Seewalds 34: No News Yet

[tabitha2]

The point is a young adult man participated in actions that were not simply immature or rude but cruel and callous. They all could put two and two together and see they hit this animal and Did not care, they enjoyed their sport.

I have seen no evidence that he is now a kinder, empathetic person have you?  Kids are far from a guarantee that he has changed either.

 

 

[BernRul]

5 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I don't think Jessa will change AT ALL until JimBob dies (not wishing death on him - just using that event as a point where things might change). She apparently goes to the TTH on the regular, perhaps every day. She hasn't been spotted in PANTS (gasp!) or JEANS (gasp!) or a TANKTOP (gasp!). She still not only drinks the Koolaid, but helps make it.

Her carefully crafted Instagram persona would have everyone believe otherwise, but she's still a fundie and won't change as long as she's under JB's thumb and semi-headship. Or maybe she's still modeling her daily life on Michelle. Who knows. Yeah - she has cute kids, but I don't think Ben is doing her any favors with regard to expanding her horizons or "leading" her to better/greater/more tolerant things.

I'm going to have to disagree with most of this. If I had to bet, I'd actually say that Jessa and Ben are more likely to move away from fundimentalism than the other couples. Why? Because both Jessa and Ben have shown they can think for themselves. Jessa in regards to her parenting decisions, and Ben in regards to politics and race issues. They still go along with the Duggar brand, and still likely believe in most of it, but the areas where they differ are promising. As much as it pains me to admit (Jinger was my original pet fundie), Jinger for all of her pants wearing ways still saw nothing wrong with liking Derick's wall comment even though she lives in a heavy Mexican area. Ben's conversations wtih Flame and the coaches at the football camp seem to have deeply impacted him. Ben at least can listen to others who are different from others. And in the age of Trump, a white fundie man who is willing to acknowledge racial issues is remarkable. 

Ben and Jessa do still like in Jim Bob's house, and I think that's keeping them close to Duggar thinking for now. But Ben is young, and apparently is in school. When he's able to support his family, he may move away. I'm sure they'll move eventually--I doubt that they're going to stop at 2 kids, and they will need more space. If they move away from Jim Bob, they might start moving away from fundimentalism as well. 

21 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

He was still an adult. If you haven’t learned empathy by then 4 years won’t make a difference. Derick loathing aside Ben was complicit in it as well. He had fun doing it. 

I'm not a fan of this line of thinking. Humans grow. Our life experiences change us, and we never stop having life experiences until the day we die. I feel like this attitude, that people are set in stone and their past actions define them, is one of the reasons why it's hard to have a conversation about controversial topics nowadays. Life isn't that black and white. 

 

[tabitha2]

So What about Josh? Is he all black and white? 

That line of reasoning can’t only be used for our pet fundies.

 

[BernRul]

5 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

So What about Josh? Is he all black and white? 

I'd say no. He's done a lot of terrible things, and I think all of us would agree that he's a bad person, but he's still a person. He's a human. The truth is, we don't actually know Josh. We don't know what goes on his head, or everything he's done in private. At the very least, he seems to love his children. 

[BlessaYourHeart]

18 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

So What about Josh? Is he all black and white? 

That line of reasoning can’t only be used for our pet fundies.

 

 

10 minutes ago, BernRul said:

I'd say no. He's done a lot of terrible things, and I think all of us would agree that he's a bad person, but he's still a person. He's a human. The truth is, we don't actually know Josh. We don't know what goes on his head, or everything he's done in private. At the very least, he seems to love his children. 

I’m also going to add that none of us know what was going on in Josh’s head through all that he done. We don’t know what mental repercussions he may have from growing up in the environment he did. The repression he suffered at the hands of his parents and the world he grew up in must have had some impact on him and could possibly have been heavily behind his actions. Or it may not have and he may just be a horrible person. None of us knows. 

My point is, not all is black and white, even concerning Josh 

[tabitha2]

Trying to hurt or laughing at animals hurt is pretty black and white to me. It shows something serious is lacking in your character and your upbringing. It is what it is.

[nastyhobbitses]

26 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

So What about Josh? Is he all black and white? 

That line of reasoning can’t only be used for our pet fundies.

 

With Josh, I've seen no evidence of him changing for the better. He's staying quiet and I think him fucking up the brand (not his actual actions) put him in the doghouse in perpetuity, but other than "don't get caught" I don't think he's learned any other lessons or had any growth from the person he revealed himself to be. 

I'm cynical as fuck but I do want to believe that people can and do change. But I have to see evidence of such change. Josh hasn't shown me that evidence. 

[KelseyAnn]

32 minutes ago, BernRul said:

 

I'm not a fan of this line of thinking. Humans grow. Our life experiences change us, and we never stop having life experiences until the day we die. I feel like this attitude, that people are set in stone and their past actions define them, is one of the reasons why it's hard to have a conversation about controversial topics nowadays. Life isn't that black and white. 

 

 

In 4 years I went from hardcore religious zealot on drugs to being back in school full-time (with A's) as well as moving away from religions. A LOT can change in four years. That's practically half a decade of growth. 

[tabitha2]

Josh really only is obliged  to show such evidence to his family, particularly his Wife and children.  We have no way of knowing if that is happened or has happened and that’s as it should be.

[xenobia]

4 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

With Josh, I've seen no evidence of him changing for the better. He's staying quiet....

...well, with Josh, I think that staying quiet is a change  He was always a talker, to put it nicely. Didn't he even do the voiceovers in some of the earlier episodes of 19kac? 

[singsingsing]

I think it depends a lot on what the intent was. I was even ready to give Derick a break if I had watched the video and it had seemed like he was just joking about trying to hit the cat. Yeah, it's immature and a stupid joke which I don't find funny, but there's a big difference between making a stupid joke and actually aiming to run over a cat. I know for myself, especially when I was younger, if someone had told me they were going to sled down a hill and aim for a cat, I might have laughed it off and said something sarcastic like, "Oh yeah, go for it" because I would have never in a million years thought they were serious.

From my recollection, watching the video, Derick actually honest-to-God aimed for the cat. I don't recollect now who was cheering him on or encouraging him, but they're assholes too. If they were joking and didn't realize he was serious, I can chalk it up to youth and stupidity. If they actually wanted him to hit the cat, add it to the long, long list of shitty, immoral, disgusting things various Duggars have participated in over the years.

Just now, xenobia said:

...well, with Josh, I think that staying quiet is a change  He was always a talker, to put it nicely. Didn't he even do the voiceovers in some of the earlier episodes of 19kac? 

He was. He's been (seemingly) shamed into silence and retirement now, and I hope it stays that way.

[tabitha2]

Ben was the one pushing him toward the animal. They were  all of thinking it was great he hit it.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.etonline.com/news/160574_watch_derick_dillard_try_to_run_over_a_cat_with_his_sled_while_duggar_family_cheers%3famp

[nastyhobbitses]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

I think it depends a lot on what the intent was. I was even ready to give Derick a break if I had watched the video and it had seemed like he was just joking about trying to hit the cat. Yeah, it's immature and a stupid joke which I don't find funny, but there's a big difference between making a stupid joke and actually aiming to run over a cat. I know for myself, especially when I was younger, if someone had told me they were going to sled down a hill and aim for a cat, I might have laughed it off and said something sarcastic like, "Oh yeah, go for it" because I would have never in a million years thought they were serious.

From my recollection, watching the video, Derick actually honest-to-God aimed for the cat. I don't recollect now who was cheering him on or encouraging him, but they're assholes too. If they were joking and didn't realize he was serious, I can chalk it up to youth and stupidity. If they actually wanted him to hit the cat, add it to the long, long list of shitty, immoral, disgusting things various Duggars have participated in over the years.

Thread drift ahoy, but I relate in a really weird, fucked up way. When I was younger, I'd go on 4Chan a lot because I was a dumb young teen who loved 2edgy4me shit and thought that edgy and transgressive = mature and cool. I saw all this anti-Semitic shit on there and thought that it was all like when I was at Jewish summer camp and my friends and I would try to one-up each other's Holocaust/Jew/dead baby jokes, and it was all good fun because we knew it was just dumb edgy humor and we were just trying to shock each other and have a laugh. So I laughed at all that shit on 4Chan because I thought it was a joke. No one really believed that stuff anymore, right? 

...Right? 

And here we are in 2018. 

[BernRul]

17 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

Trying to hurt or laughing at animals hurt is pretty black and white to me. It shows something serious is lacking in your character and your upbringing. It is what it is.

Actually, I think it soudns more like the bystander effect. We all like to think of ourselves as moral and heroic people, but truthfuly, when something bad happens most of us do nothing/go along with the group. Peer pressure is a real thing. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

 

[tabitha2]

Cop outs and excuses are real things too. 

[singsingsing]

14 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Thread drift ahoy, but I relate in a really weird, fucked up way. When I was younger, I'd go on 4Chan a lot because I was a dumb young teen who loved 2edgy4me shit and thought that edgy and transgressive = mature and cool. I saw all this anti-Semitic shit on there and thought that it was all like when I was at Jewish summer camp and my friends and I would try to one-up each other's Holocaust/Jew/dead baby jokes, and it was all good fun because we knew it was just dumb edgy humor and we were just trying to shock each other and have a laugh. So I laughed at all that shit on 4Chan because I thought it was a joke. No one really believed that stuff anymore, right? 

...Right? 

And here we are in 2018. 

I can totally relate to that naivete. In grade 6 I argued that there couldn't possibly be such a thing as sweat shops in this day and age (late 90s) because, and I quote, "America wouldn't let that happen!" My teacher laughed at me and said, "Welcome to the real world." Before 9/11 (a couple years later), I honest to God thought nothing remotely like that would ever happen in North America because 'the U.S. will protect us'. Even as an older teen, and honestly, even to this day, I have an incredible amount of trouble grasping that there are people who are genuinely not good people, who are only looking out for themselves, who consciously lie and take advantage of others, etc. Thankfully I understand it and accept it on an intellectual level, but my instinct is generally, "Why would anyone not be honest and good?" It's almost like how I had to memorize my left from my right - I had to memorize the fact that some people just have downright bad motives, and act on those bad motives. Following fundies and reading FJ for several years has definitely helped me with that delusion, though!

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 hours ago, BernRul said:

I'm going to have to disagree with most of this.

Well, of course you did! lol

 

Clearly, you and I have vastly different opinions. hahaha

[SassyPants]

Wait,just to clarify, did the sled actually hit the cat? Either way, they’re all immature douches with too much time o their hands.

[Bad Wolf]

I think the cat ran off before it was hit, cats being smarter than some fundies

[Carm_88]

3 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

So What about Josh? Is he all black and white? 

That line of reasoning can’t only be used for our pet fundies.

 

I honestly don't think that Josh is all black and white, I don't think that even Derick is all black and white. I think that they all have their asshole tendencies. Ben and Jessa have had their moments as well. Not just the cat, the whole holocaust post; but it in the grand scheme of fundies, they seem to have at least learned from it. Even if it's just that you don't post it on social media, because Derick can't seem to get it through his head. 

Black and white is a rough way to see the world, there are always shades of grey, and things that you won't know about the person or haven't seen. I could say that hypothetically my neighbour is the nicest guy in the world, he could be beating his wife and kids nightly. What I know of him says that he's a decent guy. Life is all shades of grey and unknowns. 

[LilMissMetaphor]

26 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I think the cat ran off before it was hit, cats being smarter than some fundies

Not only that, but I think they probably all assumed that's exactly what was going to happen.  It's not as if they tied the cat in place and then sledded towards it.  Still a dick move, but I think at least a few of them would have been chagrined/horrified if the cat did not move and was then actually hit.

[BlessaYourHeart]

Honestly I’d love to sit down and have a private conversation with Josh. Find out what goes on in his head. Is he remorseful or is he just an ass? 

I’d love to know what he thinks of his upbringing and whether he believes it has a part in how he is today. I’d like to know does he really love Anna or if he had the chance would be divorce her. I’d like to know what his mental state is and why he did what he did. 

I think it would be really interesting 

[Pecansforeveryone]

Jessa is very much the face and voice of the Duggar brand. Counting On is the very nearly Jessa Duggar Seewald show with ...those other people, almost. I wouldnt be at all suprised if Jessa is offered a solo book deal. My Reflections on Marriage, Motherhood, and Faith Because I Know Everything By Jessa Duggar Seewald. 

[BernRul]

4 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Well, of course you did! lol

 

Clearly, you and I have vastly different opinions. hahaha

I am a Gryffindor.

Also the people who reacted "bless your heart" to the post about the bystander effect, would you like to explain why? I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to psychology/sociology, and I like debating/discussing different points about it. It's fascinating. So it'd be nice to hear a different pov on the topic. 

[nst]

6 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

 

That line of reasoning can’t only be used for our pet fundies.

 

pet funides - I love that - i do admit that I was stroking ben's bicep back in the day