Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

[formergothardite]

40 minutes ago, Greendoor said:

Fundy's belive in End Times.  God will judge, sort, condemn and otherwise choose a few who believe like me but not all.  So desperation, and paranoia; we are all going to die and there's no guarantee of mercy.  Hence the crazyiness in their families and lifestyle. 

Except SBC(which a lot of conservative Christians attend) in this area are totally into the End Times, end of the world prophecy and all that crazy shit. John Hagee wrote a book about the four blood moons and a lot of the conservative Christians I run into were all into it. 

As for the bolded, I wasn't really taught that growing up. I was taught that God is very merciful, but just, so as long as you said the sinner's prayer(John Shrader probably wouldn't approve), made a public confession of faith and got baptized you didn't have a thing to worry about. That was in the IFB church. They were very much Once Saved, Always Saved. 

Here is an article about End Times and evangelicals. End Times beliefs isn't just for the extreme fundies. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201712/end-times-beliefs-are-extreme-and-extremely-influential

Quote

“Evangelicals are ecstatic” about the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital “for Israel to us is a sacred place,” explained pastor Paula White, who led the invocation at Trump’s inauguration. The restoration of Israel, along with various events incidental thereto, is seen as a necessary condition for the End Times.

Quote

But as we see with the recent policy change on Jerusalem, End Times thinking is influencing policy at the highest levels. 

 

[Lisafer]

2 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

So the FLDS don't think others should be forced to abide by their morality, they just thing everyone is evil and they should "bleed the beast."  They are definitely fundie, they even claim it!  So I don't think this can be our limiting factor.

I defer to you on the FLDS, I really don't have any knowledge there and no time to research right this second 

@Greendoor I'm mainly saying eschatology is the wrong focus for defining fundamentalism. @Palimpsest provided us a nice helpful explanation a couple pages back. 

[subsaharanafrica]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

The Christian Fundamentalist Movement complicated matters by co-opting the word Fundamentalist and developing the Fundamentals:

• The inerrancy of the Bible
• The literal nature of the biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles and the Creation account in Genesis
• The virgin birth of Christ
• The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
• The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross

So technically if someone doesn't believe in one or more of the above then they are not a Protestant Fundamentalist

 

See, I more or less believe all of that and I would call myself a fundamentalist. I’m also not a Protestant. 

There is a book that I find kind of fascinating called Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, by a guy who grew up in the middle of the Moody Bible Institute. He provides a definition of what it means to be a Christian  fundamentalist from the people who actually define themselves as Christian fundamentalists.  I’m not at home at the moment so I can’t pull it out but he includes things like pre (or was it post?) millennialism. 

[albireo]

56 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

For me, a person is a fundie when they adhere to a strict, legalistic interpretation of a religion or doctrine AND seek to force that interpretation onto others (via any means) AND reject, ignore, or attack secular scholarship that disagrees with them. 

Would you consider that to include isolated fundamentalist families/communities who only seek to force their interpretation on their own circles? I keep thinking of Papa Pilgrim, but there are other families like that. Hell, I think I'd consider the Amish fundie since they're so legalistic, and they don't have much interest in interacting with the English other than through business transactions.

[Rachel333]

I was under the impression that Christian Fundamentalism basically coined the term fundamentalism and from there it started to get used more widely.

22 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

As for the bolded, I wasn't really taught that growing up that God is very merciful, but just, so as long as you said the sinner's prayer(John Shrader probably wouldn't approve), made a public confession of faith and got baptized you didn't have a thing to worry about. That was in the IFB church. They were very much Once Saved, Always Saved. 

Yes, a lot of the fundamentalists beliefs and practices are because they believe that's what God wants from them, not because they think you're necessarily going to Hell without those beliefs and practices

See also: Jewish people, who often don't have a particular belief at all in the afterlife, and yet one would have trouble arguing that the extreme orthodox sects aren't fundamentalist.

Actually, a lot of this discussion is very Christiancentric, which makes sense as we mostly talk about Christians, but it's worth remembering that a lot of this doesn't really apply to other religions, who have their fundies as well.

[Georgiana]

28 minutes ago, albireo said:

Would you consider that to include isolated fundamentalist families/communities who only seek to force their interpretation on their own circles? I keep thinking of Papa Pilgrim, but there are other families like that. Hell, I think I'd consider the Amish fundie since they're so legalistic, and they don't have much interest in interacting with the English other than through business transactions.

I consider children above a certain age "other people".  So if a group is rigid and extreme about forcing their beliefs onto their children past the age of reason, if they do not tolerate their children having minor dissent or individual beliefs, if they seek to keep their children in their "group" by employing other means of manipulation and control, then I consider that forcing their beliefs onto others.    Sure they restrict who they force their beliefs on more than your "average" fundie, but they still do it.

So I do consider Amish to be fundamentalists, I just consider them to be more benign fundies than the norm.  Ditto to FLDS, though they are hardly benign.    

Edit: If ANYONE has to "escape" your religion/religious group, you're a fundie.  You might ALSO be a cult, but you're at least a fundamentalist sect.  

[Rachel333]

I don't consider the Amish to be particularly benign. I think they get way too much of a pass just because they seem so nice and quaint.

[Georgiana]

10 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I don't consider the Amish to be particularly benign. I think they get way too much of a pass just because they seem so nice and quaint.

I actually agree with you.  The distinction I was trying to make is that unlike the Derick Dillards of the world, the Amish aren't engaged in trying to force the outside world to conform to their beliefs.  But I absolutely agree with you, and I worded it very poorly.

The damage the Amish do to their children is VERY real, and personally I object to the education exemptions they are given.  I believe children have rights, and I do not believe a parent has a right to withhold a proper education from a child, no matter WHAT their religious beliefs are.  I think for too long the Amish have gotten a pass on their behavior, and I think we need to reassess the exemptions they are given with what we now know about cults and the methods by which cults trap the next generation.  

[justoneoftwo]

Okay, on this same topic, what is a cult vs religion?  

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Georgiana said:

Another reason why fundamentalism is so hard to nail down is that it is generally a term APPLIED to people, not one they use themselves.  If you want to know whether someone is Catholic, Lutheran, Muslim, etc.: ask.  They'll tell you.  Then they can tell you WHY they consider themselves X, WHAT BELIEFS they consider to be essential and definitive to that identity, and WHERE they draw the line.  Like in Catholic Catechism class I literally had a unit on "What it means to be Catholic" which covered essential beliefs and differences from similar religions.

But since Fundies don't often identify THEMSELVES as fundies, we can't get that sort of self-reporting.  We have to evaluate other people's beliefs, which is always hard to do because you can never get into another person's head.  

For fundies, I personally take the same stance as Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when asked to rule on what constitutes "hard core pornography": "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

I don't know that I or perhaps any of us could ever succeed in providing an ironclad definition for what makes a Fundie. There are too many flavors and too many conflicting styles and too many intersections of belief and practice. But if you drill down, like Justice Stewart, I think you would find that you have similar problems with other labels you probably use freely (What makes something lewd or sexual in nature? Where is the line? Is it JUST the absence of clothing (unlikely)?  Intent? Or more, perhaps an intersection?).  But just because you can't define it in the abstract doesn't mean you don't know it when you see it.  

For me, a person is a fundie when they adhere to a strict, legalistic interpretation of a religion or doctrine AND seek to force that interpretation onto others (via any means) AND reject, ignore, or attack secular scholarship that disagrees with them.  This means that yes, I do consider there to be LEFT WING fundies.

I think this is where I mostly stand too. I personally don’t care what someone believes so long as they don’t attempt to force those beliefs onto anyone else. That’s part of why I have such trouble differentiating between fundamentalists and conservative Christians and whatever other terms there are - they all seem convinced of their own rightness and they all insist on trying to force me to live according to their standards.  

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Hey Ofjill, if you're reading here, I just want to let you know that it's troubling how obsessed you are with what's in this teenager's pants. 

In any other situation most people would agree that it’s ridiculously creepy for an adult to be so concerned about a teenager’s genitals - but because it’s a Trans teenager it’s suddenly ok with some people. 

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

Okay, on this same topic, what is a cult vs religion?  

Ooh, that's a loaded topic too.  You can find various cult checklists, but it ends up being pretty subjective in many cases.  It's also fairly pejorative and isn't something people apply to their own beliefs.

I also don't think that cult and religion are mutually exclusive.

[louisa05]

5 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I have a question. Not just for our former/current Fundies/Fundie curious, but anyone who wants to answer - what do you think is the main difference between a Fundamentalist Christian and a conservative Christian? Is there even a difference at this point?

And for the record I know how tiresome this conversation can be, but I really appreciate the comments and discussion that has been happening here. Especially those from our former-Fundies. Those of us who have not lived this type of lifestyle can often have a very tough time understanding the nuances and differences between different Fundamentalist groups. I mean, I’ve tried hard to listen and learn the past few years and I still have trouble understanding some stuff. So I think your comments (as they pertain to this specific flavor of Fundie) are very important and helpful.

I've tried to explain for years to a Jewish friend that there is actually a difference between fundamentalists and evangelicals to no avail. I think of that when I see the debate start here and know that I cannot explain it so anyone will listen. 

Theology wise, all fundamentalists are evangelical but not all evangelicals are fundamentalist. And I doubt that helps at all. To break it down a bit: evangelicalism is very focused on missions and outreach to save outsiders from hell. Fundamentalists also have this kind of focus. Fundamentalists, though, all believe in biblical literalism (which is different from inerrancy). So for a simple example, a fundamentalist believes that God created the earth in six 24 hour days. An evangelical might believe that. Or s/he might believe in Intelligent Design or some variation. Or, as the evangelical chemistry professor I knew in college, one might believe in evolution as the theory is presented in current science and assume that the hand of God was a presence in each step along the way. 

In terms of abortion, gay marriage, and the hot button culture war issues of our day, both groups will generally come down on the same side. But I know plenty of people who haven't darkened the door of a church for decades who do as well. So the constant "but they have hateful beliefs!" chorus always makes me want to say, sure they do, but your neighbor who mows his lawn on Sunday morning might have the same hateful beliefs. More people than just conservative Christians do or we wouldn't have a GOP Congress or Trump. As of 2013, a Gallup poll showed only 39% of Americans attend church weekly and speculation is that it has dropped since then. 

Legalism about things like dress, television, movies, women working, etc...used to be a dividing line. Even 25 years ago when I was a college student, the wives of both pastors at the evangelical church I attended had jobs (and both had young children). It was not an issue. When I taught in Christian school, three out of the four administrators that worked there in the time I did were women. I suspect many evangelicals today, 18 years after I left that school, would hesitate to send their children to a high school with a female principal. Those gender ideas were just beginning to show among a few families when I left. The school's idea of modesty was shorts that aren't too short. Some television was okay and movies below an R rating were okay. But the lines of legalism between evangelicals and fundamentalists are beginning to blur as evangelicals are becoming more extreme and some fundamentalists are becoming less rigid--I feel like they are meeting in the middle. On the example of clothing: a fundamentalist relative who grew up skirts only (and no make-up) wears pants while some evangelicals I know haven't switched to skirts only but don't wear shorts at all out of "spiritual conviction"--so they are all dressing the same now. I know evangelicals who have got rid of television and don't go to movies and fundamentalists who have bought themselves a television for the first time in their 50s and 60s while still remaining loyal to the same church tradition. So those outward legalistic rules don't seem to be a division anymore. 

On a side note: while FJ is insisting that no one raised fundamentalist or evangelical can or will leave that belief system, evangelical churches are trying to address the crisis of Millennials abandoning the church in large numbers. 

[Frumper]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

There's so much thread drift I can't seem to find if this was discussed already, but dWRECK and his small penis are going after Jazz again.

 

 

So much for my theory that he had decided to keep his stupid mouth shut so that Jill could build her brand . . .

[HarleyQuinn]

12 minutes ago, Frumper said:

So much for my theory that he had decided to keep his stupid mouth shut so that Jill could build her brand . . .

lol the Duhlards? Self control? Surely you jest. 

[Palimpsest]

Well, as this discussion seems to be going in circles, I just happened to look up the Urban Dictionary's top definition of Fundamentalist and I think I'm going with that.  With the proviso that we acknowledge that it is not just Christians, or Protestant Christians, who can be Fundamentalists.  Fundamentalists can royally fuck up all religions.  

Quote

Fundamentalist

A person who takes their religion so literally and to such extremes that they contradict the very basis of their faith. They typically believe in a literal, verbatiminterpretation of their scripture. They also have ridiculous, childish defenses to intelligent criticism of their beliefs that border on insanity. The level of hypocrisy and stupidity most of these people exhibit is truly profound. 

Prime examples of fundamentalists are the geniuses who call themselves Christians and march around with signs that say "GOD HATES FAGS," seriously suggest that the earth is 6,000 years old when an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence proves otherwise, or tell women that they are filthy when they are menstruating (because it's in the Bible, you know). 

Fundamentalists in general give religion a bad name. By definiition, it is impossible for any religion or belief structure that is centered on love, compassion, understanding, and forgiveness (most of the major religions are) to be anything but great. However, when people watch the news and see these dumbasses parading around with their "THANK GOD FOR AIDS - FAGS GO TO HELL" signs and calling themselves Christians, it tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth. 

See also asshat.

Jerry Falwell blamed the 9/11 attacks on the wrath of God, which he claims was incited by gays, lesbians, and pornography. He's a fundamentalist.

by Matrexius March 03, 2005

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fundamentalist

[louisa05]

@Palimpsest I hope that it was clear in my post that I was speaking about fundamentalism in Christianity only. 

Yes, there are fundamentalists in every religion. I know Catholics that I would call fundamentalist--typically people who see every utterance of anyone in the clergy to be inerrant gospel. Not only the pope can speak with infallibility, they basically believe their parish priest can (yet none would admit that). 

The majority of evangelicals accept that not all of the Bible is literally true. That is the main difference between fundamentalists and other conservative denominations. You can easily find very culturally conservative Presbyterians but they don't typically believe that the whole Bible is literal. They still recognize genre and that there is allegory and poetry and myth there. Judaism and most of mainline Christianity, for example, assumes that the Proverbs 31 woman is a portrait of what a Godly woman might be like made into a piece of poetry. Those who approach the Bible literally believe she was a real person. 

[acheronbeach]

34 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

lol the Duhlards? Self control? Surely you jest. 

Surely Derick realizes that he and Jill could monetize their social media so much more if he didn't come across so aggressive and impulsive?  Same for Jilly - it's as if she doesn't think at all about what she's posting, it's all on impulse.  Lots of people on social media are grifters.  Lots of successful social media influencers hold and even espouse hateful views.  They don't catch the flak that the Dillards do because they're careful, thoughtful, and suave about what and how they post stuff. 

I suppose we should thank God that Derick and Jill don't have the intellect to do that.  

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

So the constant "but they have hateful beliefs!" chorus always makes me want to say, sure they do, but your neighbor who mows his lawn on Sunday morning might have the same hateful beliefs

And this is where we get to the difference between people who are religious fundamentalists and people who have fundamentally dangerous and oppressive beliefs that cause harm to others. A lot of people in America fall into the category of believing fundamentally horrible things, but it isn't for religious reasons. 

[louisa05]

Just now, formergothardite said:

And this is where we get to the difference between people who are religious fundamentalists and people who have fundamentally dangerous and oppressive beliefs that cause harm to others. A lot of people in America fall into the category of believing fundamentally horrible things, but it isn't for religious reasons. 

Too many. Enough to elect the Paul Ryans and Mitch McConnells and, of course, Trump. 46% voted for Trump. And 39% or less attend church every week. We can assume not all of the latter group voted and that at least a percentage of church goers who voted are liberal and Christian (raising my hand) and did not vote for Trump. Then we end up with a good number of people who are just as horrid without religious reasons. 

I'm sure there is a breakdown somewhere, but I'm currently on three different antihistamines all day long and don't feel like searching for it. 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

while FJ is insisting that no one raised fundamentalist or evangelical can or will leave that belief system, evangelical churches are trying to address the crisis of Millennials abandoning the church in large numbers. 

Obviously they will leave because plenty of us were once fundamentalists or evangelical.

I do think part of fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals blurring the lines between what they believe stems from both churches and the GOP hemorrhaging young people. In eight years they saw gay people get equality while young people stopped caring about the issue. They freaked out and will do anything to gain power even if it means throwing their support behind a guy they would, in the past, have shunned. Evangelicals are so desperate they are saying they will support and vote for a brothel owner. They are terrified of losing power. 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Ooh, that's a loaded topic too.  You can find various cult checklists, but it ends up being pretty subjective in many cases.  It's also fairly pejorative and isn't something people apply to their own beliefs.

I also don't think that cult and religion are mutually exclusive.

Meh.  I define cults sociologically.  I usually try to distinguish between benign and destructive cults anyway.  Not all cults are destructive (although most are rather risky).

A cult is basically an infant religion with a charismatic leader.  Said leader makes wonderful promises (as in happiness, wealth, 97 virgins on a distant planet, eternal life) and prescribes behaviors.  A destructive cult is usually:

• Authoritarian,
• Isolationist,
• Exclusive,
• Forbids independent thought,
• Shuns people who escape,
• And includes some version of Satanic attacks.  In other words, you are persecuted for belonging!!

Most cults fail because the charismatic leader either fucks up or dies in kindergarten.

- See Jim Jones.

Some survive beyond the death of the founder into the teen years and become Churches.  

- See Scientology.

Some survive the Founder and become religious denominations (but ones that have to grab onto another religion for legitimacy).

- See Joseph Smith and the Angel Moroni channeling JC who is a mere Latter Day Saint.

Some cults succeed beyond all belief and become MAJOR religions.

- See Christianity.

And Christianity became top-heavy and splintered very, very, early.  Not only do we have the Coptic, Orthodox, and Roman Catholic Churches - but it then split into all sorts of Protestant!

I think humankind prefers being part of a small exclusive in-group who look down on others.  Whenever a religion gets too big - it splinters!

 

 

 

 

[louisa05]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

Obviously they will leave because plenty of us were once fundamentalists or evangelical.

I do think part of fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals blurring the lines between what they believe stems from both churches and the GOP hemorrhaging young people. In eight years they saw gay people get equality while young people stopped caring about the issue. They freaked out and will do anything to gain power even if it means throwing their support behind a guy they would, in the past, have shunned. Evangelicals are so desperate they are saying they will support and vote for a brothel owner. They are terrified of losing power. 

I suspect that the new obsession with gender roles, "biblical womanhood,"  submission and all that has a lot to do with the growing acceptance of  LGBT people particularly among the Millennial generation. Gender issues in terms of roles and submission was barely on their radar when I got to Christian school in 1994 and the issue of homosexuality was not either. By the time I left in 2000, the gender issue was creeping in and many were growing completely obsessed by LGBT issues. 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

On a side note: while FJ is insisting that no one raised fundamentalist or evangelical can or will leave that belief system, evangelical churches are trying to address the crisis of Millennials abandoning the church in large numbers. 

Now that is just plain silly.  Firstly we are not a collective.  Secondly, would you like to point to exactly where I, or anyone else on FJ, has actually done that?  Thirdly, are you not also a part of FJ? 

I've spent a lot of time pointing to people who are modifying their beliefs and people who have got out.  

Pointing out that donning pants, mini-skirts, or tank tops is not necessarily proof of leaving extreme fundamentalism is hardly saying that no-one can ever change their beliefs. 

[justoneoftwo]

I'm curious when most people would be happy that a Duggar has "left."  If they have hateful beliefs but for non religious reasons?  If they use bc?  If they have educated kids?  If they accept a gay kid?  What would it take for most of us to stop reminding one another of their hateful beliefs?

[louisa05]

2 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I'm curious when most people would be happy that a Duggar has "left."  If they have hateful beliefs but for non religious reasons?  If they use bc?  If they have educated kids?  If they accept a gay kid?  What would it take for most of us to stop reminding one another of their hateful beliefs?

I feel like some people here would not say they left if a pair of Duggars danced down a street at Pride carrying rainbow flags and wearing nothing but sandwich signs that said "Bernie Sanders for President" on one side and "Fuck Christianity" on the other. Someone would pop up to say "But they've never said they support abortion rights".