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Georgiana

Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

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Georgiana

Do clothes make the fundie?  Or is it something more?  FJ discusses the nature of fundie-dom and how it is defined.  Also probably the Dillards will eventually do something stupid, and we'll talk about them here too. 

Continued from:

 

Also the naming convention of the title is taken from my Catholic school family directory that listed all families by the father, and then put the mother's first name in parentheses.  Even as a 5th grader I was deeply offended and wanted to lodge a complaint.  But everything happens for a reason, and sometimes that reason is that you learn an offensive and marginalizing way to list families so you can offend and marginalize Derick Dillard.  

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Knight of Ni

Conversations about religion in schools makes me think of a demonstration one of my high school teachers did to illustrate what the first amendment really means. 

One year he had a Hindu student in class and the other students would constantly try to preach and evangelize to her. They thought that freedom of religion meant that people could be any type of Christian they wanted. One day he started class by telling them that he had started a new religion and the god would be the classroom trash can that he named Bob. His new religion was called Bobism. He wanted all the students in the class to convert to Bobism. He did it to demonstrate that people were free to worship whatever they wanted. 

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Depressed
formergothardite
Quote

Can you HONESTLY say that Jinger and Jill (despite how crazy & hateful Derick is) currently follow the IFB standards of Biblical Separation?
Jill has now admitted to going to the movie theater and listening to CCM music.  Whatever you want to label them, Gothardites, IFB, super fundie  IFB, etc. they typically wear skirts to the knee (at minimum), cover their shoulders, do not go to movie theaters, and do not listen to music as they view them as part of the world and worldly entertainment.

@luv2laugh Yep. Sure can. Seriously, do you truly not understand that all IFB aren't skirt wearing, homeschooling, avoiding movie theaters types? 

This picture is from an IFB church in NC.

Spoiler

Michaels-Iphone-2016-6-21-690.jpg

Another IFB church in NC. Seriously, Jill and Jinger are doing nothing that people would give them the side eye over in the majority of IFB churches I know. 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by formergothardite
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Waffle Time
Lisafer

I think Fundamentalism gets confused with Gothardism sometimes.

Followers of Bill Gothard are fundamentalists, but not all fundamentalists are followers of Bill Gothard. (I say "follower of Bill Gothard" instead of "IFB" because, as feministxtian demonstrates, not all IFB church members are necessarily fundie). 

Examples of other groups who hold fundamentalist positions:

RPCNA (anti-gay, anti-choice, patriarchal). No required dress code.

SBC (officially stated position is anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-women in pastoral positions). I've seen Southern Baptists wear anything from dresses to Daisy Dukes.

Assemblies of God (anti-gay, anti-choice, but not as patriarchal as some other churches). Again, I've seen AofG members wear pretty much anything. P.S. AofG disapproves of the "mystic arts." They can kiss my broomstick.

Ugh. Was this helpful at all? If some of you are members of these denominations, I mean no offense. I know that there are people in these churches who love and support LGBTQ people, who support women's freedom of reproductive choice, and do not endorse patriarchy. I'm only saying that the official position of these groups is very fundamentalist. And that it has nothing to do with pants. 

 

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TheOneAndOnly

Re clothes - When I was a kid "dress code" included wearing shoes. If you weren't wearing shoes you were not dressed. You may as well be not wearing anything at all as to go around barefoot. The feeling of sick horror I felt when I went to a friend's house and her mom told us to take our shoes off before coming inside was real, and I feel it again every time I think of that day. (If anyone was wondering, no I did NOT take off my shoes at my friend's house! I stayed outside, fully dressed thankyouverymuch, until the rest of the group came back outside.) As an adult I've gotten better about such things but the very idea of not wearing shoes! At someone's house where there are people around! :pearlclutching: I think I was exposed to some very weird adults when I was a small child.

Speaking of weird adults, thanks to Jill's recipe section of her page I bought canned chicken for the first time in my life. I put it with some stuffing and vegetables, like I sometimes do with baked cubed chicken. The canned stuff was preserved in salted water and so had a too-tender texture and was slightly flavored like Vienna sausages or potted meat, but just slightly. It was... okay, I guess. Better than nothing certainly. Not something I would serve if I were hosting on Come Dine With Me but I could see myself using  it at home once in a while.

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SilverBeach

From the prior thread "Ben didn’t. And told the world about it too." 

This is noteworthy because Ben is an exception among the Duggars/Bates (this is in reference to a statement I made about all fundies voting for Trump). I appreciate Ben's efforts at thinking critically and not slavishly following the party line. If there are more higher-profile fundies out there who don't support Trump, it would be nice if they would be more vocal about it. Fundies like JRod make it clear that Trump is God's choice, as do many evangelicals/fundigelicals in general. I don't pretend to know all fundies (even though I did use that word), and some may be fearful of the backlash that may result from coming out as a non-Trumper, but based on publicly available information, Trump is the fundy man of choice. That said, of course not all Trump voters/supporters are fundies.

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mydoggoskeeper
22 minutes ago, TheOneAndOnly said:

Re clothes - When I was a kid "dress code" included wearing shoes. If you weren't wearing shoes you were not dressed. You may as well be not wearing anything at all as to go around barefoot. The feeling of sick horror I felt when I went to a friend's house and her mom told us to take our shoes off before coming inside was real, and I feel it again every time I think of that day. (If anyone was wondering, no I did NOT take off my shoes at my friend's house! I stayed outside, fully dressed thankyouverymuch, until the rest of the group came back outside.) As an adult I've gotten better about such things but the very idea of not wearing shoes! At someone's house where there are people around! :pearlclutching: I think I was exposed to some very weird adults when I was a small child.

Speaking of weird adults, thanks to Jill's recipe section of her page I bought canned chicken for the first time in my life. I put it with some stuffing and vegetables, like I sometimes do with baked cubed chicken. The canned stuff was preserved in salted water and so had a too-tender texture and was slightly flavored like Vienna sausages or potted meat, but just slightly. It was... okay, I guess. Better than nothing certainly. Not something I would serve if I were hosting on Come Dine With Me but I could see myself using  it at home once in a while.

Yikes! You would probably be very uncomfortable in many Asian countries!

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Palimpsest
50 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

I think Fundamentalism gets confused with Gothardism sometimes.

Yes, but usually only on Duggar threads.  The Duggars are Gateway Fundies for many and some new people aren't familiar with all the twists and turns of Christian Fundamentalism.  Also we have a few members who are hard to educate even when the distinctions have been discussed and debated thousand times.

Here we go again.  Christian Fundamentalism: 

  • A movement that began in the late 1800 and 1900 primarily in the US, although some Brits joined in.
  • Protestants who rejected the then current doctrines and believe in the Fundamentals, one of which is Biblical Inerrancy - or that the Bible is literally true. 
  • They include many different Protestant denominations, and sub-groups and splinter groups of those denominations. 
  • There are too many different groups to list although we mainly discuss the more extreme Baptists and Calvinists here.
  • They can also be "nondenominational."
  • There is a big overlap with denominations and churches that call themselves "Evangelical."
  • They tend in the US to be very right wing.
  • Some of them are so right wing they are literally underground groups.
  • Some are even part of the sovereign citizens movement

Fundamentalism is not evil in itself, it is when it is taken to extremes by people like Gothard (but not limited to Gothard) that it becomes dangerous.

To whit: we discuss the extreme Fundamentalist Christian Patriarchal Movement and its off-shoot the Quiverfull Movement as well as IBLP and Gothardism. 

Gothard started a para-church.  IBLP.  Some of us think it was a cult.   Gothardism seemed attractive mostly to SBC and IFB-type Baptists but I'm sure he wouldn't have kicked out any Presbyterians.  IBLP and Gothard were rather anti-intellectual and anti-college, probably because critical thinking skills would make people see through the scam.  Gothard had clothing rules that not everyone agreed with - and it looks as though IBLP is relaxing them after the Fall of Gothard.

I always think of Christian Fundamentalism as a huge Venn diagram with many overlapping groups.  You just have to see where people fit when it comes to their hate filled beliefs.

Because at the core of Extreme Christian Fundamentalism are those beliefs that subjugate women and promote hatred for anything other than Straight White *Right Kind of Christian* Male.

 

Edited by Palimpsest
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nickelodeon

Some other Duggar-adjacent fundies were rather anti-Trump online - I think it was the Bowers(??) that were really into Ted Cruz, and one of their daughters posted bitterly after the Trump nomination. John Shrader was also super anti-Trump during the primaries, then changed his mind and supported him, then changed his mind again and opposed him again, or something like that.

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Palimpsest
7 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

John Shrader was also super anti-Trump during the primaries, then changed his mind and supported him,

I think Shrader ended up supporting Trump but it took some gymnastics.  The Maxwells supported Ted Cruz, but went very quiet when he was out of the race.

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SilverBeach
12 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

Some other Duggar-adjacent fundies were rather anti-Trump online - I think it was the Bowers(??) that were really into Ted Cruz, and one of their daughters posted bitterly after the Trump nomination. John Shrader was also super anti-Trump during the primaries, then changed his mind and supported him, then changed his mind again and opposed him again, or something like that.

Ted Cruz wasn't much better as far as I'm concerned.

22 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Because at the core of Extreme Christian Fundamentalism are those beliefs that subjugate women and promote hatred for anything other than Straight White *Right Kind of Christian* Male.

SAY IT!!!

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nickelodeon

Yeah, Ted Cruz is the actual worst and the fundies I mentioned clung to him over Trump because fundies looove Dominionism. I was just nitpicking the idea that all fundies have rallied around Trump.

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Waffle Time
Lisafer
21 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Yes, but usually only on Duggar threads.  The Duggars are Gateway Fundies for many and some new people aren't familiar with all the twists and turns of Christian Fundamentalism.  Also we have a few members who are hard to educate even when the distinctions have been discussed and debated thousand times.

Here we go again.  Christian Fundamentalism: 

  • A movement that began in the late 1800 and 1900 primarily in the US, although some Brits joined in.
  • Protestants who rejected the then current doctrines and believe in the Fundamentals, one of which is Biblical Inerrancy - or that the Bible is literally true. 
  • They include many different Protestant denominations, and sub-groups and splinter groups of those denominations. 
  • There are too many different groups to list although we mainly discuss the more extreme Baptists and Calvinists here.
  • They can also be "nondenominational."
  • There is a big overlap with denominations and churches that call themselves "Evangelical."
  • They tend in the US to be very right wing.
  • Some of them are so right wing they are literally underground groups.
  • Some are even part of the sovereign citizens movement

Fundamentalism is not evil in itself, it is when it is taken to extremes by people like Gothard (but not limited to Gothard) that it becomes dangerous.

To whit: we discuss the extreme Fundamentalist Christian Patriarchal Movement and its off-shoot the Quiverfull Movement as well as IBLP and Gothardism. 

Gothard started a para-church.  IBLP.  Some of us think it was a cult.   Gothardism seemed attractive mostly to SBC and IFB-type Baptists but I'm sure he wouldn't have kicked out any Presbyterians.  IBLP and Gothard were rather anti-intellectual and anti-college, probably because critical thinking skills would make people see through the scam.  Gothard had clothing rules that not everyone agreed with - and it looks as though IBLP is relaxing them after the Fall of Gothard.

I always think of Christian Fundamentalism as a huge Venn diagram with many overlapping groups.  You just have to see where people fit when it comes to their hate filled beliefs.

Because at the core of Extreme Christian Fundamentalism are those beliefs that subjugate women and promote hatred for anything other than Straight White *Right Kind of Christian* Male.

 

@Palimpsest somebody should make a Venn diagram!  But why are some people overly focused on the clothing choices? 

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libgirl2
48 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

From the prior thread "Ben didn’t. And told the world about it too." 

This is noteworthy because Ben is an exception among the Duggars/Bates (this is in reference to a statement I made about all fundies voting for Trump). I appreciate Ben's efforts at thinking critically and not slavishly following the party line. If there are more higher-profile fundies out there who don't support Trump, it would be nice if they would be more vocal about it. Fundies like JRod make it clear that Trump is God's choice, as do many evangelicals/fundigelicals in general. I don't pretend to know all fundies (even though I did use that word), and some may be fearful of the backlash that may result from coming out as a non-Trumper, but based on publicly available information, Trump is the fundy man of choice. That said, of course not all Trump voters/supporters are fundies.

I had a discussion about this with a friend of a friend on FB. I tried to explain that I don't think Trump was anointed by God, that I thought God stayed clear of politics. I was told "don't preach to me".  The woman didn't strike me as being particular fundy. 

Best friend's husband who is Evangelical couldn't get himself to vote for Trump and wrote in Cruz. 

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Leftitinmysnood

Just a drive-by comment to say that voting for Trump shouldn't be a marker of fundamentalism as most of the fundies we knew didn't allow their womenfolk to vote at all and some didn't believe in participating in the travesty that was a worldly government.

Also, after a visit to a theme park last week, I can still identify a shorts-wearing fundie maiden a mile away. I think it matches Potter Stewart's definition of obscenity: "I'll know it when I see it."

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VeryNikeSeamstress

Slightly OT, but the guy who served me at my local cannabis dispensery today looked an awful lot like Hippie Jesus D'Wreck.

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formergothardite

Not all Gothards were IFB. Not all IFB were Gothardites. Not all Gothardites are skirts only.Not all IFB are skirts only.  Not all homeschoolers are fundie. Not all fundies homeschool. Not all fundies think alcohol is a sin. Not all fundies think dancing is a sin. Not all fundies are 1611 KJV only. Not all fundies think tattoos/piercings are a sin There is a hell of a lot of diversity in Christian fundamentalism. To say someone isn't fundie because they don't do one thing that some fundies do doesn't make sense. 

11 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

But why are some people overly focused on the clothing choices? 

I think it is because for some people their main exposure to fundie beliefs is the Duggars/Bates and those families sort of made it seem like all Gothard followers/IFB behave like they do. So when one of the Duggar/Bates start wearing normal clothes it is seen as them not being fundie when instead they switched from being one sort of a fundie to being another. Hell, they haven't really done anything that wouldn't be Gothard/IFB approved. 

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VelociRapture
14 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

@Palimpsest somebody should make a Venn diagram!  But why are some people overly focused on the clothing choices? 

I’m in no way an expert, but I’d guess that a visible sign is easier to grasp than a theological position. It was for me at first. It took some time, Patience, abd a lot of listening to people like @formergotharditefor me to start to understand better. 

I think there’s also the fact that people have watched these kids grow up on television (the Bateses and Duggars specifically.) People start to feel like they know them and it’s easy to want to cheer for any little sign they may be moving away from fundamentalism. 

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AliceInFundyland
10 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

@Palimpsest somebody should make a Venn diagram!  But why are some people overly focused on the clothing choices? 

The Duggars (and Bates) made a BIG!!!! deal about it being part of their  convictions. They really focused on it. And they didn't particularly talk about IFB or ATI or anything at all concerning what their beliefs actually are. So, as people have found their way here, many of them via the Bates and Duggars, they have learned (or not learned) the actual significance of skirts.

And so much debate has ensued as the adult girls have moved away from it.

The families do not, imo, help anything by refusing to say anything about it. At least Alyssa addressed the issue. I wish the girls would just say, yep I changed my mind on -this- issue.

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NakedKnees

Without meaning to come off as more respectful toward Ben Seewald than he deserves, I do think it takes courage to publicly go against the grain of your community. I wouldn't be surprised if fundie kidults or women needed to be quiet about opinions on Trump as a survival mechanism, but who knows. 

I spend a lot of time with communists and far-left socialists, and it's often like talking to a wall to try to get anyone to admit to sexism, "machismo," racism, ableism, homophobia etc. in our own ranks. If bible-believers can't see that Trump isn't a man of God, then I don't know what they'll go against the grain to stand up for (no, fetuses absolutely don't count).

41 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

snip

Here we go again.  Christian Fundamentalism: 

  • A movement that began in the late 1800 and 1900 primarily in the US, although some Brits joined in.
  • Protestants who rejected the then current doctrines and believe in the Fundamentals, one of which is Biblical Inerrancy - or that the Bible is literally true. 
  • They include many different Protestant denominations, and sub-groups and splinter groups of those denominations. 
  • There are too many different groups to list although we mainly discuss the more extreme Baptists and Calvinists here.
  • They can also be "nondenominational."
  • There is a big overlap with denominations and churches that call themselves "Evangelical."
  • They tend in the US to be very right wing.
  • Some of them are so right wing they are literally underground groups.
  • Some are even part of the sovereign citizens movement

snip

 

This is a really helpful list, and I like it. However, I thought the first and second great awakenings in the US contributed greatly to rise of fundamentalism. Am I thinking of evangelism or baptism or something else?

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Palimpsest
11 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

@Palimpsest somebody should make a Venn diagram! 

I tried once.  Somewhere around the 20th draft (around the Fall of the Tool) the whole lot reshuffled and I ripped it up.  And cried.

Quote

But why are some people overly focused on the clothing choices? 

I really have no idea.  Because focusing on the beliefs is too challenging? 

Neither IFB nor Gothardites were ever all skirts-only.  And even the skirts-only poster families for Gothardism, like the Bateses and Duggars, were changing from Frumper-wear to Modern Modest long before the older children got married.  Fashions change even in Fundiedom.

1 minute ago, NakedKnees said:

However, I thought the first and second great awakenings in the US contributed greatly to rise of fundamentalism. Am I thinking of evangelism or baptism or something else?

Quite correct. The Great Awakenings were very important to the development of these ideas.   Fundamentalism and Protestant mega-evangelistic churches are sort of parallel movements in the same timeframe with a huge overlap.  Scholars argue about whether or not they are the same thing all the time.

In my non-scholarly opinion, people can be very evangelical without being actual Bible Literalists so that is where I personally draw a line. :)

 

 

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Waffle Time
Lisafer

I guess I can see where it would all be confusing to a lot of people. Heck, I was raised fundie and this discussion, although interesting and important, is making my brain hurt! 

Side note: my fundie parents don't vote at all. Something about government being corrupt and all politicians being corrupt. Which, yeah, the government is corrupt, but I don't think avoidance is the solution.

@Palimpsest sorry about your diagram not working out. I had a word processor eat a story draft once. All that work down the drain. :crying-blue:

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nastyhobbitses
42 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I think Shrader ended up supporting Trump but it took some gymnastics.  The Maxwells supported Ted Cruz, but went very quiet when he was out of the race.

I know that the (Apostolic/Pentecostal) Chelsea Pomeroy lady with the kids she dressed like Fundie Harajuku girls we were snarking on for a hot second and then she made her Instagram private is insanely pro-Trump to the point where it's kinda creepy and worrying.

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BullyJBG
19 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

families do not, imo, help anything by refusing to say anything about it. At least Alyssa addressed the issue. I wish the girls would just say, yep I changed my mind on -this- issue.

Where did I miss that part? Besides taking a break from social media because everyone was being too negative, and saying that she wasn't responsible for others' dirty minds?

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NakedKnees
23 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

The Duggars (and Bates) made a BIG!!!! deal about it being part of their  convictions. They really focused on it. And they didn't particularly talk about IFB or ATI or anything at all concerning what their beliefs actually are. So, as people have found their way here, many of them via the Bates and Duggars, they have learned (or not learned) the actual significance of skirts.

And so much debate has ensued as the adult girls have moved away from it.

The families do not, imo, help anything by refusing to say anything about it. At least Alyssa addressed the issue. I wish the girls would just say, yep I changed my mind on -this- issue.

I think a reason they made a big deal out of being skirts-only was just because it was more palatable for public image. In the early Duggar episodes, they were more open about teaching ATI, "character qualities," and that disturbing "obedience" moment with Michelle and one of the howlers unhappily sitting in a chair, but all of that is weird. You know what's not weird? SKIRTS!!1

It would be cool if Jill or Jinger admitted that they changed their mind on this issue, but it would be even cooler if they admitted it was their parents' rule all along and never really Jill or Jinger's own choice to begin with.

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