a bit like me, though she (like all the other girls) often got excluded once things really got going. Even as a 7-year-old I got annoyed at sentences such as "This is too dangerous for you girls".

Also, perhaps because I was myself a brown-ish kid with foreign heritage and a weird name, I did notice and strongly dislike the stereotyping of and racism towards people who were "different" or from other countries (Africa, random Middle Eastern country, or even France). And the classism towards poor British people or travellers also bothered me.

So I am not sure if children reading these books run any risk of being "damaged" by the original texts, or end up buying the casual sexism and racism. If you grow up Dillard and have parents who reinforce all the garbage ideas, perhaps. But if you raise your child to be a decent person, rest assured that they will notice and dislike anything racist or sexist, while still enjoying the adventurous atmosphere of the books.

Side note: Fat people are unfortunately very, very often the butt of the joke in many books for children. Even in Harry Potter the Dursleys for some reason needed to be fat in addition to being simply awful and unpleasant.

To be fair, there are thin characters who were unpleasant as well - Aunt Petunia for one. Fleur Delacour was kind of unpleasant as well at first. And we can’t forget Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort. He’s described as pretty thin as well and he goes around attempting to off toddlers. 

[tabitha2]

In much literature if you look at it it’s the Thin characters who are Antagonist Petunia, Aunt Spiker in The Giant Peach are famous but if a character in described as thin or gaunt they are probably going to stingy, prissy and cold. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

I think I understand what those who are trying to communicate when they say Italian-based/Italian-sounding names are pretentious - it's not that they're pretentious, in and of themselves, but they're pretentious in our (supposed) melting pot of cultures--especially when these Violettas, Elisabettas, Vivianas, and Giuseppinas are surrounded by Graces, Emilys, Abbys, and Hannahs.

 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

I think the names mentioned are really lovely. That said, I think Jeremy is a pretentious ass who would specifically want to use a lovely name like one of those because he wants to come across as super sophisticated in a way his in-laws aren’t. So my issue wouldn’t be with the names, but the potential intent in choosing them.

To be fair, there are thin characters who were unpleasant as well - Aunt Petunia for one. Fleur Delacour was kind of unpleasant as well at first. And we can’t forget Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort. He’s described as pretty thin as well and he goes around attempting to off toddlers. 

And quoting myself, but whatever:

All three Malfoys are described as thin or slim. I see the Malfoys as being similar to the Dursleys in a lot of ways to be honest - both are convinced that people not like them are bad news, they both have a deep loathing for Harry, the sons in both families spend the majority of Harry’s childhood bullying him, the mothers in both families do unexpected things out of love (Narcissa betrays Voldemort so she has a chance to protect her son and Petunia takes in Harry after he was orphaned out of love for her sister), both fathers never ease up on their deep dislike/hatred for Harry, and both sons eventually are able to at least civilly coexist with Harry. The main differences, in my opinion, are simply that one family are muggles while the other is pure blood and one family has all thin members while the other doesn’t. 

You also have Molly Weasley who is described as being round or plump, but who is also one of the most loving and strong characters in the books. Or Neville Longbottom, who is also described as being round early on. He’s a target for bullying about his lack of magical abilities, not because he’s a bit overweight. 

[Screamapillar]

7 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I guess that compared to the saloon/bar/restaurant places I was remembering, a single head doesn't stick in my memory.

See! I learn something new on FJ all the time. Today I learned that I'm desensitized to taxidermy. 

Those pictures are the manifestation of my worst nightmares. One family vacation in Tahoe as a teenager I spent most of the time hiding behind my 6'4 brother so his imposing frame would shield me from being caught off guard by surprise taxidermy.

Is Rufus still prominent in the Vuolo household? *shudder*

[louisa05]

9 hours ago, GreenTea said:

Hey! Don't dis Cracker Barrel. It's a fine restaurant. It's not home cooking, but if you want some vegetables instead of fast food it's good. I often go there for lunch with family. I get fish, okra, cinnamon apples, and biscuits. It's a nice, filling meal (that I don't have to make, a major plus being that I hate cooking!)

I could live without the deer head on the wall. That bothers me. 

But they aren't charging me twenty dollars for fancy coffee and a small egg sandwich like Starbucks! 

There are a couple of regional chains around here where you can get a good breakfast for less money and the menu is more varied than eggs + meat + starch or pancakes with the first three on the side. Plus the coffee doesn't suck. 

I just get sick of the in-laws either grilling meat at their house that makes my stomach sick, getting deli fried chicken, feeding us frozen entrees from Costco or making us go to Cracker Barrel for breakfast. There are other options. And my offers to cook are always turned down. 

(Tomorrow will be option A)

[Kailash]

13 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Sunday for breakfast with the in-laws. I really don't like breakfast there. No omelets or frittatas or benedict... I never really know what to order. 

And the in-laws are obsessed with going to breakfast there for family events like Mother's or Father's Day instead of having a nice brunch or dinner at a normal restaurant. 

Here in Kansas you can order an omelet, but they aren’t on the menu. Next time you’re forced to go, ask if they’ll make you one.

[Jellybean]

9 hours ago, PainfullyAware said:

It's shameful to look back at the common terms we thew around in highschool. It's important to realize how many common phrases (that kids especially) use have these bigoted histories and connotations. Part of what confused me as a teen was that many kids in the identity groups would use the same terms but I didn't understand what reclaiming a term meant. As an adult part of beginning to unlearn my own racism and white privilege was to see why my using the term was so different in meaning.

We were hardcore leftist activists too, which goes to prove again how political beliefs don't innoculate against racism. We used 'Ginos' instead of guido. A JAP was jewish american princess (insinuating rich and spoiled). White guys dressing like black hiphop stars were called 'wiggers'. We used gyped for someone ripping you off. Oh and wifebeaters for men in sleeveless shirts. And probably more.

We seemed really into categorizing everyone ...probably spent most of our time going after WASPS and Yuppies. I didn't see the difference at the time between me as a WASPs making fun of other WASPs and me making fun of a racialized group. It's just pretty awful. Let's never ever listen people railing against the PC police. Some terms are harmful and should never be used.

If reading those terms offends readers then please ask the mods to remove this post. I feel the tension between wanting to expose terms that some (white) people may not have realized are hurtful and racist and the pain of reading them from those who they target. 

I agree that it’s embarrassing to look back at the prejudices that were seen as normal, but I think it’s important not to gloss over those histories. It’s hard to find the balance between acknowledging the bias and prejudices that were part of everyday speech and trying to make sure  that those phrases/words/slurs are no longer seen as acceptable.

The Washington Post recently printed a disclaimer that’s used in Tom & Jerry cartoons that have racist/other themes that are (thankfully) now viewed as unacceptable:

Quote

"The cartoons you are about to see are products of their time. They may depict some of the ethnic and racial prejudices that were common place in American society. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. While the following does not represent the Warner Bros. view of today's society, these cartoons are being presented as they were originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

 

[bekkah]

Talking about Scientology. Citypages in the twin cities recently wrote about the church. 

 

http://www.citypages.com/news/inside-the-twin-cities-dwindling-scientology-movement/478085193

[karen77]

9 hours ago, Tim-Tom Biblethumper said:

Yay!  Glad to see a fellow Pinellas person here.  

When I was a kid *way before the Scienos moved in* my Dad's company used to have their Christmas parties at the Ft. Harrison.  It was beautiful then, but I haven't been inside since.

I haven't seen Travolta or Cruise, but I've seen Kirstie three times....Publix, a downtown restaurant, and going inside FLAG (Ft. Harrison).  She's vile!

I stop at that same Starbucks you went to just to "sight-see" if I have to go to the Post Office.    

I'd answered a question about harassment upthread...and forgot to say....
Anytime our local paper (The Tampa Bay Times) publishes anything negative about the "church" it's impossible for me to find a newspaper.  My own gets stolen.  And all the grocery and convenience stores for a couple of miles are cleaned out.  I've been told by clerks that they (Scienos) come in and buy them all.  If they restock, they buy them all again.

They should print more stories then! The papers are so popular they sell out! haha.

[PainfullyAware]

22 minutes ago, Jellybean said:

I agree that it’s embarrassing to look back at the prejudices that were seen as normal, but I think it’s important not to gloss over those histories

It's really important we teach those histories and I couldn't agree more. That's why I posted my own experience, like others, in case it gets someone else to rethink their choices or reflect on their own internal biases.

But I do think there are some forums where getting white people to rethink their privilege shouldn't trump the sensitivity towards a racialized group who says I don't want to have to confront these terms in this setting. Like in a classroom with children, showing a lot of derogatory cartoons and movies and books could ultimately reproduce the harm towards the children belonging to the stereotyped groups that you're trying to avoid. There was a controversy recently about a teacher trying to do something like that to teach the history of slavery and some of the parents felt that their kids were being singled out for their background and othered in the process. So I feel like it's important to just say even in a discussion online that if someone feels uncomfortable then the discussion should move on or be moderated. This more of an aside just in case issue rather than a massive issue that I'm trying to raise.

[libgirl2]

11 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

@Tim-Tom Biblethumper,  I was just thinking about Archie Bunker!  He used to throw that epithet around a good bit along with "spic" and "Hebe".

Oh, and "fairy".  All in the Family had a number of episodes where they confronted prejudice against LGBTQ people.  The most famous ones involved the drag queen Beverley LaSalle and there was one about Mike's friend who wasn't butch enough for Archie.  The friend happened to be straight, but Arch was telling a very macho friend about the friend of Mike's at Kelsey's and the guy says to Arch, "Have you ever seen me with a woman?"

I remember that episode clearly. Mike's friend was played by Tony Geary  (Luke on GH) and Archie's football macho friend was Phil Carey (I believe) who was Asa Buchanan on OLTL! 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Kailash said:

Here in Kansas you can order an omelet, but they aren’t on the menu. Next time you’re forced to go, ask if they’ll make you one.

We went to one in South FL last year and I remember not knowing what to pick from the menu. None of us (4 adults + 1 child) enjoyed the meal.  We do not have CB where I live. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@VelociRapture and @SapphireSlytherin YES! This is what I meant. As with Jeremy & Audrey Roloff's daughter Ember, if anyone else had given their child that name I would think it was cute, but since it was those two it sounds pretentious and obnoxious.  Jeremy just comes off as a pompous poser, a nice shiny turd in a Tiffany's box, and sadly Jinger is his arm candy, she's there to look pretty, smile, and agree with everything he says.   

[louisa05]

13 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

We went to one in South FL last year and I remember not knowing what to pick from the menu. None of us (4 adults + 1 child) enjoyed the meal.  We do not have CB where I live. 

I feel like I was raised with totally different food than Mr. 05. The notion of fried catfish and grits for breakfast is just a big no for me. 

And the irony of that is that his dumbass sister tries to be all pretentious about food and while doing that acts like I'm a moron who can't cook a frozen pizza and has never eaten anything more sophisticated than a hamburger and am, thus, holding her brother's tastes back. No, honey, just no. You grew up eating instant grits and deli fried chicken. I grew up learning to cook real food and having fresh fruits and vegetables at almost every meal. Hell, I had rye bread for my sandwich in my lunch in high school most days while they were eating Wonder Bread and Twinkies. I have elevated her brother's tastes. He won't eat canned soup anymore and his favorite dish is coq au vin. 

[finnlassie]

I took a nap, had a dream that Jinger gave birth, woke up in panic to check FJ if it's true. It's not. GDI!