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Questions about becoming Catholic


99bottlesofPlexus

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Honestly, you just had a baby three months ago. You're expressing an immense amount of resentment toward your husband. It sounds like you don't even like the guy. It sounds like the two of you aren't on the same page at all and are having some major issues communicating and respecting each other.

I'm sorry if I'm completely off base, but since you've asked for advice, I'll go ahead and give my opinion. I understand and sympathize with feeling a strong pull toward something like this, but I think what you should be focusing on right now is your marriage. Take the time to decide whether it's worth it to you to stay married, or whether you want to walk away. What would be the point of forcing your husband to seek an annulment, even if he were successful, if your marriage ends up ruined anyway? Prioritize your marriage/whether you want to stay married to this person first. The Catholic Church will still be there once you've had the chance to work through that.

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8 hours ago, feministxtian said:

That annulment thing is rubbish...my mother went to communion even though she was married to a divorced man. Those rules really are bullshit. Just go to a parish where you don't know anyone, stand in line and BOOM!

I was born, raised, baptized, confirmed and educated Roman Catholic. I left over 20 years ago for many reasons. My husband was also baptized Catholic. Neither one of us feel any need to remain so. 

For you and your husband, try to find some sort of compromise. Don't let this be the hill to kill your marriage on. 

One of the weird things is about whether a marriage is valid or not in the Church. My dad and mom divorced (he cheated and married the woman he cheated with). No annulment-both sides agree on this. It's a hard process and isn't the dissolving of a marriage as much as saying the married never happened (that it was never valid).  There are only a few reasons, lots of interviews/levels and they pry into everything and speak to everyone. It is a very painful (and can be expensive) process, even if everyone is in agreement. Let alone if one side or the other is uncertain. After 35 years of my parents being married, that is saying something about it never having happened. It did happen and trying to say it didn't is hard and very different from saying it didn't work

As for communion, my Mom can take communion with the full blessing of the church (as she is not re-married). Then there's my Dad and his new wife. Since my Dad is re-married after being divorced, he cannot take communion. However, his wife can. She was widowed so according to the church their married is valid on her end but invalid on my  Dad's. She chooses to sit out communion with my father.

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9 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Until the marriage is annulled, the Church recognizes his first marriage as remaining valid.  That means that she is the other woman and living in open sin/contradiction to the laws of the church. You cannot be in full communion with the Church while living in open contradiction to Church laws, so you cannot receive the sacraments. Upside: she wouldn’t need to get this marriage annulled because it doesn’t exist in the eyes of the Church.

The French kings took open mistresses and were often in struggle with the Church, and those were KINGS. Laypeople, they’re much more comfortable cutting off. 

I’m sorry, but I am going to speak VERY frankly and as a Catholic here: if you don’t understand what the big deal is, you don’t fully appreciate what you are asking him to do.  It is a HUGE deal.  It is a huge ORDEAL. It is a long, exhausting process that forces a person to expose everything before a complete stranger. And do you even have grounds?!? If they were free to marry and entered into that marriage under God, that’s mostly it. Catholics don’t recognize “it didn’t work out”. That’s the whole split with the CofE. If the marriage vows were never made before God you might have something, but otherwise the Catholic Church believes marriage vows to be LIFELONG vows that fundamentally CANNOT be dissolved except by God Himself. The Church literally believes they CANNOT cancel a marriage made before God, they can only recognize that the marriage was never made to begin with. 

Annulments are huge, massive deals. My parents had 7 priests celebrate their wedding, almost all of my parents’ AND grandparents’ friends are Catholic, and I didn’t even have a non-Catholic friend until I was 12. I know a TON of Catholics, including ones in your position. I know 0 people who have gotten annulments. They are the unicorns of Catholicism: you hear about them, but no one has ever seen one.  Again, I knew a woman well who fought for over a YEAR for an annulment from a man who BEAT HER AND HER KIDS, compiled stacks of evidence, had multiple people testify on her behalf, and they told her it wasn’t granted because it only happened twice and she didn’t try hard enough to repair the relationship. If you think you’re going to get an annulment for a routine mistake, you don’t know this Church. And you should study more, because I worry you really don’t understand the practices and doctrines as well as you should before making such a drastic decision. 

I know several people who have got annulments. Five couples I can think of off the top of my head. One guy got not one, but two marriages annulled at the time he joined the Church. One couple whose wedding party I was in got the marriage annulled (and justifiably so). 

And the process has been streamlined and made easier and less expensive recently. 

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9 hours ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Trust me, I’m trying to come to a compromise. Apparently, that means neither of us will be happy. Although, honestly, the damage may already be done. I told him tonight that I will only accept therapy if he goes with me. He wasn’t very receptive to that. 

Ultimatums are always a bad idea, and don't cut off your nose to spite yourself.  I would recommend that you seek out short term individual therapy as you negotiate this minefield.  Marriage therapy can wait - forcing him into it will help nothing.

9 hours ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

So I agree to accept his screw ups, which is a very Catholic thing, yet I still can’t be Catholic? That doesn’t make sense to me.

Agreeing to accept your spouse's past experiences and their present feelings, beliefs, and failings is key to a successful marriage.   Marriage is all about compromise - from both parties.

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Thanks to everybody who tried to help. I think I have my answer, which is stay Protestant and get marriage therapy.

No.  Again, I think individual therapy would be good idea as you deal with this issue.  It is complex and is obviously making you unhappy.

It doesn't matter whether it is a true crisis of faith, dissatisfaction with your husband and marriage, or even post-partum issues (as he seems to be suggesting), individual therapy will be helpful.

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Sorry, but I’m still really struggling with the idea that accepting his past and everything means I need to be unhappy. Particularly when he can get what he wants, but I can’t. It feels like I have to accept his beliefs, but he doesn’t have to accept mine, all because it’s going to take some sacrifices and stepping outside of his comfort zone. I had no idea when I married him that I was going to feel so strongly about becoming Catholic one day.

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11 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

but I’m still really struggling with the idea that accepting his past and everything means I need to be unhappy.

Did you know his past when you married him? If so, this is less to do with him, because it sounds like he is the same person you married. You changed and now you want to force him to change to suit you and that will never work out.  Invalidating a marriage is a HUGE deal for some people. My husband would be very upset if I told him that I wanted him to annul his first marriage. That is a part of him that I shouldn't force him to erase. 

If there was a man blogging about how he wanted his wife to change in a way she was uncomfortable with to suit his religious needs, we would rightly snark on that. And despite was @Gabe seems to think, people here aren't always going to side with a woman. Just because in this situation it is a woman asking a man to change for religious reasons doesn't mean it is okay. 

You keep blaming your husband for you being unhappy, but it sounds like you are the one who has changed and now you want to force him into doing something that will make him unhappy. If you can't compromise, then it is time to talk to a therapist on your own and find out what you really want out of this relationship. 

15 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

It feels like I have to accept his beliefs, but he doesn’t have to accept mine, all because it’s going to take some sacrifices and stepping outside of his comfort zone.

It is never good to suddenly require someone to change themselves to make the other person in the marriage happy.  If you no longer can accept that part of him, go get individual therapy and find if you truly wanting to give up your marriage over this issue. If this is an issue you won't be able to let go, then it is best for both of you to find this out instead of staying married as one/both of you growing more and more resentful. 

Please realize that this has more to do with the church having rules that prevent you from becoming a full member as opposed to HIM preventing you. He seems to be the easy one to blame right now, but the Catholic church is the one keeping you out, not him. Your anger needs to go towards them. They can change their rules. 

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7 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Sorry, but I’m still really struggling with the idea that accepting his past and everything means I need to be unhappy.

You don't.  You may have to make big changes in your life though.  Only you can decide what those changes are.  Again, I suggest therapy.  Preferably secular individual therapy to help you sort through this.  Internet forums can't do that.

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Particularly when he can get what he wants, but I can’t. It feels like I have to accept his beliefs, but he doesn’t have to accept mine, all because it’s going to take some sacrifices and stepping outside of his comfort zone. I had no idea when I married him that I was going to feel so strongly about becoming Catholic one day.

And that is a real pity.  So you screwed up too.  Unintentionally.  

However it sounds as though your marriage is in deep trouble even without the "I want to be a Catholic" bit.  

Look at this:

13 hours ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Is this worth losing my marriage over - Honestly, I don’t know. That’s how strongly I feel about it.

Will I hold it against him if he doesn’t get the annulment - yes

Will I resent him - I already do. I’m tired of having to keep his wants/needs/comfort in mind all the time.

And this:  

12 hours ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Those of you who think this about more than religion are right. I’m just tired of having to keep him happy/comfortable all the time. I just want him to go the distance for me, for once.

It really sounds as though you can't stand him.  

Work on yourself first.  The only person you can change is yourself.   So focus on you, your feelings, and how you really want to proceed for the next several months.  I'd also urge you not to burn all your boats with your husband prematurely. 

And, I'm sorry but your husband's feelings and needs have to be considered too.  He is half of the marriage you both signed up for, even though your faith has changed.  

You are now a parent.  It is not just your happiness that needs to be considered here either, although I would recommend divorce over staying together simply for the sake of the child.  

You seem to have got him to agree to revisit the question of an annulment in a year.  You can take that time to sort out all those feelings.  The Catholic Church isn't going anywhere.

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41 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Sorry, but I’m still really struggling with the idea that accepting his past and everything means I need to be unhappy. Particularly when he can get what he wants, but I can’t. It feels like I have to accept his beliefs, but he doesn’t have to accept mine, all because it’s going to take some sacrifices and stepping outside of his comfort zone. I had no idea when I married him that I was going to feel so strongly about becoming Catholic one day.

When my parents met, conceived me, and had a civil wedding, my mother was a lapsed Catholic.  After my dad became more abusive and controlling, moved her away from her family, chased friends away, and she was left with 2 little kids and little else, she threw herself into her faith and became intensely Catholic.  My dad didn't stand in the way of her raising us Catholic, but the extent of his participation was going to church with us on Christmas.  Oh, and marrying her in the church to "shut her up".  They're divorcing now, finally and thank everything good in the universe, after 38 years of marriage.  My mother has asked me if I could write up what I remember (things he's told me, things I remember from the time of their church marriage) to help her if she decides to apply for an annulment.  It literally makes me want to die.

Be Catholic if you are feeling called, if the church brings you comfort and joy like it does my mother.  Please don't force it on your husband and children like my mother did.  She didn't get anywhere with my father, but she made our lives hell and we all carry the scars.  

As others have said, if you were baptized Catholic, you are Catholic.  They have you.  You can't be not Catholic, it's an indelible mark binding you to them whether you want it to or not, whether you chose it or not.  

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I truly don’t see where I’m “forcing” I’m to be Catholic. I just want him to look more closely at getting an annulment from a woman he admits he never should have married in the first place. Also, I may be Catholic because I was baptized that way, but I still can’t participate in Eucharist, which is what I want. And telling me to do it anyway and no one will know the difference isn’t the answer I need, because I know the difference.

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8 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

I truly don’t see where I’m “forcing” I’m to be Catholic.

I'm not saying you are forcing him to be Catholic, but you are wanting to force him to change in a way he isn't comfortable. To you it annulment may not seem to be a big deal, but to him it obviously is. so you are asking him to fairly drastically change  a part of his life history because of your religious beliefs. You want to place all the blame on him when it appears that you are the one who has changed in regards to accepting his first marriage and the Catholic church is the one who has created the rules that are keeping you out. 

 

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Pretty sure the only reason why he doesn’t want to get the annulment is because it’s too much work, not because he actually cares about his first marriage. So, basically, I need to just shut up and put his comfort over mine. That’s what it sounds like.

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15 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

I truly don’t see where I’m “forcing” I’m to be Catholic. I just want him to look more closely at getting an annulment from a woman he admits he never should have married in the first place. Also, I may be Catholic because I was baptized that way, but I still can’t participate in Eucharist, which is what I want. And telling me to do it anyway and no one will know the difference isn’t the answer I need, because I know the difference.

I would just point out, as others have, that the thing standing in your way here is not your husband but the Catholic Church. The Church made these rules, not your husband. The Church is the entity saying you can't participate in Eucharist - not your husband. I can understand and even sympathize with your frustration - truly, I can. But is it possible you're using this Catholic issue as a convenient outlet for your frustrations with your husband in general? So that you have something easy to point to and say, "Aha! This asshole won't let me be Catholic just because he's stubborn"? I've had experiences like that in my life, where something or some relationship I was involved in just felt wrong, but for the life of me I couldn't put my finger on it or neatly verbalize what exactly the issue actually was. That's immensely frustrating, and it can definitely be tempting to even subconsciously create a scapegoat to project your frustrations onto so that you at least have something to label as 'the problem'.

I don't know you, or your husband, so I can't judge what's going on in your marriage. It sounds like you're in a really tough situation, and I agree with others that individual therapy could be really beneficial for you. Please note that suggesting therapy does NOT mean that we think you're in the wrong or you're 'crazy' or anything like that. Sometimes the crap we have to deal with in life is so complicated and confusing that we need a trained person to help us untangle it and start to make sense of it all. Everyone - like every single person on earth - can benefit from therapy.

My main advice now would be to breathe. Pause. Approach this with patience and an open mind. Definitely seek counselling if that's an option for you, because it sounds like you have a lot to deal with (a strained marriage, new religious issues, and a new baby - that's a lot, and it would put stress on anyone). With time, these things usually become clearer. 

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I was saying forced in regards to your husband because if you want to be married in the church, so that you can receive communion, he would need to participate in the sacrament.  I assume you would also be setting household rules that align with Catholicism.

I would suggest speaking to a priest - make an appointment.  Tell him your situation and desires and your pain.  Ask what you can do.  It's very possible you would be given permission to take communion.  

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Lapsed Catholic here - but just adding in that maybe you should work on studying up on the sacraments before demanding an annulment. I mean - right now - you couldn't "really" take Communion in the church if you wanted to. You've been baptized, but not received the first confession/reconciliation (you can tell how long it's been since mine!) or your first communion. 

I think being Catholic isn't just ticking the boxes of the sacraments, it's also the journey of discovery OF the faith. 
Look at me - I ticked all the boxes except marriage and I am SOOOOO not Catholic. (I do wish they'd put the mass back the way they found it - then I might feel welcome again) 

Additionally - I agree with others on the "find a different Catholic church". There are some wonderful churches who may welcome you with open arms. Even if your marriage isn't validated in the church - you can still be a member in good standing - going to church etc etc. (in my experience at least). 
And with regards to pushing your husband - he didn't sign up for this. He isn't in the head space to join the church right now but it doesn't really sound like he'd prevent you from doing it. And as for raising your child Catholic - that would be a tough pill for ANYone to swallow three months after having a baby and having had NO conversation about it before hand. 
I went through confirmation in the Church and then dropped off - and Hubby is NOT religious at all (raised Mennonite) but we HAD conversations about how we'd raise our future children eventually. From the beginning. So this has to be coming at him straight out of left field - and that's tough. 

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5 minutes ago, IntrinsicallyDisordered said:

I was saying forced in regards to your husband because if you want to be married in the church, so that you can receive communion, he would need to participate in the sacrament.  I assume you would also be setting household rules that align with Catholicism.

I would suggest speaking to a priest - make an appointment.  Tell him your situation and desires and your pain.  Ask what you can do.  It's very possible you would be given permission to take communion.  

I have already spoken with a priest about this, and was told these is nothing that can be done unless he gets an annulment. As for attending another Catholic Church, I live in a small town and there is only one Catholic Church here.

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5 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

So, basically, I need to just shut up and put his comfort over mine.

No, that isn't what people are saying.  Realize that if he not annulling his marriage will cause you to be bitter and resent him forever then perhaps this marriage isn't meant to be. That is okay if you realize that.  There is nothing wrong with finding out that a marriage isn't going to workout. There is also nothing wrong with him not wanting to annul a marriage for whatever reason he has or questioning raising his child in the Catholic church.  

Seek therapy from a non-religious therapist and perhaps also go talk to a priest and explain that the Catholic rules are ruining your marriage. See what he says. If you want to stay married you will have to shift from heaping all the blame on your husband for making you unhappy and towards accepting that you have changed(which is okay, people change) and the Catholic church is preventing you from joining. If you continue to view this as your husband preventing you and not the Catholic church it will be extremely hard to make the marriage work. 

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3 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

So, basically, I need to just shut up and put his comfort over mine. That’s what it sounds like.

Unfortunately, that's also what the Catholic church teaches. Submit to your husband and place your mariage above all other earthly endeavors. You won't find much support from inside the Catholic church (from the clergy, I mean), if you decide to leave your husband over this.

Catholics are called to sainthood and there are many saints who were "unequally yoked", or even in horribly abusive marriages. https://catholicsaints.info/patrons-of-difficult-marriages/ Consider it a cross to bear and a sacrifice the Lord will remember in Heaven. Catholics generally glorify suffering in silence.

>> I'm obviously being sarcastic about all this because I have my own beef with the traditional Roman Catholic Church. They have damaged so many people's personal lives with their stupidly rigid rules and patriarchal views. 90% of their followers don't even follow the rules of the Cathechism, notably on birth control. What does that say about their institution?

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Just now, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

I have already spoken with a priest about this, and was told these is nothing that can be done unless he gets an annulment.

Did you explain that the Catholic church created rules that are causing massive problems in your marriage? If not, I would try asking that and see what the response is. 

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24 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Pretty sure the only reason why he doesn’t want to get the annulment is because it’s too much work, not because he actually cares about his first marriage. So, basically, I need to just shut up and put his comfort over mine. That’s what it sounds like.

You seem stuck on this concept.  I don't think anyone has said that you should do that.  Suggestions that you should take time and assess what you want in your life are not telling you to shut up.  Neither are suggestions that he may need time to consider whether he wants to get an annulment "putting his comfort over yours."

This is a rule of the Catholic Church.  I second the recommendations by @IntrinsicallyDisordered and @Meggo to find a priest who will listen to you.  Find another priest or seven before you give up.   There may be a solution without "forcing" your husband to get an annulment.

What do you want from us?  We can't change the rules of the Catholic Church.  Sympathy?  

OK, I'm very sorry you are going through this.  I hope it all gets sorted out to your satisfaction.

I also repeat my recommendation to get some individual therapy before working up to marriage counselling with your husband.  I think both would be a good idea.  The way you talk about him makes him sound very selfish.  However, your attitude towards him seems very angry, selfish, impatient and demanding.  I sense that your marriage may be in more trouble than just the annulment problem.

And, just as a matter of academic interest, a question for all the Catholics here:  is taking the Eucharist while not in the right state of grace, or without the sacrament of marriage, just ineffective?  Or is it a sin?  If so, would that be a venal or a mortal sin?

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Taking the Eucharist while not in a state of grace is a mortal sin.  

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43 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Pretty sure the only reason why he doesn’t want to get the annulment is because it’s too much work, not because he actually cares about his first marriage. So, basically, I need to just shut up and put his comfort over mine. That’s what it sounds like.

On what grounds would he ask for an annulment?  According to the US Council of Bishops, the criterion for a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church are as follows:

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(1) the spouses are free to marry; (2) they are capable of giving their consent to marry; (3) they freely exchange their consent; (4) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another, and be open to children; (5) they intend the good of each other; and (6) their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister.

WHICH one of those would you be asking him to maintain never happened?  That he lied at the altar?  That he intended to ruin his spouse's life?  

You keep saying this is such an easy thing.  It's not.  If he TRULY DOES NOT BELIEVE that his marriage was invalid, that's kind of it.  It seems he believes he DID have a valid marriage, but that it was simply a mistake.  That's much, much different.  You're asking him to re-write his entire past.  I would be LIVID if someone asked me to do that, even about the exes that I purely despise.  Because those relationships still happened.  Because those were still major parts of my life, even if they were BAD parts.  Those parts of my life are VALID, and it's offensive to ask me to invalidate them.  Which is PRECISELY what an annulment is: an invalidation of a marriage. 

You're asking him to be someone he's not and feel a way he doesn't.  He simply can't do that.  It may not be that he's unwilling to work for you, but what you are asking here may be something he simply CANNOT do.

I sure as hell wouldn't walk into a Tribunal and lie.  I know people who HATE the Catholic Church, and I don't think even they would walk into a Tribunal and lie.  You married THIS person with THIS past, and now you are asking him to be someone completely different.  He can't do that.  He can't go back in time.  You're setting him up to fail, and I think you need to ask yourself why.  

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It is a really hard situation you are in. Your husband will need to get an annullment and I believe you will have to marry him in the Church. Will he be willing to do that? 

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@Palimpsest, receiving the Eucharist while not in a state of grace would be considered sacrilege.  While that would be a serious sin, it might not be a mortal sin as I was taught. I was received in into a more liberal Catholic Church (at least it was more liberal on the USA in the 70s) and we considered very few sins to be mortal sins.  

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56 minutes ago, IntrinsicallyDisordered said:

 I assume you would also be setting household rules that align with Catholicism.

I'm thinking really hard here, but I can't think of a household rule we have that "aligns with Catholicism". All I can come up with is not eating meat on Friday during Lent, but surely that won't kill the poor man. Or you know, she can fry him a burger while she eats something else or they can go out and he can have steak and she can have fish. Other than that, I'm not coming up with any household rules that "align with Catholicism" and I'm a convert married to a cradle Catholic. 

But I guess if you really believe we're a cult, you assume we have a lot of hidden daily rules???? 

5 minutes ago, Candydandy said:

It is a really hard situation you are in. Your husband will need to get an annullment and I believe you will have to marry him in the Church. Will he be willing to do that? 

They will not have to "marry in the church". It would amount to a small service to bless the existing marriage. I know people who have remarried without an annulment then done it when the annulment was completed. It's not a big deal. 

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12 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

On what grounds would he ask for an annulment?  According to the US Council of Bishops, the criterion for a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church are as follows:

WHICH one of those would you be asking him to maintain never happened?  That he lied at the altar?  That he intended to ruin his spouse's life?  

You keep saying this is such an easy thing.  It's not.  If he TRULY DOES NOT BELIEVE that his marriage was invalid, that's kind of it.  It seems he believes he DID have a valid marriage, but that it was simply a mistake.  That's much, much different.  You're asking him to re-write his entire past.  I would be LIVID if someone asked me to do that, even about the exes that I purely despise.  Because those relationships still happened.  Because those were still major parts of my life, even if they were BAD parts.  Those parts of my life are VALID, and it's offensive to ask me to invalidate them.  Which is PRECISELY what an annulment is: an invalidation of a marriage. 

You're asking him to be someone he's not and feel a way he doesn't.  He simply can't do that.  It may not be that he's unwilling to work for you, but what you are asking here may be something he simply CANNOT do.

I sure as hell wouldn't walk into a Tribunal and lie.  I know people who HATE the Catholic Church, and I don't think even they would walk into a Tribunal and lie.  You married THIS person with THIS past, and now you are asking him to be someone completely different.  He can't do that.  He can't go back in time.  You're setting him up to fail, and I think you need to ask yourself why.  

So what do I do? Just forget about it, and follow his religion?

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