How do fundies afford it?

[hoipolloi]

1 minute ago, Bethella said:

I assume that this is going to happen at the TTH eventually and that Joe and Kendra will get the lot where their log house is located.

Most likely. Depending on the jurisdiction, this ranges from a cheap & easy process to an expensive & time-consuming ordeal.

[feministxtian]

My mom sold me her house for a dollar after my dad died. She paid it off with the insurance money and then sold it to me. It made it easier when she had to move in with us and I had to sell the house. I didn't need a PoA or anything like that. 

It's not a big deal at all...See, if you buy the house for a dollar it's not the same as being given the house. Something about gift taxes and stuff like that. 

[refugee]

On 5/18/2018 at 5:26 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

See I can understand that. Fixers can be really cheap and if you do most of the work yourself, it’s going to cost a lot less. However you then get into shoddy craftsmanship and low quality materials if they aren’t skilled enough to do a good job. So that’s a real negative. I’m just amazed at the fundies who seem to always have money to throw around. 

The fundies we knew who had money to throw around were the vocal ones. Poster children for the church. See? If you just followed god’s commands, you, too could have child after child and god would take care of your needs. 

Some were professionals in high-paying careers; more than one was a charismatic salesperson.

The ones who kept their heads down, who were quiet and stayed in the background, were the ones who were trying to make ends meet who weren’t doctors, lawyers, engineers,  highly successful salesmen, or CPAs. Their wives quietly did what they could, like daycare, hiding the reason for any extra income from the church because of the stigma against working women and the shaming of men who could not support a family on what they made from one, or two, or three jobs.

Talk about tying heavy burdens on people’s backs.

[Letgo]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:11 AM, Rowan said:

This is one of the MANY reasons I love (one of) my senators. He has refused the government healthcare until every citizen has the option/ability to obtain the same quality of care at similar prices. His coverage is through his wife's job, so they probably pay even more since he has other access to coverage. 

Unfortunately the other senators (and everyone else in government) can't be bothered to follow his lead. And the reasons why should tell them a LOT about what their constituents have to deal with - but they don't care. We really need to put limits on campaign contributions. When these representatives' pockets are being filled by the insurance companies, NRA, everyone else - it's clear where their loyalties are. /political rant. 

More on topic, I have no idea how these families do it. My husband and I both have good jobs and are relatively healthy. No kids yet (and haven't gotten to the higher-cost fertility treatments point yet) and last night it was abundantly clear that our A/C isn't working. We knew it was a matter of time, it was 26 years old when we bought the house last year. But I'm still low-level panicking about the cost because there is a lot of other stuff we haven't done yet that also needs done. Windows are going to be next year and ouch that is going to hurt. Do these families just ignore the regular maintenance on their houses until they are falling apart? Do they rely on begging for stuff like if the heater goes out after not taking care of any of it? Houses are expensive, and having too many kids shoved into one doesn't help things stay in working order!

Wow. What state is it? Government health care, their retirement, trips, their other perks...drives me nuts. THEY don't have Social Security! Not good enough for them. We should all run for office. I want to be a retired Senator.

Healthcare is huge. I know several people who have had babies within the past couple of years and their total expenses for prenatal care and childbirth run from $200 to way over a million for a premie. There is no logic to the costs associated with the same event-months in the NICU excepted. I don't know how families do it ether. I think a lot of them try and use midwives of the Jill variety, and do home births. But Jill, Jessa, and Joy have all ended up being hospitalized with their births. Who pays for that? And what do Jessa and Ben do for a living? These couples all have the usual expenses on top of the hospital bills. How do they make it? The wives don't work, they rarely have a degree, they are usually self employed, HOW do they do it?

I think some of them do have to ignore maintenance on their homes. We've seen "homes" that should be total tear downs. I also know of families who have help from wealthier older family members who can't stand seeing the children live on what the parents can afford. Grandparents gift cars, school tuition, clothing, pay the utility bills, help with buying homes. But still, some of these people have such nice things at such young ages. The first house we bought after we got married HAS been torn down! But it was what we could afford at the time and it was ours.

[Anonymousguest]

I know a family with 6 kids who live in a single wide trailer. Dad works for himself, and really has no room to advance in anyway other than to raise his rates. He works a lot of hours, and takes their one car with him, which means mom is home all day with the kids with no way to do anything. Her mom drives her to appointments and grocery shopping once a week. They do at least use the state health/Medicaid insurance, though I know they have gotten flack about it from people in the church. She has occasionally taken advantage of free swimming lessons for low income kids, but other than that they don't do anything. 

One thing that I heard all the time when mine were young is that kids really aren't that expensive. And I'll agree that this is true when they are very young. It's easy to find cheap clothes, nursing a baby cost nothing, you can use cloth diapers for several kids with very little outlay. 

But once they get older the costs add up. Their clothes are more expensive, you need a bigger house, it's expensive to go on vacation, to pay for car insurance, health insurance, braces Sports and music lessons at up quickly. Supplemental classes etc. But you'll just find that those who can't afford it just live without it. They stay in their tiny houses, don't do lessons or supplements classes, don't take vacations etc. 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Kids are kind of a wide range of “expensive.” A huge part is where you live. A child will cost way more in DC than in nowhereville Midwest USA. I am sure the way fundies do things, they spend very little per child compared to your average family of 2 or 3 kids. That’s the thing about having 15 kids. You are splitting your budget 15 ways while your average family is splitting their budget just 3 ways. It’s just logical sense that these giant fundie families with one earner will make their children do without many things that we think are typical. Like an extra curricular activity. And these people are actually choosing to do this to their children. It’s sad.

[Audrey2]

I'm sure, in some of the unknown families, they have as much garden as possible, from which they eat all summer and can/freeze produce for winter. Groceries are mainly things you can't trade for- flour, sugar, salt, rice, beans, and possibly breakfast cereal and pasta. Meat you either trade for, get a hog or side of beef, save for it, eat your chickens who stop laying, or fish. Meat is not . necessarily an every day food. You buy your groceries from the least expensive grocery in town, like Aldi, and you only get a national brand if it is on sale cheaper than the store brand.

Not only do children not have their own rooms, oftentimes they don't have their own bed. If you are home schooling, your children just need two pairs of pants or skirts, bought used and handed down (or passed down from other families), three shirts, and a sweater or sweatshirt, plus a good outfit. You probably don't take a vacation, but if you do it's a driving trip to visit relatives. You don't eat out; instead going away is your treat and you pack your own food. As a poster said above, you have one car, which is an old used beater that you run until it is completely unfixable, and the kids aren't involved with any activities, unless you are involved in a church or have free concerts or hiking nearby. You may use the library as well, depending on what flavor of Fundy you are.

It is a very hard life style that these folks choose. But they are so committed to their religious beliefs that, to them, they feel it's worth the sacrifices they make.

[Rowan]

7 hours ago, Letgo said:

Wow. What state is it? Government health care, their retirement, trips, their other perks...drives me nuts. THEY don't have Social Security! Not good enough for them. We should all run for office. I want to be a retired Senator.

I'm in Ohio. He's such a threat to the current administration that 45 has already spent a lot to try to defeat him this fall. 

[refugee]

6 hours ago, Audrey2 said:

I'm sure, in some of the unknown families, they have as much garden as possible, from which they eat all summer and can/freeze produce for winter. Groceries are mainly things you can't trade for- flour, sugar, salt, rice, beans, and possibly breakfast cereal and pasta. Meat you either trade for, get a hog or side of beef, save for it, eat your chickens who stop laying, or fish. Meat is not . necessarily an every day food. You buy your groceries from the least expensive grocery in town, like Aldi, and you only get a national brand if it is on sale cheaper than the store brand.

You just reminded me, in our area, some Christians started a couple of gleaning organizations for people who qualified for food stamps but didn’t want to take government aid. They rented a warehouse and worked out deals with stores and farmers markets to pick up aging produce, day-old bread, dented or unlabeled cans, still-good dairy, and just-past-their-date staples. For a low monthly fee and a few volunteer hours, you could pick up lots of cereal, bread, pasta, and rice, and a certain amount of canned and fresh food and produce. It was a huge help. The stores threw away less food, and maybe they got a tax write off for the donations.

[morfydd]

21 hours ago, Letgo said:

Wow. What state is it? Government health care, their retirement, trips, their other perks...drives me nuts. THEY don't have Social Security! Not good enough for them. We should all run for office. I want to be a retired Senator.

Senators's health insurance is through the Affordable Care Act:  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/members-congress-health-care/

They get subsidies for their insurance, like the employer's portion of employee insurance, and they have some other super-exclusive options (like military care, and an on-call doctor, as explained above) but otherwise they use Obamacare.  Republicans inserted this requirement in what they thought would be a poison pill but was eagerly adopted:

Quote

But some Republicans pushed the idea that if the exchanges were good enough for other Americans, they should be good enough for Congress. So, an amendment by Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa was added to the Senate bill requiring that the federal government offer only health plans that were part of an exchange to members of Congress and their staffs. The law’s final language on this, written by Sen. Tom Coburn, says that: “the only health plans that the Federal Government may make available to Members of Congress and congressional staff with respect to their service as a Member of Congress or congressional staff shall be health plans that are — (I) created under this Act (or an amendment made by this Act); or (II) offered through an Exchange established under this Act.”

from https://www.factcheck.org/2013/05/congress-and-an-exemption-from-obamacare/

On the whole, they're federal employees.  They don't need to be rolling in it, but I'd prefer they're well-enough compensated to concentrate on their work - see what happens in state legislatures where they're not:

https://www.npr.org/2017/01/09/508237086/low-pay-in-state-legislatures-means-some-cant-afford-the-job

[Palimpsest]

10 hours ago, refugee said:

You just reminded me, in our area, some Christians started a couple of gleaning organizations for people who qualified for food stamps but didn’t want to take government aid. They rented a warehouse and worked out deals with stores and farmers markets to pick up aging produce, day-old bread, dented or unlabeled cans, still-good dairy, and just-past-their-date staples. For a low monthly fee and a few volunteer hours, you could pick up lots of cereal, bread, pasta, and rice, and a certain amount of canned and fresh food and produce. It was a huge help. The stores threw away less food, and maybe they got a tax write off for the donations.

This sounds like a Food Pantry but run as a co-op.  Do they only serve fellow Christians and only allow the right sort of Christian to join?

We have a Food Pantry that serves several towns, some affluent and some not so much.  It is not just a Christian thing and I'd take a very dim view of a "Christian" group trying to siphon off their supplies.

Our Food Pantry has no income requirements and no religious affiliation requirement. Only proof of residence (a utility bill or something similar) is required. 

Also no proof of refusing govt. funding is required (not like it is that generous.)  In fact the trained volunteers help people to apply for govt. help if they want.  Clients can pick up food 2 X  a month with an "open shelf" policy.  They do limit how much food can be given out by family size, and it is capped at $500 worth of food per month for the largest families.

It serves seniors as well as families with children.  This used to be a rural and agricultural area but lots of commuters have moved in.  Some seniors are in danger of being forced out of the newly "affluent" towns where they have lived their whole lives due to skyrocketing property taxes.

Food Pantries are a good thing. 

 

[EmiGirl]

One thing I found out was that the students at our local university were being penalized for using food pantries. Somehow it counted toward income and therefore affected (effected? I always screw those two up.) their financial aid. So an astounding number of the students were food insecure. So the university set up it's own pantry that somehow wouldn't. My church heavily supports it. 

[Anonymousguest]

@Palimpsest we have a local food bank here that is similar, we volunteer there occasionally. They have to follow federal regulations though, so they are somewhat limited about what they can accept as domains and what they can give out. They can't give out any expired good, for instance. I find it extremely frustrating to have to throw out expired pasta and cereal. Church food pantries on the other hand can take day old bread and nearly expired or newly expired food from grocery stores. One of my kids took a class at a church that collected bakery items from a local place. Even though neither the instructor of the class, nor the students were associated with the church, they always encouraged us to take something. 

Also where we are the grocery stores cannot donate food to people, but people/organizations can ask for it. It's a strange arrangement. One grocery whole foods type store gives out produce "for animal consumption only" but I know one friends of mine who picks it up usually can salvage quite a lot for her family to eat, and only feeds her chickens what is too far gone. 

[Briefly]

6 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

One thing I found out was that the students at our local university were being penalized for using food pantries. Somehow it counted toward income and therefore affected (effected? I always screw those two up.) their financial aid. So an astounding number of the students were food insecure. So the university set up it's own pantry that somehow wouldn't. My church heavily supports it. 

That does not make any sense to me, that receiving food from a food pantry would be considered as income.  Would they rather that people starve?  I'm glad that the university saw what was happening and took steps to help the students.

[refugee]

11 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

This sounds like a Food Pantry but run as a co-op.  Do they only serve fellow Christians and only allow the right sort of Christian to join?

We have a Food Pantry that serves several towns, some affluent and some not so much.  It is not just a Christian thing and I'd take a very dim view of a "Christian" group trying to siphon off their supplies.

Our Food Pantry has no income requirements and no religious affiliation requirement. Only proof of residence (a utility bill or something similar) is required. 

Also no proof of refusing govt. funding is required (not like it is that generous.)  In fact the trained volunteers help people to apply for govt. help if they want.  Clients can pick up food 2 X  a month with an "open shelf" policy.  They do limit how much food can be given out by family size, and it is capped at $500 worth of food per month for the largest families.

It serves seniors as well as families with children.  This used to be a rural and agricultural area but lots of commuters have moved in.  Some seniors are in danger of being forced out of the newly "affluent" towns where they have lived their whole lives due to skyrocketing property taxes.

Food Pantries are a good thing. 

 

I honestly don’t remember about constraints. It was over 20 years ago, and we were struggling financially, and we were deep in the koolade. In those days, I would take my kids to the park for the free lunches in the summertime, and watch them eat, because kids ate free but adults had to pay. And felt guilty because our church told us it was wrong to take government handouts. The gleaners organization was a godsend in that sense. There were a lot of people in the faith community who would not take WIC or food stamps or go to food banks because they blindly followed not-going-hungry false teachers. Yeah, we were blind and stupid. But that’s what brainwashing does.

And yes, food pantries are indeed a good thing. I donate on a regular basis. Good stuff, too, that I would have appreciated in the days when we were eating what other people didn’t want. (I recommend it. Give to the food bank the same stuff your family enjoys eating. It might make someone’s day.)

[refugee]

11 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

One thing I found out was that the students at our local university were being penalized for using food pantries. Somehow it counted toward income and therefore affected (effected? I always screw those two up.) their financial aid. So an astounding number of the students were food insecure. So the university set up it's own pantry that somehow wouldn't. My church heavily supports it. 

A local university has a food pantry for students. I was so glad to find it out as I remember living on ramen decades ago... and living costs, tuition and books are so much more expensive now.

[feministxtian]

There's a food bank here that we've hit up a couple of times. The cool part of it is that if you're a Vet or Vet spouse, you get to go to the front of the line and they load you up bigtime. When we were really struggling it was a godsend. Between that and the church that gave away bread, fruit and fresh veggies, we made it through that time.

I have some issues around food after going through serious food insecurity a few times as an adult. I can't relax about food unless my pantry is full and so is my freezer. Its not like I'll over eat, I barely eat twice a day...but in my fucked up mind I'm saving the food for my husband (it was my children back in the day). 

I really need a good therapist, don't I? 

[EmiGirl]

12 hours ago, Briefly said:

That does not make any sense to me, that receiving food from a food pantry would be considered as income.  Would they rather that people starve?  I'm glad that the university saw what was happening and took steps to help the students.

I'm glad they did too.  Then they made my church aware of it and we're trying to give as much money (they prefer money rather than donations because they can get what they truly need and have resources to get it cheap) and raise awareness as we can. I was astounded because it doesn't make any sense to me either and I was absolutely appalled.

[Briefly]

17 hours ago, refugee said:

I honestly don’t remember about constraints. It was over 20 years ago, and we were struggling financially, and we were deep in the koolade. In those days, I would take my kids to the park for the free lunches in the summertime, and watch them eat, because kids ate free but adults had to pay. And felt guilty because our church told us it was wrong to take government handouts. The gleaners organization was a godsend in that sense. There were a lot of people in the faith community who would not take WIC or food stamps or go to food banks because they blindly followed not-going-hungry false teachers. Yeah, we were blind and stupid. But that’s what brainwashing does.

And yes, food pantries are indeed a good thing. I donate on a regular basis. Good stuff, too, that I would have appreciated in the days when we were eating what other people didn’t want. (I recommend it. Give to the food bank the same stuff your family enjoys eating. It might make someone’s day.)

We aren't really in a position to donate much at the moment, but there local food pantries are the first thing we donate to and that includes the local Meals on Wheels.

[Lisafer]

On 5/26/2018 at 12:27 AM, refugee said:

And yes, food pantries are indeed a good thing. I donate on a regular basis. Good stuff, too, that I would have appreciated in the days when we were eating what other people didn’t want. (I recommend it. Give to the food bank the same stuff your family enjoys eating. It might make someone’s day.)

Thanks for saying this! When I've had to use food pantries, a lot of times it was food that was literally unsold/damaged stock of things that most people wouldn't want to eat. So when I had opportunities to donate to the local food pantry, I asked what they needed most. Peanut butter is a big one. Also canned meat like tuna and chicken. And, to my surprise and amusement, people actually want ramen noodles and spaghettio's. They're a popular item! I think spaghettio's are of Satan, personally.  

Of course, where I live a lot of people that use the food pantry have nothing but a microwave and a tiny refrigerator (long-term motel living), so food that requires minimal prep is the most important to them. I assume it's probably like that in a lot of places. 

[Audrey2]

4 hours ago, Lisafer said:

Of course, where I live a lot of people that use the food pantry have nothing but a microwave and a tiny refrigerator (long-term motel living), so food that requires minimal prep is the most important to them. I assume it's probably like that in a lot of places. 

This is something that really bothers me when they say either only let food stamps buy rice/beans/vegetables, cooking from scratch items, or just provide items such as these for commodities. It assumes that everyone who needs food help has access to a full kitchen, with a working stovetop and oven, as well as refrigerator space and cabinet space. Many who have financial diffuculites and or the many of the working poor don't live in homes/apartments where all of these things work. Others live in camping trailers, where money for propane to use for cooking doesn't last all month.

[Lisafer]

2 minutes ago, Audrey2 said:

This is something that really bothers me when they say either only let food stamps buy rice/beans/vegetables, cooking from scratch items, or just provide items such as these for commodities. It assumes that everyone who needs food help has access to a full kitchen, with a working stovetop and oven, as well as refrigerator space and cabinet space. Many who have financial diffuculites and or the many of the working poor don't live in homes/apartments where all of these things work. Others live in camping trailers, where money for propane to use for cooking doesn't last all month.

Yes!!! The blaming and shaming of people in poverty for their food choices is horrifying here in the U.S. (and probably elsewhere). So many people don't have a place to store fresh food or anything to cook it with. 

WIC for pregnant women doesn't work well in my experience, and it's based on allowing certain amounts/kinds of food. People tend to end up with too much of one thing (gallons of skim millk, dozens of cans of baby food) and not enough of other things (formula, fruit, cereal). Plus, using the coupons is an enormous hassle that draws all eyes when you're in the checkout line, as opposed to swiping an EBT card. I certainly can't see food stamps working well if they were limited further than they are now.

[Cleopatra7]

I’ve been working with my local chapter of Food Not Bombs for the past year or so:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_Not_Bombs

The idea is to give free vegan/vegetarian food cooked from scratch to anyone who wants it, whether they are rich, poor, homeless, or have a dwelling. We run on a cash only shoestring budget since we’re not a charity by design. The food we use to cook from usually originates from stores and restaurants who would otherwise throw them away. This is done to demonstrate that food insecurity is a matter of artificial scarcity not a lack of food as such. I have never seen anyone who strikes me as “fundie” during our meals, but I currently live in a very secular city. However, just like so many fundies refuse food stamps out of principle, I could see them also refusing a Food Not Bombs meal because it’s been fixed by “hippies” and “commies.” 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

However, just like so many fundies refuse food stamps out of principle, I could see them also refusing a Food Not Bombs meal because it’s been fixed by “hippies” and “commies.” 

Well, many of the organization's members have been pretty outspoken communists, so I don't think it's a total Fox News knee jerk reaction to call them "commies." (Though, if my kids were hungry, I suppose I'd take safe food wherever I could get it.)

BTW, do you find that there is still a strong anti-nuclear power sentiment within the group?

[Cleopatra7]

1 minute ago, nausicaa said:

Well, many of the organization's members have been pretty outspoken communists, so I don't think it's a total Fox News knee jerk reaction to call them "commies." (Though, if my kids were hungry, I suppose I'd take safe food wherever I could get it.)

BTW, do you find that there is still a strong anti-nuclear power sentiment within the group?

Food Not Bombs arose out of the anarchist subculture (the real left- wing kind, not the gross “anarcho-capitalism” that people like Conner Boyack advocate), so it attracts people who are attracted to the idea of giving stuff away for free. Being called “commie” would only be offensive in the sense that we wouldn’t like being lumped in with authoritarian apologists. I’m not sure about anti-nuke sentiments in my group, since that particular movement seems to have peaked in the 1980s. There is a consensus about anti-militarism and anti prison industrial complex, though.