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99bottlesofPlexus

Questions about becoming Catholic

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99bottlesofPlexus

I hope this is the right forum...

Long story short, I am seriously considering becoming Catholic. I have some personal history with the church (baptized Catholic as an infant, but never received the rest of the initiation sacraments; attended Catholic school for a few years; attended Mass occasionally with Catholic relatives), but never felt a strong pull toward it until the past year or so. I’ve discussed the issue with a couple priests, and found I have a significant roadblock, in that DH has a prior marriage that would have to be annulled, so ours could be convalidated in the RCC, in spite of the fact that he has no interest in becoming Catholic. He is refusing to get the annulment. I have gotten him to agree to revisit the issue in a year if I still feel strongly about this. I have a feeling he hopes I’ll just forget about this and drop it, but he claims to be serious. 

I guess my big question is, how do I get him to change his mind about the annulment? Is there anything I can even do, besides go to Mass and pray? The priest at our local parish was very surprised that DH doesn’t see the value in letting me join the church I want to, I’m just like, well, you don’t know my husband, he just doesn’t do things he doesn’t want to do.

Another problem I have is, I really struggle to put into words for my husband just how I feel and how much joining would mean to me. To him, this is completely out of left field (because I never talked about it until now). We had a baby three months ago, and he thinks this wanting to be Catholic is due to some postpartum issues I’ve had. I would want to raise our daughter Catholic, which he doesn’t want. He also doesn’t understand why I would want to join a church that has put up this barrier for me joining. How can I get him to understand?

Another issue I have, and one that has prevented me from seriously considering joining before, is birth control. For those of you who are Catholic, how do you deal with it? I’m not necessarily opposed to NFP, but DH is.

Lastly, for those of you who went through RCIA, or are close to someone who did, what was it like for you/them?

Thanks for reading/responding.

Edited by 99bottlesofPlexus
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AliceInFundyland

Hi there, 

I don’t have any advice yet. I hope maybe we can help you talk/ think some of this through.

I do have a couple questions, if you don’t mind? 

-How long have you been together/married?

-What’s your husband’s spiritual/religous background?

:romance-heartbeating:

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PennySycamore

Well, I don't know how much help I'll be, but I converted when I was in college in the 70s although I no longer consider myself Catholic.  Maybe @louisa05 will chime in.  

As far as contraception, most Western Catholics practice contraception.  They do what the US bishops advised when  Pope Paul promulgated Humanae Vitae and "exercised their own conscience" regarding birth control.

To my mind, you've already had the most important initiation sacrament -baptism.  You just weren't confirmed.  You could consider yourself Catholic already.  If you feel that you're going to make a huge mistake in practice, get yourself a book that will help with that.  just go to a parish where you haven't talked to the priest.  Nobody's gonna ask for your confirmation certificate unless you want to join a convent..

I can understand your husband not wanting to go through an annulment.  It means that his first marriage wasn't valid.  Have you ever considered the Episcopal Church (or CoE in your country).  It has much the same rites, but is much less crazy and they won't ask your husband to get an annulment.   This sounds like a situation where you both need to talk to a marriage counselor.

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SuperNova

Your roadblock is exactly why my mother left the RCC. My parents were divorced in the late 80's and the church refused to annul their marriage. My mother wanted to re-marry in the church but it never happened. My parents had been married for 25 years before splitting up and had even attended several years of church counseling to no avail. To this day they are still married and both bio parents are in current marriages not recognized by the church. 

Perhaps after you've attended for awhile, you can ask him to go to mass with you. I remember that our church often had after mass donut and coffee socials. Maybe it would help him feel more comfortable? I imagine, if your husband can be as stubborn as mine can be, baby steps over the next year would be a good thing. 

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formergothardite

 

1 hour ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

very surprised that DH doesn’t see the value in letting me join the church

Is it really, though, him not allowing you to join or is it the church not allowing you to join because of your husband's past? If your husband had to do absolutely nothing and the church accepted your membership no problem with his first marriage, would he have an issue? Instead of viewing him as the problem, think long and hard about if the Catholic church is actually the one with the issue that needs changing. 

It is rather a lot to ask him to invalidate his first marriage. If you force the issue and make him feel like he has to change something about himself to make you happy, that can cause marriage problems down the road. Is joining the Catholic church worth potentially ruining your marriage? At the same time, will you hold it against him if he refuses to do so? Is this an issue that you will be willing to not resent him for? 

What are the reasons he doesn't want your children raised Catholic? Is there another religious organization that doesn't have these issues that you two could compromise on? I personally would not want my children raised Catholic, but if it was truly important to my husband, I would compromise with the Episcopal church. 

IMO, it would be best to seek a compromise that you can both be comfortable with. Maybe it won't be 100 percent what you wanted, but if it would mean you wouldn't press your husband into doing something he isn't comfortable doing, then it might be worth a consideration. 

Edited by formergothardite
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Georgiana

I grew up Catholic and come from a mega-Catholic family. First, I would note that annulments are by no means a sure thing. They are often very difficult to get, and you may end up putting extensive strain on your marriage for something that ultimately doesn’t pan out. There are few grounds upon which an annulment will be granted, and if you have a bishop who is a stickler, even those may not be enough. A close family friend was denied an annulment from a man who beat her and her sons black and blue, despite a strong case and many testimonials. 

And as others have said, your husband may not feel comfortable having his previous marriage declared invalid. An annulment is saying “This marriage never truly was”. That’s not always how people feel about their former relationships. Ultimately, I would caution you: this is HIS former marriage, not yours. Be careful not to put your wants above his valid emotions surrounding a major part of his past.

Most people quietly use contraception. Methods that prevent egg and sperm from meeting are in a slightly better theological place, but except for my crazy hardline friends, most couples practice SOME form of family planning. It’s often considered a “personal conscience” matter. 

However, it sounds to me like a conversion would mean that you and your husband are no longer on the same page, especially with regards to raising your daughter. Is this worth losing your marriage over? Because if you cannot figure out how to reconcile your faith to THIS marriage that you are in RIGHT NOW, that’s very much a possibility. Your husband didn’t sign up for a Catholic marriage/family. It doesn’t sound like he’s interested in what that means.  And there are flavors of Catholic marriage that other Catholics are not interested in. It’s a big deal when your partner wants you to do things you don’t believe in or don’t support.  And if he doesn’t want to be in a Catholic marriage and you ONLY want to be in a Catholic marriage...something will have to give.  I second the suggestion of marriage counseling, and I wish you the best of luck. 

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louisa05

PM me. I converted in 2009. 

Woman in my RCIA asked a million questions about annulments and took copious notes (she was engaged; it was very weird). So I still remember a bit of it. 

I also went through the whole RCIA process then. 

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99bottlesofPlexus

A lot to think about here. I will attempt to answer some questions.

How long have we been together? - Married 5 years, together a total of 10.

His religious background - United Methodist. I was actually raised in this church for a few years as well. This is actually the type of church we’re attending now. I don’t like it all that much, but I guess him being happy/comfortable is more important.

The Episcopal Church as a compromise - I’ve actually already tried this, and it wasn’t the same. 

Why he doesn’t want our daughter raised Catholic - I have no idea, other than the fact he thinks Catholicism is weird and like a cult. He has very little interest in actually going to church anyway, so I don’t see why he cares. I’d think he would jump at the chance to have no part in her religious upbringing.

Is this worth losing my marriage over - Honestly, I don’t know. That’s how strongly I feel about it.

Will I hold it against him if he doesn’t get the annulment - yes

Will I resent him - I already do. I’m tired of having to keep his wants/needs/comfort in mind all the time.

Is he the one with the problem, or is it the Church - I realize it should be the Church, but they have their rules that won’t change, so that makes him the problem. It just kills me that I have to pay for some stupid marriage he entered into at the age of 25/26 with a woman he didn’t even really want to be married to, just because they’d been together a few years and “everyone else was getting married.” 

I realize we need marriage counseling, but he did that when it looked like he and the first wife were headed toward divorce. He wasn’t impressed, and claims the only thing he learned was “everything was his fault.”

 

 

 

 

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socalrules

I am confused. You were baptized so you are already Catholic. You can still be Catholic if your husband doesn’t want to annul his first marriage or doesn’t want to be Catholic himself. No one is going to throw you out of the Church. No one can stop you from going  and no one will investigate your religious background. You can go every single day of your life and no one at the church will ask you anything. You don’t even have to give your name. Why don’t you just continue your journey with your faith and, if he comes along, great. If not, you can still have your faith. You can’t expect someone else take a spiritual journey they don’t want to be on. That’s not love and not fair to them. 

It is asking a lot to expect someone to annul their prior marriage. Does he have children from the marriage?  He may not feel comfortable invalidating a time that was important to him even if the marriage didn’t work out. 

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and am still active in the Church. I am pro-birth control, pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. Most of the Catholics I know are the same way. I love being Catholic, even if I don’t agree with everything, and no Church is going to align perfectly with everything you believe in.  I only want to be married in the Catholic Church and would only raise my kids Catholic because it is important to me. I would never change my religion for a person. I also would not expect someone to change their religion for me or go to church with me. I don’t think someone proves their love for you by changing religions. 

This seems to be about a lot more than Catholicism. Maybe this just an easier issue to focus on rather than other issues.

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NachosFlandersStyle

Personally? I was raised Catholic, I still consider myself Catholic in some vague sense (excommunicate me if you want to get rid of me, mf'ers!) and I would still probably refuse if someone asked me to take formal steps to "get right" with the church as a condition of a relationship. Not just because I have serious reservarions about Church policies, which I do, but because it goes beyond faith and community into the realm of control. It's one thing to believe and take part in the ritual, it's another thing to let this institution decide if your relationship or relationships are valid or not. Like many others have said, you are totally free to go to Mass every day for the rest of your life without having to go through these steps. 

If it's any consolation, there are a number of prominent Catholics who have been in the same position. Saint Monica was the mother of Augustine and prayed for his conversion; today people often pray for her intercession with non-believing relatives. Elisabeth Leseur was declared a Servant of God primarily because of her efforts to convert her atheist husband. Or you might consider Simone Weil, a convert who refused to be baptized because she believed she was meant to experience the church as an outsider.

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99bottlesofPlexus

I realize I can just go to Mass. However, I want more than that. I want to take part in everything, including Eucharist, which I can’t now.

Those of you who think this about more than religion are right. I’m just tired of having to keep him happy/comfortable all the time. I just want him to go the distance for me, for once.

As for the first wife, they have no kids together, were only married a few years and he doesn’t even like her, so I don’t know what the big deal is.

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Pecansforeveryone
10 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

I realize I can just go to Mass. However, I want more than that. I want to take part in everything, including Eucharist, which I can’t now.

Those of you who think this about more than religion are right. I’m just tired of having to keep him happy/comfortable all the time. I just want him to go the distance for me, for once.

As for the first wife, they have no kids together, were only married a few years and he doesn’t even like her, so I don’t know what the big deal is.

I am going to go ahead and bite the bullet and defend your husband. Um, defer to his wants and needs? He doesn't have to be Catholic if he doesn't want to be. The very fact that despite you being a good person with a faithful heart for the church have to jump thru all these hoops to be accepted is part of what is causing him to label this church as a cult. These heavy burdens that churches crush people under without lifting a finger to help is exactly so many churches are dying. Jesus said something putting heavy burdens on people and not lifting a finger to help them, I believe. All the best to you and your family. I hope the Catholic Churches softens it's heart and welcomes you with open arms. 

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anniebgood

Have you ever just gone to mass and gone to the Eucharist and received it? The priest isn't going to ask you if you're right with god? Just go and receive the host and accept the blessing. Man made rules are just that, man made. 

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NachosFlandersStyle

OK, I don't actually know the answer to this because I don't know many people who converted as an adult. Do married couples have to convert together in order to be confirmed? Like, are they saying that YOU cannot be confirmed unless he is, because you need to be in the right kind of marriage in order to qualify?

If so, then a) that's kind of messed up, and b) you have an option here-- separate from your spouse and do not remarry. If that sounds like something you'd be okay with, well, I guess you do you?

But I wonder if this isn't the case, because in my aforementioned vague understanding of the faith, you are not held responsible for the state of someone else's soul, and I don't think the church is going to encourage you to separate from your husband. Go through RCIA on your own, don't pester him about it too much, and take some satisfaction in being part of the 99.9% of Catholics who spend their lives feeling guilty that they don't measure up to the Vatican's ideal.

I know you're probably frustrated with some of the responses here, but go back to your first post and note that  you have given us verbatim the same question as every misguided writer to every advice column ever: "how do I make him change his mind?" The answer is always "you don't." You just have to find a way to respect each other's choices.

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PennySycamore

To go along with what @anniebgood just said, no one is going to know if the first time you receive the Eucharist is the very first time.  There's nothing magical about a childhood First Communion. And as @socalrules pointed out, you're already a Catholic if you were baptized a Catholic.  No conversion is necessary.  Now you could do RCIA, but you could also study on your own.  

Have you ever considered that the Episcopal Church you attended wasn't high church enough?  Some are more "bells and smells" than others. 

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NachosFlandersStyle
9 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

OK, I don't actually know the answer to this because I don't know many people who converted as an adult. Do married couples have to convert together in order to be confirmed? Like, are they saying that YOU cannot be confirmed unless he is, because you need to be in the right kind of marriage in order to qualify?

If so, then a) that's kind of messed up, and b) you have an option here-- separate from your spouse and do not remarry. If that sounds like something you'd be okay with, well, I guess you do you?

But I wonder if this isn't the case, because in my aforementioned vague understanding of the faith, you are not held responsible for the state of someone else's soul, and I don't think the church is going to encourage you to separate from your husband. Go through RCIA on your own, don't pester him about it too much, and take some satisfaction in being part of the 99.9% of Catholics who spend their lives feeling guilty that they don't measure up to the Vatican's ideal.

I know you're probably frustrated with some of the responses here, but go back to your first post and note that  you have given us verbatim the same question as every misguided writer to every advice column ever: "how do I make him change his mind?" The answer is always "you don't." You just have to find a way to respect each other's choices.

Edit because I realized that you could get *this* marriage annulled easily, which I guess is the other option.

Edited by NachosFlandersStyle
Edit to my edit: I hit "quote" instead of edit!

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Beermeet

I agree with most of the thoughts here.  It is a lot to think about.

I understand where you are coming from though.  You want to be a family, together at the Catholic church.  You want it together.  I get that.  I was born and raised Catholic  ( I stopped attending and will always be a Catholic to some extent as it turns out).  The belonging is drawing you as well as the atmosphere in church both during mass and socially.   However, your husband does not and did not enter this marriage with this knowledge. So, it's tricky for you.  Bottom line? You can't change him.  Trying will divide you.  Options are: 1. Just go to church and maybe ( a big maybe) your husband will attend even just a occasionally.   2. You divorce him to become Catholic full time without him to think about joining you and get an annulment to marry a Catholic, potentially  .  3. Maybe you guys can work out the underlying issues and be happy with each other no matter the spiritual differences, find a common ground. 

Keep in mind though, a Catholic does not divorce easily.  They are serious about it.  It is the way it is.  Sorry to sound harsh but, that is how it is.  Many a Catholic woman attends services alone or with children, no husband,  IRL.

P.S.  Even many devout Catholics  ( like my older relatives that are die hard and friends/ family in this current time) practised some form of birth control.  I mean, too many had 4-6 kids rapidly then, none.  C'mon.  They were still young and nothing traumatic happened to stop procreation.  And, sex didn't stop, so........

I wish you both the best, this is not easy, but in one way or another doable I hope.  Take time, think long and hard.

ETA: why can't you receive the Eucharist?  Were you only baptised?  Because if so, no you should not recieve it.  But, your husband not being on board does not or should not stop you from receiving all the sacrements so you can via RCIA.  

Edited by Beermeet

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99bottlesofPlexus

Just to clarify: I am aware that I can become Catholic without him converting as well. The two priests I have talked to were clear on that. I also would not expect or force my husband to become Catholic if he doesn’t want to. However, even if he doesn’t want to be Catholic, he would still need to get the first marriage annulled, so ours could be convalidated and I could be a Catholic in good standing. At least, this is my understanding. And yes, I see why he and other people have an issue with the idea that he would have to jump through all these hoops just so I can be a full member of a church he has no interest in. Trust me, I have tried to change my thinking and attend a church we can all take part in. Maybe someday it will work. But, so far, it’s not, and I’m trying to deal with it the best I can.

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Georgiana
11 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

OK, I don't actually know the answer to this because I don't know many people who converted as an adult. Do married couples have to convert together in order to be confirmed? Like, are they saying that YOU cannot be confirmed unless he is, because you need to be in the right kind of marriage in order to qualify?

If so, then a) that's kind of messed up, and b) you have an option here-- separate from your spouse and do not remarry. If that sounds like something you'd be okay with, well, I guess you do you?

But I wonder if this isn't the case, because in my aforementioned vague understanding of the faith, you are not held responsible for the state of someone else's soul, and I don't think the church is going to encourage you to separate from your husband. Go through RCIA on your own, don't pester him about it too much, and take some satisfaction in being part of the 99.9% of Catholics who spend their lives feeling guilty that they don't measure up to the Vatican's ideal.

I know you're probably frustrated with some of the responses here, but go back to your first post and note that  you have given us verbatim the same question as every misguided writer to every advice column ever: "how do I make him change his mind?" The answer is always "you don't." You just have to find a way to respect each other's choices.

Until the marriage is annulled, the Church recognizes his first marriage as remaining valid.  That means that she is the other woman and living in open sin/contradiction to the laws of the church. You cannot be in full communion with the Church while living in open contradiction to Church laws, so you cannot receive the sacraments. Upside: she wouldn’t need to get this marriage annulled because it doesn’t exist in the eyes of the Church.

The French kings took open mistresses and were often in struggle with the Church, and those were KINGS. Laypeople, they’re much more comfortable cutting off. 

1 hour ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

As for the first wife, they have no kids together, were only married a few years and he doesn’t even like her, so I don’t know what the big deal is.

I’m sorry, but I am going to speak VERY frankly and as a Catholic here: if you don’t understand what the big deal is, you don’t fully appreciate what you are asking him to do.  It is a HUGE deal.  It is a huge ORDEAL. It is a long, exhausting process that forces a person to expose everything before a complete stranger. And do you even have grounds?!? If they were free to marry and entered into that marriage under God, that’s mostly it. Catholics don’t recognize “it didn’t work out”. That’s the whole split with the CofE. If the marriage vows were never made before God you might have something, but otherwise the Catholic Church believes marriage vows to be LIFELONG vows that fundamentally CANNOT be dissolved except by God Himself. The Church literally believes they CANNOT cancel a marriage made before God, they can only recognize that the marriage was never made to begin with. 

Annulments are huge, massive deals. My parents had 7 priests celebrate their wedding, almost all of my parents’ AND grandparents’ friends are Catholic, and I didn’t even have a non-Catholic friend until I was 12. I know a TON of Catholics, including ones in your position. I know 0 people who have gotten annulments. They are the unicorns of Catholicism: you hear about them, but no one has ever seen one.  Again, I knew a woman well who fought for over a YEAR for an annulment from a man who BEAT HER AND HER KIDS, compiled stacks of evidence, had multiple people testify on her behalf, and they told her it wasn’t granted because it only happened twice and she didn’t try hard enough to repair the relationship. If you think you’re going to get an annulment for a routine mistake, you don’t know this Church. And you should study more, because I worry you really don’t understand the practices and doctrines as well as you should before making such a drastic decision. 

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Eclipse

I was raised Catholic but I'm not practicing. I go to Catholic church a few times a year to make my mom happy but I am not a believer.  I have come to learn that attitudes towards birth control and remarriage differ across the continent significantly. Where I grew up would probably be considered a bastion of sin by many American bishops but the norm by my Ontario bishops.

But it also doesn't sound to me like you are converting. You were baptized as a baby as Catholic so you are Catholic, You just have done the later sacraments of reconciliation, first communion and confirmation. Reconciliation you can just go to generally. Most churches have weekly times when a priest will hear confessions or they will meet people by appointment. 

You usually need to do classes before you have your first communion or confirmation, whether you are a child or an adult. Most churches have special classes for adults. If you are giving your husband a year, you could maybe attend them in the meantime and really learn about the faith you are getting back into. 

Is your husband Catholic? Was he married in a Catholic church? The Catholic church I grew up just looked the other way when people married after divorce. If you wanted to get remarried in the Catholic church you needed to get an annulment. Was your husband's first marriage performed in a Catholic Church? Was he and/or his previous wife Catholic? 


Also, does your husband know that the Catholic annulment is different from a civil annulment? A lot of people don't understand the difference. He may think he needs to go back to court and bring up a bunch of things that he thought he left in the past. 

Most Catholic families that I know who are having children now or who had children in the 1970s and later used some form of birth control and its just not the rhythm method. I can't think of a sing family in the church I grew up in when I was a I child (I'm in my 30s) or now who had more than 4 kids. There was only 1 family with 4 kids. All the other families had 1 to 3 kids. In my area the priests doesn't really talk about birth control except for abortion. Most people view the Church's stance as out-dated and that they will catch-up sooner or later as a bottom up issue of theory. (Bottom up -- theology that starts with the lay people and later gets embraced by the higher echelons of the Church hierarchy. See most teachings about Mary as an example of this). 
 

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99bottlesofPlexus

Ok, well, I guess I am going to try and be happy as a Protestant, because apparently this isn’t just going to happen for me. It just kills me that I have to pay for my husband’s screw up, but I know he doesn’t want to end the marriage, and I don’t really want to either, even though it has crossed my mind, that’s how strongly I feel I’m being called to become Catholic. I guess I’ll just have to wait longer.

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feministxtian
6 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Ok, well, I guess I am going to try and be happy as a Protestant, because apparently this isn’t just going to happen for me. It just kills me that I have to pay for my husband’s screw up, but I know he doesn’t want to end the marriage, and I don’t really want to either, even though it has crossed my mind, that’s how strongly I feel I’m being called to become Catholic. I guess I’ll just have to wait longer.

That annulment thing is rubbish...my mother went to communion even though she was married to a divorced man. Those rules really are bullshit. Just go to a parish where you don't know anyone, stand in line and BOOM!

I was born, raised, baptized, confirmed and educated Roman Catholic. I left over 20 years ago for many reasons. My husband was also baptized Catholic. Neither one of us feel any need to remain so. 

For you and your husband, try to find some sort of compromise. Don't let this be the hill to kill your marriage on. 

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99bottlesofPlexus

Trust me, I’m trying to come to a compromise. Apparently, that means neither of us will be happy. Although, honestly, the damage may already be done. I told him tonight that I will only accept therapy if he goes with me. He wasn’t very receptive to that. 

Edited by 99bottlesofPlexus
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Georgiana
9 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Ok, well, I guess I am going to try and be happy as a Protestant, because apparently this isn’t just going to happen for me. It just kills me that I have to pay for my husband’s screw up, but I know he doesn’t want to end the marriage, and I don’t really want to either, even though it has crossed my mind, that’s how strongly I feel I’m being called to become Catholic. I guess I’ll just have to wait longer.

But see, THAT’s the thing: THAT is exactly what Catholics believe marriage to be. It’s why I’m not married. Catholics believe that in a marriage, you agree to share successes and screw ups equally and together forever. You take a person, complete with ALL their mistakes, and you say that you want them, their baggage, their past, their future, ALL of it. Forever. No matter how it may later come up. No matter what it may later force you to sacrifice. Catholic marriage IS paying for your partner’s screw ups. Your partner’s past is the price you pay for their future. 

But if what you DON’T want in a marriage is our idea of exactly what a marriage is, are we really a good fit for you? 

I think you may be using Catholicism to put words to issues in your relationship. I would encourage you to study more and separate the two. 

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99bottlesofPlexus
33 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

But see, THAT’s the thing: THAT is exactly what Catholics believe marriage to be. It’s why I’m not married. Catholics believe that in a marriage, you agree to share successes and screw ups equally and together forever. You take a person, complete with ALL their mistakes, and you say that you want them, their baggage, their past, their future, ALL of it. Forever. No matter how it may later come up. No matter what it may later force you to sacrifice. Catholic marriage IS paying for your partner’s screw ups. Your partner’s past is the price you pay for their future. 

But if what you DON’T want in a marriage is our idea of exactly what a marriage is, are we really a good fit for you? 

I think you may be using Catholicism to put words to issues in your relationship. I would encourage you to study more and separate the two. 

So I agree to accept his screw ups, which is a very Catholic thing, yet I still can’t be Catholic? That doesn’t make sense to me.

Thanks to everybody who tried to help. I think I have my answer, which is stay Protestant and get marriage therapy.

Edited by 99bottlesofPlexus

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