Mr & Mrs Jill Duggar 60: The Shilling Dillards

[SassyPants]

16 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Personally, when discussing the Bates and Duggars specifically I’m of the belief that wearing pants is in no way a sign that they’re moving away from their harmful fundamentalist beliefs. It’s absolutely a sign that they disagree with their parents’ on that specific issue, but I don’t think it indicates anything more than that - especially since skirts only was more of a suggestion from IBLP leadership than an actual requirement (for everyday life at least.) It could be a completely different story with another flavor of fundamentalists though. It really depends on the specific beliefs and teachings of the group in my opinion. 

I don’t mind if people want to discuss the fashion changes. It’s normal to be curious, especially when the person comes from a reality tv family known for only wearing skirts. I do mind when people start claiming that someone is 100% escaping from IBLP because they wear pants or sleeveless tops though, especially when there is little to no other supportive evidence they can cite. That’s likely why you see such pushback in some threads, especially the one for Alyssa Webster.

Personally I've never read any comment claiming pants wearing being a 100% indication of anything. I agree that pants wearing, especially by a female Duggar or Bates (nee), is an indication that a person has decided that they disagree with their parents/Gothard/Phillips et al on the skirts=modesty and pants=slut issue. A weakening in the armor is a first step. I do believe having the balls to display that very, very obvious from even a glance, cue, that one is starting to become an individual and think for themself  should not be ignored.

Wearing pants is telling the world they are starting to see holes in what they were taught to be important values- No hiding behind locked doors needed.

 

[Palimpsest]

11 hours ago, Lisafer said:

I'd say several of us took our upbringing and stomped the hell out of it. I have no doubt some of these fundie kids will do the same.

I have no doubt either that some will.  Probably many will.  I hope so.  

We have plenty of examples of people who have kicked that hate filled form of fake Christianity to the curb.  Some members here, and the existence of places like Recovering Grace, HA, and SSB.  They don't necessarily kick Christianity to the curb, usually just the more perverted aspects that these corrupt "Christian" leaders teach.

It doesn't happen overnight for most, it is a process.  I still have high hopes for Kristina (of the no-touch courtship and engagement at Arby's.)  She still harbors some nasty beliefs, but is now no longer convicted to be skirts-only, sending her children to public school, and attending a more main-stream church.

33 minutes ago, Frumper said:

SBC churces are not all the same. There isn't a central authority, like Catholism or Mormonism that says "this is what you have to believe in order to be baptist."  A central tenant of being baptist is that each church governs itself.  There can be statements galore at SBC conventions, but each church ultimately makes its own decisions.  The SBC church that I grew up in, and that my parents still attend, have ordained women deacons, had a female assistant pastor (now retired), and some of the most politically liberal people I know go to church there.  Now to be fair, the vote to ordain women caused a deep divide in the church and many people left over it, but no one from some central governing body swooped in and said "you're not a southern baptist church anymore."  The members made their own decision.

This is true.  It is not unlike IFB in that sense - there is a big range of beliefs but no real governing body or authority to discipline rogue pastors and false doctrine.

What I was saying above is that the leadership has been getting more extreme and anti-women over the last couple of decades.  That is why I hope for an official schism.  Given the recent scandals it might happen soon.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/06/12/southern-baptist-convention-meets-amid-turmoil-over-gender/?utm_term=.a3c9af09c255

It is the same with churches that call themselves "nondenominational."  You can get good ones, but there are some that are very cult-like.  

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Personally I've never read any comment claiming pants wearing being a 100% indication of anything. I agree that pants wearing, especially by a female Duggar or Bates (nee), is an indication that a person has decided that they disagree with their parents/Gothard/Phillips et al on the skirts=modesty and pants=slut issue. A weakening in the armor is a first step. I do believe having the balls to display that very, very obvious from even a glance, cue, that one is starting to become an individual and think for themself  should not be ignored.

Wearing pants is telling the world they are starting to see holes in what they were taught to be important values- No hiding behind locked doors needed.

No.  It is telling the world that their headship has changed and they don't feel personally convicted to be skirts-only.

If you actually look at what Gothardites say - matters of dress are always "personal convictions" not requirements.  So although people like Gothard dictated skirts-only uniforms at his conventions and gatherings, families could make up their own minds.  Or rather the Patriarch officially decided whether the wimmin-folk needed to be skirts-only. 

The (former) VF crew are far less "modest" and infinitely fewer were personally convicted about the evils of pants on women.  Ben and Jeremy come more from that background.  Some of them also drink and smoke cigars.  They are still deep into the Patriarchy and female submission though.  Also note that a sub-set of the former VF crowd (the Kinists) are overtly racist in a way that makes the Bates's shrine to Nathan Bedford Forrest look almost benign.

Steve Maxwell is probably the most strict about female dress of the lot.  And the most extreme about sheltering his children. The guy has sex on the brain so much that contrasting buttons make him think naughty thoughts about breasts!

So the pants-wearing by the adult female married Duggar and Bates children might perhaps be an indicator that their beliefs are changing either slightly or radically.  It is not proof, however.

It is far more likely that their husbands don't see skirts-only as a requirement and that they don't feel personally convicted to wear skirts themselves.  I'll eat my hat if any of them are going against their Headships wishes in how they dress.

[tabitha2]

Maybe but the VF /Phillips crowd of which the Duggars and Bates were apart of as well has always been a mix of mainly pant wearers  and mainly skirt wears and those who did both. It was not one of the core issues they were prepared to totally condemn females as slutty harlots bound for Hell in any case. So I really don’t see much of chink in any armor. 

[Lisafer]

2 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Thanks to @Lisafer and @louisa05. I do frustrated with the "oh my gosh, they didn't loudly and publicly renounce every single one of their heavily pressured  childhood beliefs that impact their whole social structure and all they have ever known ten minutes after they left home for the very 1st time! That means they are going to be fundies until they die, die, diiiiee!" Many of posters on FJ are living proof that people do indeed leave fundamentalism every single day. When I left most people in my inner circle didn't know until I told them. I am still not "out" as an atheist to extended family. I attended public schools k-12  and have a bachelors from a public university. It took me until age 34 to leave fundamentalism. 

I'm 30, and it was only in the past year or so that I left Christianity and started wholeheartedly accepting myself as a practicing witch. Most of my family doesn't know that I'm not Christian anymore, besides other things about me that I'm not ready to share. 

And I'm sure, if the Duggar children leave the fold, that there will be lag time as one poster said, while their public persona catches up to their private life. 

[KelseyAnn]

On 6/25/2018 at 6:04 PM, Rachel333 said:

Regarding ticks, Lyme disease isn't much of an issue in Arkansas. Growing up, finding a tick on you really wasn't a big deal so it seemed odd to me when I moved and people would freak out about ticks.

Seriously, this. I remember being a camp counselor and just having the kids line up after hikes for tick removal. It just seemed a part of life, really. 

[NakedKnees]

While I realize there are numerous exceptions in beliefs surrounding LGBT rights, abortion/birth control, and gender equality among IFB and SBC churches, I do think it is important to recognize that at its core those are among the nastiest beliefs of "fundies," and they're a lot more common than we often think. In my experience going to pretty open and friendly evangelical churches in Southern California, I still heard a lot of "hate the sin, not the sinner" stuff, which was a lot more acceptable in mainstream culture 15-20 years now than it is now (thankfully). I wouldn't be surprised if that attitude is more "normal" than the urge to harass trans teens on Twitter in conservative Christianity as a whole.

However, I think there may be a modicum of value in the Duggar kids going to proper community churches at all. In some ways, it seems to me like a step up from home-churching, even if the beliefs are still the same. They can mix with more people and the grand-Duggars will probably adjust to socializing outside of their family differently than the 19 Duggar kids have. Of course, these could be evil, abusive, cultlike, or otherwise bad communities, but so far a part of me is inclined to think that a community is better than none.

It still grosses me out though. I don't want come off as complimenting entities like Cross Church.

[Pecansforeveryone]

Thank you @NakedKnees. I def agree with 3 of the big unwavering issues being abortion, LGBT issues, and gender equality. Modest dress, family planning for married couples, tatoos and piercings, alcohol consumption, worldly entertainment, and even getting a divorce are generally overlooked in "hip" fundie circles. I had a former friend who would post pictures of her bikini, clad self drinking cocktails on the beach. She holds a Masters degree from the University of Arizona. She had gotten a divorce from her husband whom she had married in a covenant marriage. She had then gotten pregnant by her "Christian" boyfriend who she had to dump when she found out he was using drugs. (She told me her birth control failed.) She continues to go on mission trips while attending a church that preaches against abortion, homosexuality, and gender equality. Fundies can justify anything they set their minds to. (I think non-fundie can, too) I just think fundies can elevate cognitive dissonance to an art form. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

My fundy Inlaws hated my guts when I left fundy HB.  They are all dead now except for ex fundy HB.  Still looking forward to that! Haha.

[VelociRapture]

@Frumper Speaking personally, I think all of these couples are causing harm in similar and different ways. For example, the Websters and others towards the top of my list make their brand of fundamentalism look normal and appealing. Even on FJ you’ll occasionally stumble over a comment or two about someone having to actively remind themself that X couple has dangerous beliefs because they’re that good at coming across in a positive light. The Smuggars and others at the bottom of the list don’t do that because they’re such spectacular assholes in public that you can’t help but be constantly reminded of their beliefs. So the top of the list is far more dangerous in that way than the bottom of the list. 

That said, all of the adults in the Bates and Duggar families very likely vote for politicians who are more than happy to support legislation that promotes their religious beliefs. We know that the Websters have supported John’s father, that Whitney Bates and Kelton Balka voted for Trump, and that the Duggars in general supported people like Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee. We’re witnessing first hand right now exactly what happens when people like the Bateses and Duggars help elect politicians who believe as they do or pretend to believe as they do. So all the adults I these families are dangerous for that reason too - they elect politicians who have the power to severely screw up a lot of people’s lives.

[nelliebelle1197]

On 6/24/2018 at 2:12 AM, luv2laugh said:

I am in the minority but these are BIG changes for someone like golden fundie daughter Jill. Jill used to love preaching her holier than thou modesty beliefs and came off arrogant. I believe she still has hateful beliefs but is now fundie-light Southern Baptist and no longer IFB fundamentalist. I wouldn’t be surprised if her and Jinger drink wine or beer. I bet the husbands do. I’m also assuming they practice birth control or NFP. She’s not worried about looking like a “rebel” and I wonder what JB and Michelle think. I remember Alyssa said she still had to wear skirts when visiting the Bates home out of respect for her parents’ beliefs. Jessa may SEEM relatable but I still think she’s a fundie, don’t let the cute baby pics fool you. Ben says he doesn’t care if she wears pants and she still won’t be seen in them. Jessa is simply better at hiding her beliefs. Pants may not make one an apostate but a hardcore fundie will never be seen in pants and will debate the issue just like Jill Rod.

The LESS exposure to other people and culture the Duggar offspring have, the more likely they will remain fundie. This is why I expect Joystin and JoKen to be the most fundie, living small town country lives away from diversity and among fundie parents on both sides. I expect the more exposure the others get to people not like them, the more they’ll evolve.

Personally, I think Jinger changed out of truly always wanting diversity from the beginning. I believe as Jill increased her exposure to others, including pants wearing Cathy and college students, her beliefs evolved.

You are absolutely wrong on the pants thing. Plenty of IBLP people and other hardcore fundies are not skirts only. I am sick of this argument, which has been going on for years. @formergothardite @Lisafer both can tell you from experience that you are wrong about this- I know FG can,  I can, and I am fairly certain about Lisa. The fundie world and variety of beliefs are not so limited as you seem to think.

[Lisafer]

5 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

You are absolutely wrong on the pants thing. Plenty of IBLP people and other hardcore fundies are not skirts only. I am sick of this argument, which has been going on for years. @formergothardite @Lisafer both can tell you from experience that you are wrong about this- I know FG can as I can I, and I am fairly certain about Lisa. The fundie world and variety of beliefs are not so limited as you seem to think.

I would have to agree with you, nellie! I knew a lot of fundies growing up and some wore pants and some didn't. My own mother, still harrrrrrdcore fundie, will wear pants now. 

I don't know if people sometimes latch onto dresses-only because it seems like an easy way to identify the fundies? Well guess what, the fundies walk among us and most of the time they look just like us.  

[finnlassie]

This whole long skirt/dress thing is in a way bizarre to me when I view it from a Finnish perspective, as it's not something conservative/fundie christians here in Finland wear - and if they do, they mix it up with the random jeans and trousers a lot of the times. I have some pretty hardcore conservative and rather fundamentalist Christian friends, and they'd not pass the Duggar compound dresscode test. Many people think that I dress modestly, and I pretty much exclusively wear skinny jeans, low cut tanktops and hoodies... and having had followed American modest fashion blogs for about 11 years now, I don't think I'd pass as modest at all lol. Those blogs have been a fun read tho.

BUT, if someone exclusively wears long skirts and dresses and well, looks fundie-ish (like, American fundie), they're more often than not JWs. I suppose they're fundamentalist in their own way...

Oh well. I think I'm gonna go for a midnight skinny dip now.

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@Frumper Speaking personally, I think all of these couples are causing harm in similar and different ways. For example, the Websters and others towards the top of my list make their brand of fundamentalism look normal and appealing. Even on FJ you’ll occasionally stumble over a comment or two about someone having to actively remind themself that X couple has dangerous beliefs because they’re that good at coming across in a positive light. The Smuggars and others at the bottom of the list don’t do that because they’re such spectacular assholes in public that you can’t help but be constantly reminded of their beliefs. So the top of the list is far more dangerous in that way than the bottom of the list. 

That said, all of the adults in the Bates and Duggar families very likely vote for politicians who are more than happy to support legislation that promotes their religious beliefs. We know that the Websters have supported John’s father, that Whitney Bates and Kelton Balka voted for Trump, and that the Duggars in general supported people like Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee. We’re witnessing first hand right now exactly what happens when people like the Bateses and Duggars help elect politicians who believe as they do or pretend to believe as they do. So all the adults I these families are dangerous for that reason too - they elect politicians who have the power to severely screw up a lot of people’s lives.

Quoting myself:

An excellent example of how dangerous these people can be just happened today. SCOTUS Justice Kennedy, who acted as an incredibly important swing vote in some big cases (including the case that won us marriage equality), announced he’ll be retiring at the end of July. That means Trump will have a shot at nominating another Justice, a position which is held for life or until a Justice chooses to retire. It also means we’re very likely to end up with a Supreme Court that leans conservative and that it’ll possibly stay that way for a while. This could have huge implications for decades to come. 

So yeah. These people helped get Trump elected and for that they are always going to be ridiculously dangerous to me, regardless of their fashion choices.

[Pecansforeveryone]

Penn Jillette had uploaded on You Tube where an author made the case that there no was personal identication as "Christian" prior to Roe versus Wade. You were Methodist, Presbytarian, Baptist, Anglican, etc. Each sect distrusted the other. Roe versus Wade give all of the sects an umbrella to band together on. I'm not taking it as absolute truth. I just thought it an was interesting tidbit.

[Lisafer]

25 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Penn Jillette had uploaded on You Tube where an author made the case that there no was personal identication as "Christian" prior to Roe versus Wade. You were Methodist, Presbytarian, Baptist, Anglican, etc. Each sect distrusted the other. Roe versus Wade give all of the sects an umbrella to band together on. I'm not taking it as absolute truth. I just thought it an was interesting tidbit.

Ah...Penn Jillette! I love his series Bullshit! Even when I don't agree with him or find him a bit loose on facts, he's a great entertainer and can really make you think about things! 

[finnlassie]

39 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Penn Jillette had uploaded on You Tube where an author made the case that there no was personal identication as "Christian" prior to Roe versus Wade. You were Methodist, Presbytarian, Baptist, Anglican, etc. Each sect distrusted the other. Roe versus Wade give all of the sects an umbrella to band together on. I'm not taking it as absolute truth. I just thought it an was interesting tidbit.

That's interesting! Here in Finland people quite often prefer to say that they're Lutheran, Pentecostal, Orthodox etc... I hadn't even thought about it! I think I personally say Lutheran (and well, the specific movement within the Finnish Evangelic Lutheran church I'm in) about 75% of the time instead of just Christian. I know that there's people that exclusively go out to make a point of being just Christian, because they don't want to be coined with ANY denomination. They're uh. The one's I've met with this view are a bunch.

 

... and I did go for that skinny dip! I live almost next door to the largest lake in Finland so it's an easy thing. Apparently a kid almost drowned there earlier today (or yesterday, technically??). Oof. Summertime.

[PennySycamore]

@VelociRapture,  I'd not heard the incredibly disturbing new that Justice Kennedy is retiring.  All I've got to say about that is OH SHIT!!!!!!

[Iamtheway]

22 hours ago, mollysmom said:

I guess this just reiterates the fact that not all IFB's are the same. I was raised IFB and honestly, if we saw a woman wearing pants we were told that she wasn't "saved" because "saved" woman knew better than to wear pants. Looking back now I can't believe how fucked up their teachings were but my family still believes that....I'm the pants wearing black sheep (and loving it haha)

I think I would pass the fundie modesty standard at least 90% of the time, and I am as heaten as they come. 

[neurogirl]

This is a conversation we've had again and again and I would just like to say that just because someone voted for Trump does not mean they are fundie. A horrible decision that is revealing the ugliest core of the US, absolutely. Deplorables? Maybe. But fundie, no. I just disagree that half of the US is "fundie." 

So if a fundie maiden works outside the home, spaces their family, has interests beyond the Bible/blog writing/music, wears a variety of clothing types, stops publicly talking about where they are going when they die, and values education either for themselves or their children (so basically living like a normal person) BUT she still holds conservative beliefs/voted for Trump, then I would say that fundie maiden is now Christian conservative. While I would say this woman holds ugly and dangerous beliefs, to me it's still different than being fundamentalist. 

We need a master checklist with point values and different point brackets for different definitions. Like "hasn't posted about a political or religious issue in a year +5", "wears pants +1", "has job outside home +3" "children exposed to mainstream media +1", children attend public school +5" etc. 

[VelociRapture]

38 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

@VelociRapture,  I'd not heard the incredibly disturbing new that Justice Kennedy is retiring.  All I've got to say about that is OH SHIT!!!!!!

Yep. Democrats have no way to block due to McConnell changing the rules last time and McConnell already said they’ll be holding hearings/a vote before the midterms. 

2 minutes ago, neurogirl said:

This is a conversation we've had again and again and I would just like to say that just because someone voted for Trump does not mean they are fundie. A horrible decision that is revealing the ugliest core of the US, absolutely. Deplorables? Maybe. But fundie, no. I just disagree that half of the US is "fundie." 

So if a fundie maiden works outside the home, spaces their family, has interests beyond the Bible/blog writing/music, wears a variety of clothing types, stops publicly talking about where they are going when they die, and values education either for themselves or their children (so basically living like a normal person) BUT she still holds conservative beliefs/voted for Trump, then I would say that fundie maiden is now Christian conservative. While I would say this woman holds ugly and dangerous beliefs, to me it's still different than being fundamentalist. 

We need a master checklist with point values and different point brackets for different definitions. Like "hasn't posted about a political or religious issue in a year +5", "wears pants +1", "has job outside home +3" "children exposed to mainstream media +1", children attend public school +5" etc. 

No one said voting Trump automatically makes someone a Fundie. I know several people who aren’t fundie who voted for him. What has been pointed out is that there are people we discuss here who are both fundie and who likely voted for him too.

[Pecansforeveryone]

Its such a weeeeiiird symbois between evangelicals and Trump. I certainly know plenty of evangelicals and Mormons, too who eventually lay back, closed their eyes, and thought of Pence at the voting booth. Trump's presidency is the ultimate in irony. (Among other things). 13 of 14 Republican nominees are devout conservative Christians. The nomination goes to the fool who gives us "two" Corinthians. I mean seriously, would pastors invite Trump to speak and their church while blandly ignoring all his profane and salacious comments? Yeah, having a reflection in the mirror is seriously overrated, amirite?! Well at least, you got your 30 pieces of silver. 

[SilverBeach]

6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

That said, all of the adults in the Bates and Duggar families very likely vote for politicians who are more than happy to support legislation that promotes their religious beliefs. We know that the Websters have supported John’s father, that Whitney Bates and Kelton Balka voted for Trump, and that the Duggars in general supported people like Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee. We’re witnessing first hand right now exactly what happens when people like the Bateses and Duggars help elect politicians who believe as they do or pretend to believe as they do. So all the adults I these families are dangerous for that reason too - they elect politicians who have the power to severely screw up a lot of people’s lives.

Would like this a thousand times if I could. These folks want a theocracy and to impose their morality on everyone. They are indeed dangerous.

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

No one said voting Trump automatically makes someone a Fundie. I know several people who aren’t fundie who voted for him. What has been pointed out is that there are people we discuss here who are both fundie and who likely voted for him too.

We know they voted for Trump because thy loudly proclaim it! They are proud of it!  All people who voted for Dump are not fundy, but all fundies voted for Trump, many of them because they were told to vote for him.

4 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

That means Trump will have a shot at nominating another Justice, a position which is held for life or until a Justice chooses to retire. It also means we’re very likely to end up with a Supreme Court that leans conservative and that it’ll possibly stay that way for a while. This could have huge implications for decades to come.  

Like overturning Roe v. Wade. I shudder at the thought that the government would be back to controlling women's bodies in this way. It's hard enough now to obtain a legal abortion in many places. Gilead here we come.

[SassyPants]

Personally, I'm not talking about any hardcore fundie named any name other than Duggar or Bates. The Duggars, in particular, used to drone all about skirts only being part of their modesty standard for females, based on their dedication to a hardcore belief system-

Based on their own words, wearing pants does indicate a shift from fundie group think to individualism- which, IMO, does indicate a pivot to more individual belief systems.

[feministxtian]

48 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

but all fundies voted for Trump, many of them because they were told to vote for him.

I most certainly DID NOT vote for that piece of shit. As I've said before I have a lot more in common with fundamentalists, theology-wise HOWEVER...that same theology informs my moral/political beliefs, which are NOT anywhere CLOSE to those fucking hypocrites. I've said it before, but I'll repeat myself here. If you want to know what I consider most important faith wise is Matthew 25-31-46, Micah 6:8 and James 1:27. Those fuckers don't wanna hear nothing 'bout no caring for others and 'what you do for the least of these you do to me" stuff. 

I'm pro-choice, quote Stephen Stills on matters of the heart "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with", in favor of nationwide marijuana legalization, in favor of universal health care, a living wage (whether it be raising minimum wage or a guaranteed income sort of thing, I don't know), and can't wait for these fundies who are so hateful and so sure they're "saved" to get to the pearly gates and hear "get away from me, I never knew you". 

[JoiseyGoil]

Would it really be better if these fundie women got the oppertunity to go to college or law school, only to become more Sarah Palins, Betsy DeVoses, Kirstjen Nielsens?