Jump to content
IGNORED

JinJer 39: Waiting to Meet Their Baby Daughter


Jellybean

Recommended Posts

As someone who is both bisexual and a former atheist... coming out as bisexual was much harder. Being openly gay or trans in America means opening yourself up to physical injury or death. The two experiences aren't comparable at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 613
  • Created
  • Last Reply

 

 

I lost a lot of love and support when I came out as gay, I hardly lost any of that when I came out as an atheist. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both gay and atheist: both have been hard and I'm not completely open with my family about either. I think whichever one is harder would depend a lot on the people you're surrounded by.

I don't see my atheism as a choice at all. What is a choice is whether or not to describe myself as an atheist. To some extent that's true about being gay too but I think it would be easier to pretend to yourself you're religious than to pretend to yourself you're straight. It's also a lot easier to keep your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, to yourself, as people tend to be less likely to ask about that than they are to ask about partners or romantic interests. Plus some people are visibly gay and are subject to bigotry from that alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/1/2018 at 10:08 AM, Pecansforeveryone said:

One of 1st questions some atheists get is, "Well then, what stops you from raping and murdering then?" A question that is both extremely painful and insulting.  

That's a stupid and ignorant thing to ask. Sorry anybody has to ever hear such bullshit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's also a disturbing question as it implies that the only thing keeping the person asking from raping and murdering is their religion.

Penn Jillette's answer to that question is that he does rape and murder as much as he wants, and that is zero.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

It's also a disturbing question as it implies that the only thing keeping the person asking from raping and murdering is their religion.

 

Which is ridiculous. Such simplistic idiocy. Logic fail. Sexual abuse is not uncommon in churches. John List, family annihilator, was "religious". If you need religion to stop you from raping and murdering, you are not a decent human being. Besides, if someone is so inclined to rape and murder, religion likely won't stop them anyway. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

It's also a disturbing question as it implies that the only thing keeping the person asking from raping and murdering is their religion.

Penn Jillette's answer to that question is that he does rape and murder as much as he wants, and that is zero.

Yesss. I love this answer and it’s one of my favorite quotes on the topic.

As Secular Humanists, my husband and I have gotten that question from our catholic families before. Particularly in regards to how you can possibly raise kids without religion and we usually use a form of that quote. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It truly disturbs me that there are religious people who actually believe that religion (or belief in a god) is the only thing keeping people from raping and murdering. They're essentially admitting that they'd love to be running around raping and murdering people if it weren't for their belief in God. That's terrifying! Truly one of the most WTF sentiments I've ever come across, and yes, I've seen multiple religious people using this argument!*

*Don't worry, I very much understand that most religious people do not think this way. I used to be religious and I certainly didn't!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of the hostility some atheists "project" are their defense mechanisms being triggered. Hearing questions like that and some evangelicals expressed disdain for atheists when they don't realize they are talking to one. (Of course, some atheists are hostile because they really are jerks.) Just the word atheist can have a "polarizing" and "militant" dynamic to it that agnostic and not religious don't seem to carry. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Raised Very Catholic, but I consider myself an apathist now.  Lifted from Urban Dictionary, though not sure who coined the term: 

Quote

An Apathist believes there is no god or higher power and that all religions are false but at the same time has no need to debate the issues or prove that his / her point of view is uniquely correct. 

I do agree with the previous poster who said that coming out as gay (etc.) must be more difficult . . . AND YET, I do sometimes wonder if a US presidential election were held today between a gay man and an atheist, who would win? I don't know.  People hate the atheists.  It is not information I would ever offer up unless I knew for sure that the other person was cool with it.  I lived in the South for a long time & learned just not to bring it up unless I wanted the conversion proceedings to commence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I absolutely believe the LGBT community is more at risk for violence. There are surveys that show atheists are very distrusted in higher office, alongside Muslims and sometimes below that. I think there is so much default to religious belief setting the foundation for ethics and morals. So lack of 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is kind of mind blowing how serious religion is taken in the US. Ive said before my mother is catholic and father is a JW but I had zero interest or belief in God or religion from a very young age. I believe in science and evolution and I never was able to gel the two. By the time I was a teenager I did not care and Ive never felt that something is missing or I am less of a person for it and no one would really think to question or openly judge me on it. Bar old dad lol. Would be told to fuck off if you did but truly nobody cares here in my world and I couldnt tell you most peoples religious stance nor could they tell you mine, family friends and colleagues alike! Plenty of religious folks here in Oz and a fairly good mix if types accross the board yet it seems somehow unimportant in our culture (which is not our religion) amongst the things we want to know about someone even those we love. So interesting. Any believing aussies on here? Would be so curious to have your take on religion and its importance culturally here in Straya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, HurricaneBells said:

It is kind of mind blowing how serious religion is taken in the US. Ive said before my mother is catholic and father is a JW but I had zero interest or belief in God or religion from a very young age. I believe in science and evolution and I never was able to gel the two. By the time I was a teenager I did not care and Ive never felt that something is missing or I am less of a person for it and no one would really think to question or openly judge me on it. Bar old dad lol. Would be told to fuck off if you did but truly nobody cares here in my world and I couldnt tell you most peoples religious stance nor could they tell you mine, family friends and colleagues alike! Plenty of religious folks here in Oz and a fairly good mix if types accross the board yet it seems somehow unimportant in our culture (which is not our religion) amongst the things we want to know about someone even those we love. So interesting. Any believing aussies on here? Would be so curious to have your take on religion and its importance culturally here in Straya

It can vary a lot by region to be honest. I live in New England* and haven’t had any experiences so far with people asking “Where I go to Church?” or acting like I’m the Devil for not attending one. We have posters who live elsewhere in the states who have had experiences like that though. 

The only times it’s come up is with immediate family. My in-laws and Dad are live and let live people who just want us healthy and happy. My mom does as well, but she’s also been shocked at times over our religious decisions, such as choosing not to baptize our daughter. She never pushes us about that stuff though, so I usually just briefly explain and we all move on with life. 

*New Englanders tend to be viewed as standoffish and rude by others, but we generally just like our personal space and privacy. Not being bugged on a regular basis about religion by strangers is a pretty nice benefit of that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've seen time and again where atheists are called Satanists and devil-worshipers. This is generally done by religious whackadoos who don't even understand what an atheist is. Being told I'm going to hell (which I don't believe in) instead of heaven (which I don't believe in) or that I worship the devil (which I don't believe in) gets old. 

Edit:  I've started saying I'm Druid if anyone asks. It shuts people up and stops the ridiculous assumptions as mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, HurricaneBells said:

It is kind of mind blowing how serious religion is taken in the US. Ive said before my mother is catholic and father is a JW but I had zero interest or belief in God or religion from a very young age. I believe in science and evolution and I never was able to gel the two. By the time I was a teenager I did not care and Ive never felt that something is missing or I am less of a person for it and no one would really think to question or openly judge me on it. Bar old dad lol. Would be told to fuck off if you did but truly nobody cares here in my world and I couldnt tell you most peoples religious stance nor could they tell you mine, family friends and colleagues alike! Plenty of religious folks here in Oz and a fairly good mix if types accross the board yet it seems somehow unimportant in our culture (which is not our religion) amongst the things we want to know about someone even those we love. So interesting. Any believing aussies on here? Would be so curious to have your take on religion and its importance culturallhere in Straya

I'm not religious but am from Australia, I would say that religiousity used to be taken a lot more seriously than it is now (e.g. when my mum was growing up here).  There was a large Catholic vs Protestant divide (presumably a hangover from England).  Catholics used to be blocked out from a number of jobs here which was part of the reason they tended to  be prominent in the Police force as it was an available job.  I think it was NSW where they used to have to alternate between a Protestant and a Catholic for essentially political reasons.

I'm not sure when it changed but I would say generally people don't care if your religious or not.  They may care about your views coming from that religiousity though.  There would also be internal family dynamics as to whether it would be a problem or not if someone was religious and what religion they chose though (e.g. I have some friends who I think would be dissapointed if their children ended up not religious or not being of their faith).  I also know of someone who was homeschooled until Grade 11 and 12 because her parents didn't want her tainted with other religious views and their was no school of that type in the location I was in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I absolutely believe the LGBT community is more at risk for violence. There are surveys that show atheists are very distrusted in higher office, alongside Muslims and sometimes below that. I think there is so much default to religious belief setting the foundation for ethics and morals. So lack of 

So lack of religion=lack of morals and ethics to their mind. Just finishing my thought after my power came back on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

So lack of religion=lack of morals and ethics to their mind. Just finishing my thought after my power came back on. 

I don't buy that for a minute. I believe that within each being is a moral code that instinctively divides right and wrong. I call it a soul. You can call it whatever you like. You can see it with little kids who don't know "right from wrong" but they sure know how to get along, console another little if they're crying, share things. 

I am a Christian. I'm not one of these YEC nutjobs...but I look at an uncaused first cause...the big bang. I also look at the universe. IF I remember all my physics/engineering classes right, it is more common for a system to go from ordered to chaotic rather than chaotic to ordered...to ME that says that there is some sort of sovereign intelligence behind it all. I read a great book that harmonized the Genesis creation accounts with the current scientific thinking about the origins of man. It made a lot of sense to me. I'll have to dig it up eventually (my office is a wreck and my books are in disarray). 

So...anyway...now I'm rambling...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

It can vary a lot by region to be honest. I live in New England* and haven’t had any experiences so far with people asking “Where I go to Church?” or acting like I’m the Devil for not attending one. We have posters who live elsewhere in the states who have had experiences like that though. 

From New England as well (now I live in OG England). I had a few experiences with attempted proselytization (from a neighbor from the South) and kids asking why I didn't go to church or celebrate Christian holidays like they did (understandable, we were little kids, so it wasn't an accusatory thing, just curiosity as to why I/my family was different), but I do think that in the northeast, religion is considered a personal thing. You go to church and do church group stuff, but it's just a thing that you do. You're not weird or an outcast if you don't partake. It's like fishing or knitting; you can do it on your own, or as part of a community/group, some people are waaaaayyyyy more into it than others, but if it's not your thing, no big whoop. In other parts of the US, I don't think it's really like that. Honestly, I still feel taken aback when I meet people who believe it's their calling/mission/obligation to convince other people to convert to their religion, because of the cultural double-whammy of being part of a religion that is for the most part pretty anti-proselytizing (and has a history of forced/coerced conversion to Christianity), and being from a region where your religion is personal and not that big of a deal. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/1/2018 at 6:37 AM, jqlgoblue said:

However it does seem to me a fair number of Catholics think this way, though it is probably not the majority.

This is my experience also, (among western catholics, living in secular countries)

Maybe the Protestants are right about us :P.

I am  very agnostic. There may be a god. There may not be. I sure as hell don't know! 

Humans seem wired to seek a deeper meaning beyond our life here on earth. We look for stories, we want there to be a coherent narrative which explains our existence. That might be the immortal soul calling out to god, or it may solely be a consequence of our biological and psychological evolution and a complete fluke. 

The thing I always ask religious people, if I know them well enough, is "how can you be so sure that there is something rather than nothing, and what pushed you off the fence?" 

On 6/1/2018 at 12:08 PM, PainfullyAware said:

Personally I believe that each religion reveals a different mask of the same divine presence.

If I were to believe, it would be a version of this

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

From New England as well (now I live in OG England). I had a few experiences with attempted proselytization (from a neighbor from the South) and kids asking why I didn't go to church or celebrate Christian holidays like they did (understandable, we were little kids, so it wasn't an accusatory thing, just curiosity as to why I/my family was different), but I do think that in the northeast, religion is considered a personal thing. You go to church and do church group stuff, but it's just a thing that you do. You're not weird or an outcast if you don't partake. It's like fishing or knitting; you can do it on your own, or as part of a community/group, some people are waaaaayyyyy more into it than others, but if it's not your thing, no big whoop. In other parts of the US, I don't think it's really like that. Honestly, I still feel taken aback when I meet people who believe it's their calling/mission/obligation to convince other people to convert to their religion, because of the cultural double-whammy of being part of a religion that is for the most part pretty anti-proselytizing (and has a history of forced/coerced conversion to Christianity), and being from a region where your religion is personal and not that big of a deal. 

Yes! That’s a great way of explaining it. People here may be curious at times, but most of us seem content to just live and let live when it comes to religion.

Red Sox versus Yankees is another story entirely though. Same with not liking Dunkin. I’m pretty sure you get kicked out of New England for not liking Dunkin - just like that South Park episode where Stan gets kicked out of town for not voting in the school mascot election. :pb_lol:

ETA: Applicable South Park reference.

Spoiler

BE821170-4C22-42FD-8ECD-8DD5B5930935.gif.f64701d0e33aa857ac292cf002e7455d.gif

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Alicja said:

As someone who is both bisexual and a former atheist... coming out as bisexual was much harder. Being openly gay or trans in America means opening yourself up to physical injury or death. The two experiences aren't comparable at all.

I'm also bi, and I'm out to only three people. Coming out as LGBT is hard, even now when society is more progressive.

I don't know about you, but I feel like being bi adds it's own level of complications. A lot of people think we don't exist which is baffling to me. I'm married to a man, so sometimes I feel like there's no point telling anyone because they won't get it, they'll think I just want attention or that I went through a phase when I was younger but am "straight" now.

So yeah, I don't know what it's like for atheists to "come out" but the idea of coming out myself scares the shit out of me. For whatever that's worth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m from a weirdly non-Jewish part of New Jersey and was one of very few Jewish kids in my town. The synagogue I had gone to Hebrew school and was Bat Mitzvah’d at was kind of far away, so getting involved there was difficult. I actually went to a church youth group for a little bit because all my friends went and it was not Jesus-y at all. I also went to a retreat a few times with a local Catholic Church. Any time Jesus came up (which actually wasn’t super frequently - the retreats were mostly about friendship, kindness, and compassion), I would politely say that I wasn’t actually Catholic or Christian. That was usually met with, “okay cool, so want to go get some ice cream?” 

Religion was never a hot issue where I grew up, which I appreciate. I was often able to share about my religion to people who didn’t know much about it (when asked of course!) and was able to learn about theirs as well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm so glad that Josh's religious and moral upbringing stopped him from molesting his sisters. *sarcasm*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How our fundies shut off all critical thought for forever is beyond me. I know having other people do your thinking for you can seem comforting and easier in the short term. However, there is a limit to everything. In the long term, doing your own thinking can be incredibly fulfilling, even if a little nerve wracking. You fundies have large families, don't drink or smoke, dress modestly, and have large families, and love God and Jesus? Guess who else does? Mormons! You are not special. Repeat. You are not special. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay...real question for you guys...not trying to be disrespectful or ignorant in any way. I’ve just never thought about this in this way...

if you think it is NOT a choice to be an atheist, does that mean non-atheists also don’t have a choice? I’ve always considered my own belief in God to be a choice that I could choose to change at any time. I’m always evaluating various types of “evidence” and asking myself how this changes (or doesn’t change) my relationship with or perception of God (and my perceptions have changed many times over the years...so I imagine it is always possible that my ultimate belief in him also could change). I know I didn’t choose my sexuality, and my LGBTQ friends didn’t choose theirs...somehow the idea of choosing atheism or religion (or any shade in between) seems to make more sense to me. I mean, I actively choose which “micro-beliefs” to practice within my faith. I believe most Fundies have actively chosen Fundie-dom (unless they were children raised in it and fully brainwashed/not able to make their own choices), and have the choice to stop believing. 

Anyway...I hope you know I am asking respectfully! And totally curious about others thoughts on this. I’ve never thought about it before! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Coconut Flan locked this topic

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.