Bates 24: Selling the ‘Happy Family’ Lifestyle

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, nausicaa said:

have never seen a place that had the gall to put Forrest on anything. Not once. And I'm talking about places where the docent called it "The War of Northern Aggression."

Exactly. They had to go out of their way to find that picture. It wasn't an accident their patriot room was devoted to the Confederacy. 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, Mrs Ms said:

Have they ever explained who Nathan is named for/after? 

Not that I can recall. It's possible that it was an innocent choice. It is a pretty popular boy's name and it's biblical. 

[TeaELSee]

5 hours ago, Mrs Ms said:

Have they ever explained who Nathan is named for/after? 

His first name is Kenneth, Nathaniel is his middle name. It’s weird they did that with Lawson too, his first name is William.

eta: William is Gil’s dads name right? I imagine Kenneth is a family name too.

[TeaELSee]

Here is the link to the names.

Link

[TatiFish9]

On 8/6/2018 at 11:59 AM, Pecansforeveryone said:

I think they might feel overshadowed, forgotten,left behind at the prospect of interacial grandchildren. If their grandchildren aren't "noticeably white, don't identify as white, don't look as much like their white grandparents and white parent", they might feel less connected to that grandchild. It's a horrible, uncomfortable thought but people are human and this happens. It does. 

I dont understand. Why does skin color bring about a disconnect? Also is this felt when a white child has darker hues, like more olive skin tone and/or darker hair but no known minority/or brown ethnicity? I ask because I heard Michelle saying some of the Duggars are darker than others at least 2xs. I have no idea who she was talking about. All of them have variations of blue eyes and light to blondish hair, except maybe Jinger has darker hair (not sure). I also think Josiah has red hair. I noticed that Jill and Derrick colored Jeremy and Jinger a darker color in their art. Jill seemed to highlight she was shocked Israel had blond hair. Jessa distinguishes Spurge and Henry by their hair color. Is this a common thing?

ETA: I thought it was odd that Jinger would not say Jeremy's eyes were Brown, but felt comfortable with Hazel. His mother said his eyes were brown and Jeremy jokes around with it but did not confirm hazel eyes. We tend to get on the Bates more because they had that confederate room but there's something going on with the Duggars too. I just hope they're not caught up in Eugenics. I'm not pulling that out of my behind either. Most cults have some underlying fear as their central motivational source. I know with Gothard it was control of youth and fear of societal change. But that quiverfull obsession seems to be more than just having children for the sake of having children. 

[TatiFish9]

On 8/6/2018 at 5:26 PM, BernRul said:

[***] For me, it was a little hard at first to think that my kids 1. won't look like me (there's no possiblity that they could have my eyes/hair for example) [***]

 

Thank you so much for your transparency and for sharing your story. I agree that these type of conversations must remain fluid to encourage understanding and to burst open the flood gates to racial healing in this country for those who truly want change. I enjoyed reading this post.

To the snippet, I don't know your particular family make-up but I have seen too many families where this is not the case. One particularly is AA/White friend couple where their child has green eyes and fairly straight hair. The AA parent is not fair skinned black and the white parent has brown hair and dark eyes (maybe hazel). They constantly tell stories of people mistaking the child's identity when the child was younger. I admit that this is rare ,but still occurs enough where it is not impossible for your children to look like/similar to you, because your partner has a different racially background. Genetics is so tricky that way. With that said I know this kind of thing is more common in places like the U.S. where many AAs  and whites have a significantly mixed racial heritage that pops up through the gene pool from time to time with family not knowing it existed. Elsewhere, is may not be so common.

[nickelodeon]

I've known VF and Doug Wilson followers who are highkey KKK apologists, love Birth of a Nation, and like to believe that SOMEONE needed to step up and protect Reconstruction-era white women from the people previously enslaved (BY THEM). It's super gross. I would imagine that the Bates aren't into that, but honestly, I dunno. I can't imagine how you'd accidentally hang a picture of Forrest in your home.

[Pecansforeveryone]

There's also just a certain romanticizing/ minimizing of the horrors of slavery in certain subsets of the American population. The random person who says that house slaves were part of the white slave owners family. That the slave owners regarded their most beloved slaves almost like children. I met a man in his 50s who actually said the Klan started out as a way of defending the virtue of white women. (He wasn't a lily white Southerner, either.) 

[JoylessAnna]

23 hours ago, TeaELSee said:

His first name is Kenneth, Nathaniel is his middle name. It’s weird they did that with Lawson too, his first name is William.

eta: William is Gil’s dads name right? I imagine Kenneth is a family name too.

The eldest three Bates brothers were given family names.

- Zachary was given the middle name Gilvin (shared with grandfather Bill, Gil, and later given to Bradley).

- Lawson’s first name, William, is after Bill.

- Nathan’s first name, Kenneth, is after Kelly’s dad.

[formergothardite]

12 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

I would imagine that the Bates aren't into that, but honestly, I dunno.

See, I imagine that that is exactly what the Bates are like I think it is easy to forget how racist some of the even more mainstream fundie groups have been. Up until fairly recently either Bob Jones or Abeka taught that the KKK was a kind Christian group that helped poor people and widows. IMO the Bates are probably way way more racist than they allow people to see. I think that we got that brief glimpse into their racism because they have been in such a bubble of racists that they forgot most people will be horrified at putting a KKK leader's picture up on the wall and calling him a patriot.  

[JordynDarby5]

5 hours ago, formergothardite said:

See, I imagine that that is exactly what the Bates are like I think it is easy to forget how racist some of the even more mainstream fundie groups have been. Up until fairly recently either Bob Jones or Abeka taught that the KKK was a kind Christian group that helped poor people and widows. IMO the Bates are probably way way more racist than they allow people to see. I think that we got that brief glimpse into their racism because they have been in such a bubble of racists that they forgot most people will be horrified at putting a KKK leader's picture up on the wall and calling him a patriot.  

So do I. I really think those are the beliefs of Kelly and Gil. Because they put them up on their wall. And showed pictures of them in their blog. It never occurred to them that that anyone would ask them why they pictures were all of Confederate generals and the first wizard of the KKK. They hid less in the days before they realized they needed to project an image that would get them more fans, spots on the Duggar show and in hopes of getting their own show. They haven't changed their opinions on anything they've just scrubbed anything and everything that might ruin that image. Their true selves. Luckily the internet is forever and a lot of what they tried to get rid of is still out there.  Taking down the pictures had nothing to do with any of the Bates seeing the light or not realizing who all was on the wall. But because so many people questioned them. And that it might potentially wreck the gravy train. If you look at the pre-scrub that's who Kelly and Gil really are. Before they learned to be savvy. They've gotten a lot better but they haven't changed.        

[nolongerIFBx]

Some claim that Forrest realized the wrong he had done and the KKK became something far different than what he had intended.

(These are not scholarly articles.)

http://the-american-catholic.com/2010/08/06/nathan-bedford-forrest-and-racial-reconciliation/

http://shanekastler.typepad.com/pastor_shanes_blog/2008/07/when-the-devil-got-saved-the-christian-conversion-of-nathan-bedford-forrest.html

Not sure that would be enough to make me put his picture on my wall. Well, unless I was a murderer who repented and then wanted an example of someone else who changed. . . but probably still not.

[Pecansforeveryone]

@formergothardite, yes Bob Jones University has long had nasty racist views. Their ban on interracial dating came to light during George W Bush's  2000 campaign. They lifted the ban under intense scrutiny and backlash, not because of personal conviction. 

[formergothardite]

38 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

They lifted the ban under intense scrutiny and backlash, not because of personal conviction. 

I remember that and that there were many people who thought it was awful they were forced to change. Recently the racist teachings in many of the popular Christian textbooks have become more public. Bob Jones was one of the worsts, but Abeka and ACE are pretty awful too. 

Some quotes:

Quote

God used the Trail of Tears to bring many Indians to Christ.”—America: Land That I Love, Teacher ed., A Beka Book, 1994

 

Quote

Only about ten percent of Africans can read and write. In some areas the mission schools have been shut down by Communists who have taken over the government.”—Old World History and Geography in Christian Perspective, 3rd ed., A Beka Book, 2004

Quote

Examples of slaves beaten to death were not common, neither were they unknown. The majority of slave holders treated their slaves well.”—United States History for Christian Schools, 2nd ed., Bob Jones University Press, 1991

The BJU teachings about the KKK

Quote

“[The Ku Klux] Klan in some areas of the country tried to be a means of reform, fighting the decline in morality and using the symbol of the cross. Klan targets were bootleggers, wife-beaters, and immoral movies. In some communities it achieved a certain respectability as it worked with politicians.”—United States History for Christian Schools, 3rd ed., Bob Jones University Press, 2001

And, of course, this lovely bit about people who are gay. I have no doubt the Bates are fine with most of the things written in these books. 

Quote

Gay people “have no more claims to special rights than child molesters or rapists.”—Teacher’s Resource Guide to Current Events for Christian Schools, 1998-1999, Bob Jones University Press, 1998

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/08/photos-evangelical-curricula-louisiana-tax-dollars/

[SoSoNosy]

My first husband's father's name was Forrest.  He had a cousin named Forrest, and he grew up in a town named Forrest City.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was buried in Forrest Park in Memphis; he and his wife may still be there but the statue that stood over them has been taken down and the park was renamed. There was quite an uproar, because the Mayor sold all the parks to a Greenspace organization for $1.00 each.

[stardust]

On 8/9/2018 at 7:50 AM, formergothardite said:

Up until fairly recently either Bob Jones or Abeka taught that the KKK was a kind Christian group that helped poor people and widows.

As someone who was homeschooled with Abeka I can reveal that the KKK was never mentioned once. There was one chapter on ending slavery and the Civil War (which of course heavily glorified Abraham Lincoln) and one chapter on Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights Movement, a little paragraph about George Washington Carver and that was literally it. A lot of black history was glossed over entirely... and don't even get me started on the whole pilgrims and Native Americans thing. American History with Abeka was complete BS!

[llg1234]

16 hours ago, SoSoNosy said:

My first husband's father's name was Forrest.  He had a cousin named Forrest, and he grew up in a town named Forrest City.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was buried in Forrest Park in Memphis; he and his wife may still be there but the statue that stood over them has been taken down and the park was renamed. There was quite an uproar, because the Mayor sold all the parks to a Greenspace organization for $1.00 each.

My mind is blown rn, because I've never made the connection between places with the name 'Forrest' and him before. I always stupidly wondered why it was spelled wrong.  

[Ivycoveredtower]

as Judson Says and the Awkwardness continues. clip from this weeks episode lets discuss what to do on a date and what a chaperone does. 

https://www.uptv.com/bringing-up-bates/bringing-up-bates-awkward/

[QuiverDance]

On 8/7/2018 at 11:08 AM, nausicaa said:

To add to that, I have visited a lot of historic homes/battlefields in the South and I always hit the gift shops. I have seen plenty of questionable stuff. But while the Confederate flag and Stonewall Jackson make their appearances on items, I have never seen a place that had the gall to put Forrest on anything. Not once. And I'm talking about places where the docent called it "The War of Northern Aggression."

So I could give them a pass for Jackson if I were feeling generous, since maybe Gil and Kelly just grew up with his image on things without thinking about him all that much (I've never claimed Gil or Kelly think all that deeply about anything) or it was a portrait that was passed down through the family. But Forrest? No way. 

 

Aside: And while we're on the topic of creepy Klan-owned businesses, anyone know of that scary stripped down white building on the side of the highway in South Carolina (either 95 or 74) on the way to Myrtle Beach? It's a "shop" and is quite literally covered in Confederate flags and painted on bulls eyes. I've been driving by it for years now. Is it as terrifying as I suspect it is inside? Is the owner insane?

So, I live in a place where Forrest is a very integral part of the town's culture and history, given that he led Confederate troops in a particularly gruesome Civil War battle was fought in the town, not around the town, or near the town, but actually in it.  Our main attraction is a large Confederate cemetery on the grounds of a plantation that was commandeered as a battlefield hospital.  The Confederate casualties were massive -- 6 generals were killed in the battle (obviously he was not one of them because he went on to lead the KKK and didn't die until 1877) -- and NBF's men were hit very hard.  Forrest's name appears alllllll over the town, including in the name of a neighborhood which was not so much after him, but after the part of the battle that was fought where the homes were built.  For 150 years or so, people here took it for granted that his legacy was mixed with the city's, but late last year, the golf course next to that neighborhood dropped "Forrest" from its own name.  And then there is this.... 

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/12/27/nathan-bedford-forrest-statue-nashville-vandalized-pink/984740001/

We in the South know exactly who this man is, and we are well aware of his hideous legacy.  We know he sucked.  We are taking down the memorials to him, and people are defacing the ones on private property.  The Bates know, too, which is why I cannot understand what would possess the sister of black women to hang that picture on her wall.  

 

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

Lawson crashes Bori and Carvan's double date. 

https://www.uptv.com/bringing-up-bates/bringing-up-bates-striking-out/

[tumblr]

I've always enjoyed the name Forest or Forrester for a little boy. After this thread though I'm a little less fond of it. 

[llucie]

4 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Lawson crashes Bori and Carvan's double date. 

https://www.uptv.com/bringing-up-bates/bringing-up-bates-striking-out/

Its me or lately it seems the show feels a lot more scripted? i guess they realized how boring they are.

[Ivycoveredtower]

18 minutes ago, llucie said:

Its me or lately it seems the show feels a lot more scripted? i guess they realized how boring they are.

I think it has to do with them trying to stay current in the time line as much as possible unlike the Duggar's so they are pushing as many episodes as possible into a season and if it's not babies weddings or a courtship they need something to fill those episodes. next week we already know Tori is pregnant, both new babies have been born. Carlin and Evan are feaking stale and does anyone really care that Tori and Bobby are moving they had to do something a bit funny and Lawson seems good for a laugh. 

 

Ps. Also why is it every time we see a Bates Bowling they act like they have never done it before. that gag is getting tired. 

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

Fun Fact:
There was a Nathan B. Forrest High School in Jacksonville, FL.  They just got around to changing the name in 2013. 
Both my parents are/were from Jacksonville, so I've done my research.  It was a hotbed during the civil rights movement.  With that in mind, naming a High School (in 1959 btw) Nathan B. Forrest seems like a blatant slap in the face to a black majority town (at the time).  

[Ivycoveredtower]

Chaperone talk

https://www.uptv.com/bringing-up-bates/bringing-up-bates-chaperone-perks/

 

Lawson the forever fifth wheel. 

https://www.uptv.com/bringing-up-bates/bringing-up-bates-the-fifth-wheel/