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Ultra Orthodox Losing Kids after Fleeing Sect


nelliebelle1197

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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/25/nyregion/orthodox-jewish-divorce-custody-ny.html

The NYT reports that a Brooklyn judge gave sole custody of three kids to their father after their mother refused to raise them in the tenants ultra orthodoxy. The mom left the cult and is now an out lesbian. The father sued for custody and a Brooklyn judge allowed that the mom was in violation of her RELIGIOUS divorce decree by not maintaining a strong religious environment.

Because of course an American citizen should be forced BY A COURT to stay in a religion that does not suit her because her ex says so.

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Very interesting article! I only know what I have seen in videos on Youtube, etc. about Orthodox jews in NY. It is very hard to break away and they make it very difficult on the children. It's time for things to change!

 

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There are a lot of stories like that from the ex-ultra Orthodox. :pb_sad: The Hasidim apparently have a lot of control over the court system in those areas. I can't remember the title now but there's a documentary on Netflix about some people who left those sects and it covers the issue with parents a bit. It's outrageous how they're treated. 

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49 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/25/nyregion/orthodox-jewish-divorce-custody-ny.html

The NYT reports that a Brooklyn judge gave sole custody of three kids to their father after their mother refused to raise them in the tenants ultra orthodoxy. The mom left the cult and is now an out lesbian. The father sued for custody and a Brooklyn judge allowed that the mom was in violation of her RELIGIOUS divorce decree by not maintaining a strong religious environment.

Because of course an American citizen should be forced BY A COURT to stay in a religion that does not suit her because her ex says so.

Well it's not "sharia law" so why should anyone care? /sarcasm

This is absurd. It sounds to me like something that should find its way to the State Supreme Court, to be judged unconstitutional. But I don't know much about US law, so I may be way off in my understanding.

ETA I read the sentence was reversed in appeal. Good.

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1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

I can't remember the title now but there's a documentary on Netflix about some people who left those sects and it covers the issue with parents a bit.

It's "One of Us," they reference it in the article. https://www.netflix.com/title/80118101

I'm glad she got the kids back eventually.

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1 minute ago, Bethella said:

It's "One of Us," they reference it in the article. https://www.netflix.com/title/80118101

I'm glad she got the kids back eventually.

Yep, you beat me to it! I was on my phone when I posted that and was going to edit and read the  article now that I'm on my computer.

I had forgotten that the documentary is from the same people as Jesus Camp.

Here's the trailer:

I remember that Etty talked about how she was asked things like whether she wears stockings still, and that the fact that she didn't was counted against her in determining custody arrangements. It looks like she still hasn't been able to get her kids back.

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Here's the thing. Parties can choose to have their case arbitrated outside the courts. This is actually how shows like Judge Judy work. People show up, sign off saying "I agree that this person or organization will decide my case by these agreed upon standards." Totally legal. And the courts will enforce the agreement. But there are limits, as this case demonstrates. 

If you read the article, this case was overturned, because forcing someone to act religiously is unconstitutional under the first amendment. Generally, you can have a divorce agreement that says "The children will be raised Jewish" but you can't require the mother to be an observant Jew and you can't take away her kids because she's not. 

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The recommended articles at the end of this article list a number of other explorations of these communities. I have a girlfriend who is a VERY observant Jew from California. Her sister married into one of the ultra Orthodox communities in NYC. She basically feels in very deep ways she lost her sister.

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One of us is a good documentary. I thought it covered things pretty well. I saw so many similarities to the fundies of other religions we talk about.

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I’m adding ‘one of us’ to my Netflix queue so I can watch it during an upcoming flight. Thanks for the recommendation. 

This quote really stood out to me from the article:

“We have a strong protection of religious rights in this country, and it’s supposed to be a shield,” Ms. Kay said. “But they are using it as a sword. 

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On 5/25/2018 at 6:20 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

One of us is a good documentary. I thought it covered things pretty well. I saw so many similarities to the fundies of other religions we talk about.

I watched this.  It was really interesting and sad.  Mr. Pook walked into the room and said: "Oh, Fundies again?" The thing is I have an ultra-conservative orthodox Jewish friend from work (or had since we have lost touch since she left) and I learned so much from her.  She spoke very openly and candidly to me about her customs and beliefs and I did in return.  Me, the agnostic, defrauding, smoking and drinking heathen but we are both nurses, mothers, daughters, sisters and wives.  She even told me that there was some sort of clause in her marriage vows whereby her husband had to agree to put her sexual pressure above his own, which I found interesting and yes, surprising.  We had some great times together on breaks and during lunch.  I felt very humbled by her friendship.  The only topic not up for discussion was birth control.  I asked her about it and she quickly told me she was not comfortable discussing the matter.  I miss her dearly and may have even mentioned you guys.  She actually made a very conscious choice to be so devout and to stray from her more mainstream parents and siblings.  They still maintain a close relationship.  I regret that I didn't attend her son's bris at the synagogue because I felt so privileged to be invited but it was held at 9:07 on a Monday work day and I just felt like I was going to be so out of place.  I should have just gone.  Anyways, just some rambling thoughts.

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In theory, these sorts of communities seem quaint and kind of um....ideal?   Close community, faith, take care of each other and children raised without the " troubles" of today's world.  It's never, ever like that however.  Not a one.  They are full of abuse in all forms and stifle individuality.   

I am definitely watching that documentary.  TY.

ETA:  I've been to Brooklyn many times and have seen the Hasidic community.   They never make eye contact with anyone outside, even in passing. No friendly hello's.  They do sneer a bit.  And, they are rich despite how they chose to live.  Many are in the diamond business.  They truly run the community outside national and state laws.  It's pretty creepy.

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1 hour ago, pook said:

I watched this.  It was really interesting and sad.  Mr. Pook walked into the room and said: "Oh, Fundies again?" The thing is I have an ultra-conservative orthodox Jewish friend from work (or had since we have lost touch since she left) and I learned so much from her.  She spoke very openly and candidly to me about her customs and beliefs and I did in return.  Me, the agnostic, defrauding, smoking and drinking heathen but we are both nurses, mothers, daughters, sisters and wives.  She even told me that there was some sort of clause in her marriage vows whereby her husband had to agree to put her sexual pressure above his own, which I found interesting and yes, surprising.  We had some great times together on breaks and during lunch.  I felt very humbled by her friendship.  The only topic not up for discussion was birth control.  I asked her about it and she quickly told me she was not comfortable discussing the matter.  I miss her dearly and may have even mentioned you guys.  She actually made a very conscious choice to be so devout and to stray from her more mainstream parents and siblings.  They still maintain a close relationship.  I regret that I didn't attend her son's bris at the synagogue because I felt so privileged to be invited but it was held at 9:07 on a Monday work day and I just felt like I was going to be so out of place.  I should have just gone.  Anyways, just some rambling thoughts.

I believe ultra Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish people are similar in some ways, but not the same. Now I cannot tell you all the ways they differ, but I do know a lot of the ways of ultra orthodox people because I’m around them all the time. I think Hasidism is a subgroup if ultra Orthodox Judaism. But I’ve never met a Hasidic Jewish person before. So I’m fairly ignorant of how they do things. That’s why the documentary was pretty interesting to me. 

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4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

believe ultra Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish people are similar in some ways, but not the same

That is correct.  There are multiple brands of Orthodox Judaism, and the modern orthodox version is vastly different than the Hasidic version.

 

5 hours ago, pook said:

The thing is I have an ultra-conservative orthodox Jewish friend from work (or had since we have lost touch since she left) and I learned so much from her

The fact that she was your friend from work means that she was almost certainly modern orthodox, and possibly even a very religious and observant conservative Jew.  The lines between reformed, conservative, and Orthodox Judaism are not entirely clear.

Hassidic Judaism has only been around since the 18th century, and a lot of Jews, myself included, think of them as a cult.  Although plenty of them are wealthy, plenty of them are not, and really struggle to support their large families.  They usually don’t use birth control, and educate their sons  far more extensively than they do their daughters, who are expected to marry and have lots of children.  They do still use matchmakers to find spouses for their kids, though I don’t think this is always the case.  I knew some modern orthodox families who were also using matchmakers back in the 80s, so it's not a practice unique to the hassidic community, or at least it wasn’t 30 years ago.

There is a large Jewish population in the eastern city where I grew up (not in NY),  with most major branches represented.  

I knew a very wealthy and non religious Jewish couple with 2 kids who played a little too hard in the cocaine 80s, and were doing some soul searching, when they were essentially courted and recruited by the very charismatic local hassidic rabbi.  He went after them for their money, IMO, there were a whole lot of millions, their business was massive, and they were very generous people even before he got to them.  They became Hassidic, and had 9 more kids.  The parents and the 2 kids they had prior to joining this sect all changed their first names to more traditionally Eastern European Jewish ones, and named the later children similarly.  Their girls aren’t educated beyond high school, though the boys are.  The Jewish schools they attend through 12th grade are actually very good, so at least there’s that.  The mother of the family has a master’s degree, and even though she was born and raised in the same US city where she still lives, now she has a Yiddish accent.  Seeing the transformation of these people was eye opening in the worst way.

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On 5/25/2018 at 5:59 PM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

 

This is absurd. It sounds to me like something that should find its way to the State Supreme Court, to be judged unconstitutional. But I don't know much about US law, so I may be way off in my understanding.

ETA I read the sentence was reversed in appeal. Good.

It did. And the NY Court of Appeals is the highest court in the state (as opposed to the Supreme Court, which in New York is the lowest level court) so the ruling in the reversal is valid statewide. 

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I know a bit about the Hasids (I was raised as "cultural Jew" but no longer identify as Jewish at all). They are obviously an extremist group--I mean, just look at them! It sucks to be a Hasidic woman in the same way it sucks to be a fundie woman--inferior education (there are texts that boys study and not girls), second class citizenship, expected to breed, no birth control. In fact, in many ways, it is worse, because most Hasidic communities I have known have been in large cities, which means these big families live in urban environments. I would much rather be a fundie woman out in the country, where I could send my 10+ kids out to play every day, or to work with their dad. Plus, if I had to have repeated, unsatisfying sex with a religious extremist, I would choose a good looking fundie man over a Hasidic one because. . . come on. Those earlocks and those clothes are just not attractive to me.

There are some differences between the two groups. In a Hasidic sect, the rebbe (head rabbi) functions sort of as a pope. He is considered God's spokesman and his decisions are final. He can be a little dictator, if he so chooses, or a wise leader, but he is THE leader nonetheless. It is a prestigious position, obviously. I've met lots of Jews (Reform through Orthodox) who tell me that they come from a long line of rebbes. My own family says this as well, and so does my husband's! Hubby and I joke that there must have been an awful lot of rebbes, and very few followers, in the old country.

Hasidic families have more religious rules to follow (I think they say there are 600+ commandments in Leviticus), while fundie woman stay on the straight and narrow if they go to church, dress like a pioneer woman, and hit their kids. So it's a bit easier to follow the "rules" they think God wants them to follow.

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10 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I've had this memoir by a former Hasidic Jew on my Amazon list for a while. Has anyone here read it?

 

Haven't read that one, but I do highly recommend Unorthodox, by Deborah Feldman. Leah Vincent's Cut Me Loose is also good, and the memoirs, This is Not a Love Story, by Judy Brown, and Hush, by Eishes Chayil,* are heartbreaking and eye-opening. ETA: There's a lot of information about the insularity of the communities, the ways they avoid secular law, and the restrictive ways women are raised and educated.  I should probably also mention that Hush has to do with covering up child abuse and molestation, and a suicide which results from the sexual abuse, just in case a trigger warning is needed.

I've got two others awaiting me on the bookshelf. One is by a former Hasidic Jew (she'd converted and married in, then left decades later), and another is about the Hasidic community in general: Uncovered, by Leah Lax, and The Rebbe's Army, by Sue Fishkoff, respectively.  Since it's now summer, I may finally have time to read these!

There's also this fascinating article about sex ed for the married orthodox: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/magazine/the-orthodox-sex-guru.html

*Brown and Chayil are one in the same. Hush was written under a pseudonym, but by the time she published her next one, she'd been outed.

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I watched the documentary that was mentioned above and was shocked how absolutely helpless those that leave are against the system, including the court system. The young man Louser (I might be misspelling his name) who was sexually assaulted as a child did not even have anyone who would stand up for him not just after the fact but would not even stop the rape in progress. That’s outrageous! It absolutely fucked-up his life. 

My husband was sexually abused as a child and it took him 31 years to finally disclose. He is a recovering high- functioning alcoholic who suffered deep depression and contemplated killing himself countless times. It’s something he has to live with and work on for the rest of his life. 

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I just got done watching One of Us.  My god.  That woman didn't stand a chance.  She is so strong.  They way they harrassed her.  Took her children. How can secular court do this? Even with high power attorneys?  Evil.  The wrong doer gets backed bt the community. Nice. They really think God would favor them over us with their actions and inactions?  Child rape, no biggie?  Really.  It's sick and twisted.  Like the younger man said " either there is a God and it's an evil entity or there is no God".  Amen, bro.   That Rabbi ( Rebbe?) he was talking to creeped me TF out with his smiling.  Gah!  Feel like I need a shower. 

Interesting when they touched on why the Hasids were formed.  As an answer to the holocaust.   The one lady from Footsteps saying how a bunch of survivors started a community far away and fresh with severe trauma and loss.  I can respect that but why is it ok to abuse each other?  

Something that never made sense to me was the head shaving only to put on a wig that looks like your own hair.  That makes no damn sense.  Putting your own hair under a covering, yes that makes sense to me.  

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I've worked with a couple of modern Orthodox people. They are very nice and seem pretty live and let live about a lot of things. They don't seem to care about working with members of the opposite sex, they are sociable with others outside of their communities, they send their kids to good schools. 

One of my colleagues recently had to divorce her husband because he went of the deep end and became abusive towards her and their children. Her whole community supported her - they helped her find a place to stay because her ex trashed their home and refused to leave. They helped her get a new car after hers broke down. They helped with meals for her and her kids. Her ex ended up being censored for his behavior by the community, both because of the abuse and because he refused to divorce her at first. 

If these modern Orthodox communities can be reasonable about abuse within their ranks and punish the wrong-doers, what is going on with the Hasidim that they can't do the same? Why are they tolerating this crap? If it's all about protecting the community as a whole, wouldn't you want to correct members causing harm to the other members? 

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One more thing, what I meant about the Hasids having money, I meant the heads of the community.   Like, they have hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight that one lady but most of the community accepts welfare in all forms.  They don't need to do that.  They horde the money for stuff like that and other things deem worthy.

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59 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Something that never made sense to me was the head shaving only to put on a wig that looks like your own hair.  That makes no damn sense.  Putting your own hair under a covering, yes that makes sense to me.  

It’s interesting how the headcovering thing has evolved.  Where I grew up, a lot of the very elderly orthodox women wore scarves to cover their hair, and had never worn wigs, but most of the younger orthodox women I knew (I’m talking about the ones I had known before marriage, when they didn’t cover their hair) wore wigs that were far more beautiful than their own hair.  I don’t remember what the religious or traditional reason for married women covering their hair is, but I’m pretty certain it isn’t about making yourself look more attractive to everyone...

I don’t think any of the wig wearing/head covering orthodox women I knew actually shaved their heads, they just covered them.

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19 hours ago, Beermeet said:

ETA:  I've been to Brooklyn many times and have seen the Hasidic community.   They never make eye contact with anyone outside, even in passing. No friendly hello's.  They do sneer a bit.  And, they are rich despite how they chose to live.  Many are in the diamond business.  They truly run the community outside national and state laws.  It's pretty creepy.

 As someone who has lived in Brooklyn a long time, this collection of descriptors is a bit weird to me. No one in NYC really talks to anyone or smiles at people randomly, it's just not a thing we do. If someone does that it probably means they want something or are a tourist/transplant. Most of the Hasids I've interacted with act pretty much like other New Yorkers - except, of course men will often go far far out of their way to avoid women.

Like most communities there are some rich Hasids and some very poor ones. Most aren't what I would consider "rich." Some do work in the diamond business (as many families have very deep roots in the area these are often inherited) but most don't. Some are incredibly poor and mostly live off of support from their community.

You are definitely right they they basically operate outside regular laws. Issues are "taken care of" within the community and there is a crazy level of silencing and intimidation that largely keeps members from going outside.

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