Boyer Sisters Part 7: One Still Creative

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

 

[Carm_88]

Jessica talking about Brigid's pattern and how she illustrates them. 

[AliceInFundyland]

gAAAH! She. Could. Make. Money. And. All. She. Does. Is. Whine. And. Shill. Oils. 

[refugee]

Those are...beautifully rendered.

And for illustrations for a pattern? That’s saying something.

(sewing and I are not on speaking terms)

[catlady]

I just looked at her insta, and her butterflies are just plain amazing. Why oh why isn’t she in art school?

[hoipolloi]

Gotta say that Brigid's & Gabe's most recent work -- making a set of 18th century stays -- is very impressive. 

Don't sew at all but this seems to be a difficult & well-executed piece of sewing:

[Carm_88]

That's super impressive! I also agree that Jessica should be in art school, I think that she would do quite well! 

[Shoobydoo]

Meh. I'm not actually impressed by her renderings. I DID go to art school and took classes in product design, which in my school did include garment design, though not pattern drafting. That style of rendering would not cut it for anything but a small indie designer like her sister. It's Illustrator or GTFO. Not that that's really fair- Adobe has a stranglehold on the creative industry in terms of software. They make the best tools for the job, they know it, and they take advantage of it. They aren't easily attainable resources if you aren't willing to pay out the nose for a CC subscription or resort to piracy.

That said my objection is to the cost of the program-- NOT that standard of illustration. Using Illustrator or some other vector design program would hugely improve the proffesionalism of Brigit's patterns as well as give Jessica a highly valuable still. If she does want to continue using hand rendered images she really ought to be using a ruler. As is, the lines look sloppy. Sure, freehanding it is a style, but there is a place and time for stylistic imagery. Images intended for instruction aren't that place. In this case, the pictures should be as clear as possible so people can understand them easily, hopefully enabling people who arne't already knowledgable in sewing to use the pattern. Use fanciful, flowing lines for accompanying illustrations-- not the instructional ones. 

In the interest of full disclosure, I once did present a project for a product class using hand rendered illustrations. It did not go over well, I only did it because it was the end of the semester and I literally did not have time to do anything else, and since this was our final project (a presentation of designs to fucking 3M, no less) I was incredibly ashamed to do so. I'm honestly surprised I've never had nightmares about that presentation.  

ETA - Do not get me starting about "she could go to art school!" No offense to anyone who has said that, but that is TERRIBLE, GOD AWFUL ADVICE. Yes, you will get training, but the vast majority of art schools, especially the prestigious ones, are INCREDIBLY expensive and even if you land a steady art-related job right out of school (which you will not, unless you specialize in a design field as opposed to the fine arts), it will take a lifetime to pay off the debt. Literally all of my classmates are either drowning in student dept or barely getting by, and less than 50% of them actually work in the industry. Being a successful art student, is the exception, not the rule, and while the educationa nd connections are valuable, in my opinion unless you can cover the majority of the expense through scholarships or generous parents it is absolutely not worth the amount of debt you would take on. (For those wondering, when I graduated 4 or 5 years go I think my school was up to roughly 34K a year for tuition alone. That is not expensive for a private art school.)

That's aside from the fact that liking art as a hobby and being willing to pursue it on a school level are two incredibly different things. Liking to draw butterflies and illustrating your sister's patterns does not mean you are suited to the life of a professional artist. Regardless of how you feel about art, a legitimate are school will eat you, digest you, shit you out, and then piss on your corpse. And that's everyone --  not just the speshul snowflakes. It is a truly insane amount of work and there is absolutely no way to sneak past it. You can't use study tricks or a knack for writing papers to help you produce artwork. It's hard to truly thrive at art school. The average fundie maiden almost definitely would not.

I'm not bitter. What are you talking about?

Edited June 9, 2018 by Shoobydoo
Edited for riffles and ranting

[fluffy]

30 minutes ago, Shoobydoo said:

in my opinion unless you can cover the majority of the expense through scholarships or generous parents it is absolutely not worth the amount of debt you would take on. (For those wondering, when I graduated 4 or 5 years go I think my school was up to roughly 34K a year for tuition alone. That is not expensive for a private art school.)

I agree completely that students must be smart about taking on debt. While I know art school is more specialized than an art department, it seems another step that Jessica could take would be to enroll in classes at a state college, or even get her feet wet at a community college. Just get some more education and have a life!

[Shoobydoo]

4 minutes ago, fluffy said:

I agree completely that students must be smart about taking on debt. While I know art school is more specialized than an art department, it seems another step that Jessica could take would be to enroll in classes at a state college, or even get her feet wet at a community college. Just get some more education and have a life!

And a lot of state schools do have very good (if not very broad) art programs! Depending on where you live, there may be public art classes you can sign up for that are funded at the city or state level. I learned pastels and watercolors from a couple of wonderful teachers in city art classes. Life drawing workshops (sometimes free ones!) are also pretty widespread, but that may involve NUDITY. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Shoobydoo

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

My youngest brother is a self-taught freelance games artist.  He refused to even look into applying to art schools because of the costs and work involved.  I had urged him to have a backup in the trades and offered to help him but he stuck to his art and stuck it out and is becoming successful.  He makes a living and supports himself with his art.  He's very talented and I'm very proud of him.

[Jana814]

I had a classmate in high school who was a very talented artist. He easily could have gotten into art school. However, although he had the talent he didn't have the grades in other classes for art school. 

[FilleMondaine]

7 hours ago, Shoobydoo said:

Meh. I'm not actually impressed by her renderings. I DID go to art school and took classes in product design, which in my school did include garment design, though not pattern drafting. That style of rendering would not cut it for anything but a small indie designer like her sister. It's Illustrator or GTFO. Not that that's really fair- Adobe has a stranglehold on the creative industry in terms of software. They make the best tools for the job, they know it, and they take advantage of it. They aren't easily attainable resources if you aren't willing to pay out the nose for a CC subscription or resort to piracy.

That said my objection is to the cost of the program-- NOT that standard of illustration. Using Illustrator or some other vector design program would hugely improve the proffesionalism of Brigit's patterns as well as give Jessica a highly valuable still. If she does want to continue using hand rendered images she really ought to be using a ruler. As is, the lines look sloppy. Sure, freehanding it is a style, but there is a place and time for stylistic imagery. Images intended for instruction aren't that place. In this case, the pictures should be as clear as possible so people can understand them easily, hopefully enabling people who arne't already knowledgable in sewing to use the pattern. Use fanciful, flowing lines for accompanying illustrations-- not the instructional ones. 

In the interest of full disclosure, I once did present a project for a product class using hand rendered illustrations. It did not go over well, I only did it because it was the end of the semester and I literally did not have time to do anything else, and since this was our final project (a presentation of designs to fucking 3M, no less) I was incredibly ashamed to do so. I'm honestly surprised I've never had nightmares about that presentation.  

ETA - Do not get me starting about "she could go to art school!" No offense to anyone who has said that, but that is TERRIBLE, GOD AWFUL ADVICE. Yes, you will get training, but the vast majority of art schools, especially the prestigious ones, are INCREDIBLY expensive and even if you land a steady art-related job right out of school (which you will not, unless you specialize in a design field as opposed to the fine arts), it will take a lifetime to pay off the debt. Literally all of my classmates are either drowning in student dept or barely getting by, and less than 50% of them actually work in the industry. Being a successful art student, is the exception, not the rule, and while the educationa nd connections are valuable, in my opinion unless you can cover the majority of the expense through scholarships or generous parents it is absolutely not worth the amount of debt you would take on. (For those wondering, when I graduated 4 or 5 years go I think my school was up to roughly 34K a year for tuition alone. That is not expensive for a private art school.)

That's aside from the fact that liking art as a hobby and being willing to pursue it on a school level are two incredibly different things. Liking to draw butterflies and illustrating your sister's patterns does not mean you are suited to the life of a professional artist. Regardless of how you feel about art, a legitimate are school will eat you, digest you, shit you out, and then piss on your corpse. And that's everyone --  not just the speshul snowflakes. It is a truly insane amount of work and there is absolutely no way to sneak past it. You can't use study tricks or a knack for writing papers to help you produce artwork. It's hard to truly thrive at art school. The average fundie maiden almost definitely would not.

I'm not bitter. What are you talking about?

Thanks for this insight! Can I ask what you currently do with your training? Do you use your training? I knew someone who went to art school, and then became a yoga instructor. Every day, she used her body-knowledge from her classical art training. While yoga is not a straight line from art school, her practice was informed by her strong anatomy training. I thought it was so cool.

And I agree with @fluffy that the sense I got from "go to art school" was to broaden horizons, and to find out if she is suited to it after taking a courses at the local community college or community center. Heck, even ascertain if she is suited to learning in a formal environment! Our Jessica may not be a "classroom" kind of girl, and ought to look for something she can do that doesn't involve schooling. (cough cough, get a job)

[Shoobydoo]

3 hours ago, FilleMondaine said:

Thanks for this insight! Can I ask what you currently do with your training? Do you use your training? I knew someone who went to art school, and then became a yoga instructor. Every day, she used her body-knowledge from her classical art training. While yoga is not a straight line from art school, her practice was informed by her strong anatomy training. I thought it was so cool.

Actually, I haven't done any art since I graduated! It's really nice, but also sad, haha. As you might guess I did not have a very positive experience at art school, mostly due to several poorly managed or not managed at all mental health issues all coming to a head (Depression + ADD = nervous breakdown in my fourth semester, wheeeeee). THAT is not art school's fault. That is my fault for refusing to acknowledge and properly manage my issues until I got out of school. My objections about cost are, well, objective, though. Most people I am still in contact with agree that in retrospect it's reeeeaaaaally hard to wholeheartedly reccomend private art school to interested parties. If not because of the cost, because if you don't have the right kind of gumption to do it it will very easily squash the fun out of making art.

Right now I actually work in retail and property management while (re)writing a novel. Most of what I do with my degree is judging other people.  Though, I also use my product design training to aid in drafting crochet patterns. Knowing how to lay out a proportionately correct product diagram and note the necessary measurements saves a loooot of time, trouble, and experimentation.

Sometimes I want to get back into art, and sometimes I don't. I honestly still need a lot of therapy to really unpack my college experience and I doubt I could really make much art until I do that. But I'm also ADD lazy and haven't seen my therapist in 2 or 3 years. I'll add it to my to-do list, along with rescheduling that dentist appointment I canceled in February because of the flu.

I'm a lot less grumpy when it's not like 2 AM. 

[hoipolloi]

11 hours ago, Shoobydoo said:

Not that that's really fair- Adobe has a stranglehold on the creative industry in terms of software. They make the best tools for the job, they know it, and they take advantage of it.

This goes double for their photography and PDF software. Adobe is fucking evil. 

[Shoobydoo]

Just now, hoipolloi said:

This goes double for their photography and PDF software. Adobe is fucking evil. 

I was SO PISSED when they switched to a subscription basis a few years back. It's absolute bullshit, and good luck ever getting hold of a hard copy of an older version.  I haven't had CS on my computer for years, since my hard drive serendipitously died right after school and wiped my school-provided license. (Which we technically weren't supposed to have after graduation, the tech dept was jsut really lazy about actually booting graduates out of the authentication)

I will probably need CS again someday. It would be nice if there was like, a multi-user license so you could split the cost between a few people, but it would probably still be very expensive for each person involved. Or just... "work around" it. *cough*

*Not encouraging people doing a crime. Even it Adobe totally deserves it.

[Carm_88]

The thing about Jessica is that she will never go to art school. I would love to see her take a few classes anywhere and broaden her horizons with anything. I think she's talented, but not passionate. Brigid is clearly passionate about what she does. Jessica may have the most talent in the world, but if she doesn't take the time to nurture it? Nothing is going to happen. Her issues with food and depression need to be sorted before anything truly happens.*

*And we all know that won't happen! Just Jesus! 

[browngrl]

I was looking at Jessica's Instagram and she mentions doing a project for an art class. Could it be that she is actually doing some training? 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by browngrl
edited because: curse you autocorrect!

[AliceInFundyland]

@I went to school for anthropology and then art. I agree with @Shoobydoo that art school and college in general is not a path for the unmotivated.

However, it is just so rare that we see any signs of talent and skill from a fundy, even undeveloped. I think she shows enough competency in enough areas that she could be doing something productive. And if she did get some classes or training, she could be successful.

She does have issues. Issues slow you down.

[Shoobydoo]

21 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

She does have issues. Issues slow you down.

That I can truly sympathize with. 

I really hope Jessica does not buy into the idea that suffering will somehow makes you a better artist. It's a stereotype, but it's also pretty pervasive attitude even amongst actual artists. There is a small number of people who seem to revel in their mental health issues and how it influences their work. I don't want to say that art born from suffering is inherently bad-- but art you have to suffer for isn't worth making, in my opnion. 

I hope she gets the help she needs and is able to make the art she wants to. It doesn't sound like she WANTS to be sick, I just don't know that she'll ever really have the resources to get real help.

[FilleMondaine]

18 hours ago, Shoobydoo said:

Right now I actually work in retail and property management while (re)writing a novel. Most of what I do with my degree is judging other people.  Though, I also use my product design training to aid in drafting crochet patterns. Knowing how to lay out a proportionately correct product diagram and note the necessary measurements saves a loooot of time, trouble, and experimentation.

Sometimes I want to get back into art, and sometimes I don't. I honestly still need a lot of therapy to really unpack my college experience and I doubt I could really make much art until I do that. But I'm also ADD lazy and haven't seen my therapist in 2 or 3 years. I'll add it to my to-do list, along with rescheduling that dentist appointment I canceled in February because of the flu.

I'm a lot less grumpy when it's not like 2 AM. 

I bet that your ability to tell a story with visuals, and a deep understanding of facial structure makes you skilled at judging people!  And I totally get how it feels to take a break from the topic of your studies; it took a long time for me to read fiction after a lit degree. In the meantime, keep posting here Your insights are neat.

[FilleMondaine]

8 hours ago, Shoobydoo said:

I really hope Jessica does not buy into the idea that suffering will somehow makes you a better artist. It's a stereotype, but it's also pretty pervasive attitude even amongst actual artists. There is a small number of people who seem to revel in their mental health issues and how it influences their work. I don't want to say that art born from suffering is inherently bad-- but art you have to suffer for isn't worth making, in my opnion. 

How timely is this: Apparently, there is a new display of Frida Kahlo's work, and it is all about her suffering and its influence on her art. What makes Kahlo different of course, due to her strong sense of self and the way she amplified reality. (At least, that is how I see her oeuvre) Jessica just seems to hurt without direction. It is so so so sad.

Anyhow, just came to beef up your point that suffering and art are not always intertwined. And even when they are (like in Kahlo's case), no one in their right mind would prefer Kahlo's painful life, no matter what genius came with it.

[Palimpsest]

On Jessica, she does lack direction and self esteem.  Also she said at one point that she was a Jack of all trades and not particularly good at anything, unlike her sisters.  We are the ones pointing out that she can draw very well.  The Boyer sisters all call themselves "creatives" but only Brigid seems to be working hard at actually creating things.

Note, I limited it to "Jessica can draw."  That alone does not make an artist.  I can draw quite well too.  She should be training, studying, and experimenting with other media if she wants to make it as an artist.  If she is taking art classes that is great, although it is horribly hard to make a living with art alone.

We don't have any indication that she even wants to make a living through her artwork.  Perhaps she doesn't.  She's faffing around with MLM essential oil sales when she could be taking her art more seriously. 

Jessica's paid jobs so far seem to have been a. working part time as a gardener for a florist business and  b. working for a wedding planner last year.  There are any number of "creative" artsy crafty things that go along with weddings that she could be making and flogging if she wanted to, you know, work at it.  She has connections with the wedding industry already.

I think Jessica could be a good illustrator.  She could be selling her greeting cards on Etsy (as she used to), honing her skills beyond those rather mediocre sketches she is doing for Brigid, and learning how to illustrate children's books.  She could almost certainly do a better job illustrating Moody books than Anna Maxwell, even now.

However, it is going to take work and dedication to turn her talent into a paying proposition.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Palimpsest
clarification

[Lisafer]

10 hours ago, Shoobydoo said:

That I can truly sympathize with. 

I really hope Jessica does not buy into the idea that suffering will somehow makes you a better artist. It's a stereotype, but it's also pretty pervasive attitude even amongst actual artists. There is a small number of people who seem to revel in their mental health issues and how it influences their work. I don't want to say that art born from suffering is inherently bad-- but art you have to suffer for isn't worth making, in my opnion. 

I hope she gets the help she needs and is able to make the art she wants to. It doesn't sound like she WANTS to be sick, I just don't know that she'll ever really have the resources to get real help.

I write. I think my mental health issues have given me a deeper perspective that helps me create characters--but if I didn't have mental health issues I would have written a hell of a lot more than I have! No use having a better perspective if you can't muster up the energy to write a paragraph. 

I hope she takes classes of any kind from a regular school--it's not good to be insulated from other people and their perspectives, and I personally think the challenge would be helpful for her. 

Oh, and here's me being BEC: that set of stays is nice, but take a look at this piece of smoothly-sewed professionalism from Etsy: 

Spoiler

Feel free to correct me, but I'd prefer this one any day.

[FundiesInParis]

Looks like they’re headed to Utah for a YL conference.