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How do fundies afford it?


JermajestyDuggar

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2 hours ago, polecat said:

Disclaimer: I don't know these people and cannot speak for them. Nor am I assuming that the pictured people are like this.

But having grown up fundy, this is something I can answer to a degree re: a lot of fundies who have half-ass jobs with a much-nicer quality of life than would be typical for one with that type of job.

Those who work for themselves trade on their being "Christian," by which I mean, they advertise themselves as being Christian businesses and make it a huge talking point, as if by being Christian they're more honest than secular businesses. In truth, they often cut corners, cheat clients and worse. Not all of them, by any means. Some are likely honest people. But many are not, ime.

Second, they frequently cheat on their taxes. Not overtly, but by underreporting their income, working "under the table," paying people "off the books," or similar shenanigans. This keeps their overall expenses lower. (But as someone who is also self-employed, I can promise them that it WILL come back to bite them in the ass when they have little or nothing to collect for social security.)

Third, they have gotten scrimping and saving down to an art form. And this often includes taking every handout available. They know where every area food bank is, which resale shops have the best deals (and when their sales are), they know how to get extra discounts and specials, and they know how to get blood out of a turnip. And never discount the power of complaint: It's amazing how many freebies you get when you're the squeaky wheel.

Finally, they know how to hit other people up for money when they need/want it. Wednesday night prayer meeting is more than just another church service. It's a great way to grift. "Pray for us. Our van has a broken thermonuclear regulator gasket. We need $5 gazillion to fix it. Pray that Jaysus comes through for us!" And then lo and behold, some poor sucker will sure enough either hand them an envelope full of money or the keys to a new/used vehicle. Golly gee, isn't it amazing how Jaysus works?!?!

(There might be more I'm not thinking of just now, but these are just off the top of my head.)

Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. And sounds exactly like Jill Rod.

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18 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. And sounds exactly like Jill Rod.

I work in retail, and can confirm. We often give difficult customers discounts and other freebies (rewards points, etc.) just to get them to leave and stop holding up the line/making a scene.

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3 hours ago, polecat said:

Third, they have gotten scrimping and saving down to an art form. And this often includes taking every handout available. They know where every area food bank is, which resale shops have the best deals (and when their sales are), they know how to get extra discounts and specials, and they know how to get blood out of a turnip. And never discount the power of complaint: It's amazing how many freebies you get when you're the squeaky wheel.

 

The Bates family seemed to be like this.  They were also going around for handouts and they were always happy when people would give them clothing donations. They went to some free health clinic that was mentioned in their Primetime special. Gil said that they refuse to take government assistance because they didn't want to be a burden on others.  But, Gil and his family were still depending heavily on private charities. In a way they weren't any better than people on government assistance.

There is a family with 7 kids that attends that the same Catholic parish as my parents. The family has been to known to hit up various local charities, food pantries, and other places for handouts. The wife would also show up to parish council meetings to tell people that her family was looking for clothing donations.

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14 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

This is how they do it:  

1.  Little or know medical insurance.

2.  Jill R. (I guarantee) gets food stamps. With all the kids they would qualify for state sponsored healthcare for kids and she would be covered during her pregnancy.

3.  They live is crappy place with crappy schools since they “Home school”.  

4.  They drive okay cars.

5.  They pay for NO activities for their kids.

6. Once the kids can make money it all goes in the family till (Ardnt team ripoff).

7.  When Steve left Boeing he moved his 401(k) money in an IRA and let it grow for the past 20 years.

8.  Some like Paines had money stashed before embarking on their religious kick.

9. Some like Anderson feel Mom & Dad vacations (f-trips) are paramount and fund them before they find anything else.  We also know Zsu goes to soup kitchens to get produce.  

10.  The list goes on and on.  The bottom line is that we all pay for their religious adventures.  It makes me ill to think about it.  

I bolded #3 because I agree, this makes a huge difference. In looking for places to live in my area (a spread out metro area with dozens of zip codes) you can find homes or apartments for 1/3, 1/4, or even less than the price of the area I’m in if the corresponding schools have poor ratings. IME the areas where this happens, crime is also much higher (which is the main reason I steer clear of them). Online, the photos of these houses can look just as nice, but because of the location they have a significant price difference. Living in a seedy area to avoid the debt of a house at the median price is something I doubt they bat an eyelid at. 

Church networking can get you very far as well. It’s amazing what “we LOVE the Lord so we got married to avoid sinning” can do to open the wallets of church members. You can get some money for a down payment on a house, be lead to someone with some extra land they’ll let go for cheap, have volunteers of church plumbers/roofers/electricians/etc. to help you with your project.

I think the recent Duggar and Bates marriages have slightly skewed the idea of what most fundie weddings and honeymoons consist of. Most have very bare bones ceremonies that employ the help of a lot of church members and no exotic locations for their honeymoon. Any money they get as gifts likely goes to their down payment on their house. I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with that either, I just don’t think that couples like these have it all. For every impressive thing they seem to have accomplished financially, there is most likely something non-fundies consider normal to have that these people live without. 

I think the appearance that they are holy, blessed, and happy often hides significant financial stress, lack of savings, LOTS of grifting, and being unable to indulge ever. 

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Fixer uppers are hard to get fixed up when you have to work all the time in order to pay the mortgage. Having ZERO jobs (and no mortgage) helps by freeing up a great deal of time to "fix up". All those extra hands also help.

Fairy tale lives.

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If you declare yourself a pastor, and you homechurch  - then your house is a church and thus you are eligible for all sorts of tax deductions. Jim Boob Duggar and the Westboro Baptists have been doing this for years.  I strongly suspect Stevehovah Maxwell does it too.

I totally agree with @polecat that a lot of "Christian" businesses are really not Christian at all.  They charge more, the work/ materials are shoddy, they insist on being paid only in cash, usually half up front and they aren't reliable.  They either take forever to finish a job because they keep disappearing and then return to do some work -- which is substandard when finally finished -- or else they never finish at all.

You cannot complain about them or seek to recover you money because .. well... they are "Christians"  If you try you'll hear --"How dare you say those mean untrue things about X.  He's such a fine,  upstanding, godly Christian.  Why he's a part time pastor. Got a homechurch.  He would never do what you're saying.  You need to stop lying about him."

And yes I think no matter how much these fundies complain and scorn government "handouts", they are signed up for everything.  The more they can get free from the gov and the less taxes they have to pay, then they can justify all the free stuff as bleeding the beast. 

Edited to add:  Lori Alexander has even said if  you have to go on welfare to be a SAHM you should.

This X 1000:

48 minutes ago, Joyfully_Unavailable said:

I think the appearance that they are holy, blessed, and happy often hides significant financial stress, lack of savings, LOTS of grifting, and being unable to indulge ever. 

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24 minutes ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

If you declare yourself a pastor, and you homechurch  - then your house is a church and thus you are eligible for all sorts of tax deductions. Jim Boob Duggar and the Westboro Baptists have been doing this for years.  I strongly suspect Stevehovah Maxwell does it too.

This has been debunked several times, particularly in the case of Jim Bob Duggar. 

While the IRS is somewhat loose on what constitutes a church, there are still several key elements an organization must meet to be labeled a church. Steve Anderson and Westboro qualify, but I doubt the Duggars or Maxwells ever would. Neither family currently claims, or it appears has ever claimed, tax exempt status. This information is publicly available and searchable on the IRS website. 

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Do you remember when Alan Smith (May he rot in prison forever and ever) was arrested, Michael Morton set up Go Fund Me for Katie and the children asking for 5k for her and her children’s needs. This showed how absolutely dire their financial situation was. They had no savings and I presume none of the multitude of siblings could front 5K for her support.

Also when Bradricks divorced, in the court papers there was a breakdown of the family’s assets. It showed their family of 8 was living hand to mouth. 

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1 hour ago, lilwriter85 said:

Didn't claim that Zsu that PP refuses to take tax breaks for the strip mall church?

I haven't read every PP thread but I doubt that is true. He seems like the type to take any break offered to him -either it's owed to him and seen a reward for being a good christian or if taking help from the government -seen as a way of " getting back " at the liberals.  Sticking it to the man. :kitty-shifty:

"Why should liberal, godless families get help while godly families struggle? " I bet this is what PP really thinks. 

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Great thread - I always wonder about this. Especially as they all seem to take trips and dine out constantly. 

I'm most curious about Sierra (Duggar hanger-on/former flamingo painting BFF). 

She's 28, has 6 kids and shows no signs of stopping. Her husband works and she stays home. They also took in a family of 3/4 from Houston after the hurricane last year. 

There is no way that she made any decent amount from her random Duggar show appearances or from her glass-sprinkled cupcake and strawberry "business" to be living comfortably. 

I'd also be interested to see Jessa/Jill/Jinger's finances compared side by side since getting married. 

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I guess we should never discount  the power of "love offerings". I had a friend who didn't work for years. I never understood how she lived so well, until I realized how much people in the church were doing for her. In her defense, she would barter sometimes. But many of her trips were paid for by church members. She traveled across the country and out a couple of times. No jobs and no savings (according to her own word). I think it takes a special personality/world view to live that way. I would feel like I'm constantly owing someone.

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1 hour ago, lilwriter85 said:

Didn't claim that Zsu that PP refuses to take tax breaks for the strip mall church?

No. They refuse to become a 501c3 organization. Therefore those giving money dont get tax deductions for what they give

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10 hours ago, polecat said:

Disclaimer: I don't know these people and cannot speak for them. Nor am I assuming that the pictured people are like this.

But having grown up fundy, this is something I can answer to a degree re: a lot of fundies who have half-ass jobs with a much-nicer quality of life than would be typical for one with that type of job.

Those who work for themselves trade on their being "Christian," by which I mean, they advertise themselves as being Christian businesses and make it a huge talking point, as if by being Christian they're more honest than secular businesses. In truth, they often cut corners, cheat clients and worse. Not all of them, by any means. Some are likely honest people. But many are not, ime.

Second, they frequently cheat on their taxes. Not overtly, but by underreporting their income, working "under the table," paying people "off the books," or similar shenanigans. This keeps their overall expenses lower. (But as someone who is also self-employed, I can promise them that it WILL come back to bite them in the ass when they have little or nothing to collect for social security.)

Third, they have gotten scrimping and saving down to an art form. And this often includes taking every handout available. They know where every area food bank is, which resale shops have the best deals (and when their sales are), they know how to get extra discounts and specials, and they know how to get blood out of a turnip. And never discount the power of complaint: It's amazing how many freebies you get when you're the squeaky wheel.

Finally, they know how to hit other people up for money when they need/want it. Wednesday night prayer meeting is more than just another church service. It's a great way to grift. "Pray for us. Our van has a broken thermonuclear regulator gasket. We need $5 gazillion to fix it. Pray that Jaysus comes through for us!" And then lo and behold, some poor sucker will sure enough either hand them an envelope full of money or the keys to a new/used vehicle. Golly gee, isn't it amazing how Jaysus works?!?!

(There might be more I'm not thinking of just now, but these are just off the top of my head.)

I had a "christian" come here today to power wash and clean my front patio.  I paid $30.00/hour, a very good hourly wage for this area, because I wanted the work done well.  It was a detailed job, there was a fair amount of moss and black mold to remove in an 8x10 area.  I also wanted him to remove the grout around my bath tub so I could re-grout it.  All of this was agreed upon before he came here.

He got here 20 minutes late, said he had trouble finding my place(it is exceedingly easy to find).  Over the course of the next 7 hours he took two 20 minute breaks, a 20 minute bathroom break(seriously, I had a friend here and she needed to use my bathroom), talked to his family by phone at least hourly(5-10 minute conversations, stopped working while they talked). I had to go out and ask him to get off his phone, I think he was surprised that I could hear him.  Normally I don't begrudge the breaks but I'd decided I wasn't going to pay him for them or his time on the phone with his family or the 20 minute bathroom break.  Plus the many times I looked outside to see him just standing there.    

This was a 6 hour job(at the top) and he's 2/3 done after 7 hours.  He made no mention of coming back and finishing anything tomorrow and asked to be paid for what he told me was 7 hours work.  I told him I didn't want to pay until the job was completed.  He told me his wife needed the check tonight so she could deposit it.  I told him the banks aren't open and she would have it tomorrow.  I told him I wanted to make sure he would come back and complete the job at which point he said he was a christian and would never do that.  I still didn't trust him but I ended up paying him for 5 hours.  He's guaranteed me he will be here by 7:00am in the morning because he has another job somewhere else tomorrow.  I hope he shows and I am going to be on him like bees on honey.

Thanks for allowing me to vent.  I feel like a bitch writing all this but I'll be damned if I pay someone good money and they don't hold up their end of the bargain.  Grrrrrrr.

 

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My fundie parents were too proud to grift and too honest to cheat on their taxes. My dad worked full-time, my mom stayed home and homeschooled her large flock of children. We lived a very tight, frugal existence. Now that I'm grown up, I have extreme anxiety about finances and also have anxiety around food, because we had very tight portion control on more expensive food. We were not starved, but sometimes I like buying a whole cake for myself just because I know I can have as much as I want now. 

And I know nobody upthread meant it this way, but fundie or atheist, Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal, there is no shame in using government health insurance for your children. I'd rather see hypocritical fundies taking their kids to the doctor than consistent fundies letting their kids die for lack of medicine. Large families, even with working parents, are likely to qualify for income-based assistance. Take it, people, and take your kids to the doctor when they need to go. 

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On 5/18/2018 at 10:38 PM, TatiFish9 said:

I thought the Keilens live in ATI/IBLP funded home. I suspect many of the "royals" and prominent members receive help from the org. especially when they're working for them directly.

I also suspect fundies purchase habits are similar to those of the general population. Some have little money but know how to make it stretch across important vs. luxury. 

I can see how the house on the topic head is in question. I suspect, as many have mentioned, savings and family help on that one.

 

Yes, for sure. I have a relative who was in the ministry right out of college. His church even provided his toilet paper, mowed his lawn, and a lot of other stuff. (The house was technically a rental, but a ton was provided.) 

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9 hours ago, Lisafer said:

And I know nobody upthread meant it this way, but fundie or atheist, Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal, there is no shame in using government health insurance for your children. I'd rather see hypocritical fundies taking their kids to the doctor than consistent fundies letting their kids die for lack of medicine. Large families, even with working parents, are likely to qualify for income-based assistance. Take it, people, and take your kids to the doctor when they need to go. 

Oh I totally agree. I wish healthcare was affordable for all. It’s just when thinking about how fundies afford things, we often think according to our own situations. And I have good insurance yet we still had to pay quite a chunk for an uncomplicated birth in a hospital. But then I have to remind myself that many fundies like JRod most likely pay nothing for her most event birth. I’m glad of that actually. Because it means Jill is more likely to get the medical care they need if it’s free. There are some fundies that seem to avoid the doctor. And I always think that it’s because of the expense.

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10 hours ago, Lisafer said:

My fundie parents were too proud to grift and too honest to cheat on their taxes. My dad worked full-time, my mom stayed home and homeschooled her large flock of children. We lived a very tight, frugal existence. Now that I'm grown up, I have extreme anxiety about finances and also have anxiety around food, because we had very tight portion control on more expensive food. We were not starved, but sometimes I like buying a whole cake for myself just because I know I can have as much as I want now. 

And I know nobody upthread meant it this way, but fundie or atheist, Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal, there is no shame in using government health insurance for your children. I'd rather see hypocritical fundies taking their kids to the doctor than consistent fundies letting their kids die for lack of medicine. Large families, even with working parents, are likely to qualify for income-based assistance. Take it, people, and take your kids to the doctor when they need to go. 

No, all fundy parents do not grift for sure.

Spoiler

My father was career military. And personally, I'd be interested in seeing an unofficial "study" on how many fundy military people there ARE because it seems like fundy churches just LOVE setting up shop right next door to bases/posts because people are far away from families and support systems and ripe for the pickin'. But that's neither here nor there for the purpose of this thread.

1

And I don't begrudge anyone government help when necessary -- certainly not when kids are involved. 

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12 hours ago, Mrs. Bean said:

Do you remember when Alan Smith (May he rot in prison forever and ever) was arrested, Michael Morton set up Go Fund Me for Katie and the children asking for 5k for her and her children’s needs. 

Rebecca(from the bringing home a wife story) did this when her husband went to jail for possibly selling guns to terrorists.  I think originally they said they wanted people to donate enough so she would have $35,000 a year while her husband served his time. When that was met with shock and lack of donations they lowered it a great deal. 

It always seemed like he was willing to do illegal things because they were flat broke after Rebecca quit her job. It didn't seem like they had any sort of savings. 

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@polecat I wonder, also, if people in the military are more likely to be the personality type that is attracted to fundie-ism? I know that's a huge generalization, but both military and fundies have a lot of rules and regulations that might make some people more comfortable! My dad was in the military for a time as well, before he became fundie.

Thanks for responding. My parents refused government healthcare when their children were small, so I didn't see a doctor until I was 17.  I might be a little bitter... 

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3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Rebecca(from the bringing home a wife story) did this when her husband went to jail for possibly selling guns to terrorists.  I think originally they said they wanted people to donate enough so she would have $35,000 a year while her husband served his time. When that was met with shock and lack of donations they lowered it a great deal. 

It always seemed like he was willing to do illegal things because they were flat broke after Rebecca quit her job. It didn't seem like they had any sort of savings. 

So when the rubber met the proverbial road Rebecca’s church family wasn’t willing or able to step up and do their part to continue the lifestyle they so adamantly advocated for and professed to be the only right way to live. A Litmus test that this  lifestyle is actually unsustainable. 

Do we know what became of Colemans? 

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17 hours ago, lilwriter85 said:

Didn't claim that Zsu that PP refuses to take tax breaks for the strip mall church?

PP & Zsu are not a church in the eyes of the IRS - they were never granted Church status.  Check guidestar.org.

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5 hours ago, Lisafer said:

@polecat I wonder, also, if people in the military are more likely to be the personality type that is attracted to fundie-ism? I know that's a huge generalization, but both military and fundies have a lot of rules and regulations that might make some people more comfortable! My dad was in the military for a time as well, before he became fundie.

Thanks for responding. My parents refused government healthcare when their children were small, so I didn't see a doctor until I was 17.  I might be a little bitter... 

While the military as a whole does skew right and Christian, it is not as pervasive a culture as you would think, at least in the AF.  Ironically, the military is the one place in this country where there is single-payer government health care and it is pretty damn good,  I spent 6 days in the hospital with my oldest (i had hemorrhaged and she had jaundice) and it cost us about 25 bucks.  I really miss being near a big military hospital.

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Speaking of fundies and fundraising, there was a fundie father of seven kids who died last year. A Youcaring fund was set up and over 100k was raised. The father Cody May was well known in some pro-life circles. Anyway, according to the updates, the money was used to pay off remaining debs they had from adopting children from Congo and vehicle debts and other future expenses. I haven't found any recent updates on the family.

https://www.youcaring.com/kimberlymay-740403

 

I also remember the Little Tait medical fund story. A couple in Alaska who involved with VF ties had a son who was born premature and qualified for Medicaid assistance because of the birth weight. They refused the assistance and four years later they started fundraising to pay the remaining 100k.

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8 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Rebecca(from the bringing home a wife story) did this when her husband went to jail for possibly selling guns to terrorists.  I think originally they said they wanted people to donate enough so she would have $35,000 a year while her husband served his time. When that was met with shock and lack of donations they lowered it a great deal. 

Even better, they went into why she absolutely couldn't work a job and put her kids into daycare--because no loving mother would do such a thing. 

So, women who did work (wage slaves, I believe we're called) and possibly had kids in daycare were supposed to donate their earnings to the righteous Rebecca. 

I really wish we could find a screenshot of that GoFundMe because the denial and blame shifting was pretty epic. 

18 minutes ago, lilwriter85 said:

The father Cody May was well known in some pro-life circles. Anyway, according to the updates, the money was used to pay off remaining debs they had from adopting children from Congo and vehicle debts and other future expenses. I haven't found any recent updates on the family.

https://www.youcaring.com/kimberlymay-740403

I don't understand the wording of this: "He was not aware of the perilous underwater geography of this lake.  He stepped off an underwater shelf, and literally stepped into eternity." Does that mean he stepped into unexpectedly deep water? So he couldn't swim? I'm really shocked that someone who is that weak of a swimmer would be out in a natural body of water without a life vest. 

I wonder if it was worded that way to avoid safety criticisms. 

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