Josh, Anna, and the M&Ms: Part 17

[SilverBeach]

On 7/10/2018 at 7:16 AM, VelociRapture said:

Yeah. I’d have no issue with patients having to go through a counseling session or something to be positive it’s what they really want because it is a big surgery and a big choice

Nope, not unless folks wanting to have children are required to do the same. There is hardly a bigger choice than bringing another life into this world. To sterilize yourself is an adults choice to make without being vetted by anyone, just like it is to become a mother or father. It is unacceptably paternalistic for medical care providers to second guess the decisions of  adults.

I got slammed for questioning the policy of colleges allowing dependent students to control the flow of information to their parents, ostensibly because such students are adults and should be unconditionally autonomous because privacy. How can this position be reconciled with making bonafide adults justify decisions regarding procedures to be done to their very own body? I don't recall if you were involved in the college student discussion, but the hypocrisy is glaring to me.

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Nope, not unless folks wanting to have children are required to do the same. There is hardly a bigger choice than bringing another life into this world. To sterilize yourself is an adults choice to make without being vetted by anyone, just like it is to become a mother or father. It is unacceptably paternalistic for medical care providers to second guess the decisions of  adults.

I got slammed for questioning the policy of colleges allowing dependent students to control the flow of information to their parents, ostensibly because such students are adults and should be unconditionally autonomous because privacy. How can this position be reconciled with making bonafide adults justify decisions regarding procedures to be done to their very own body? I don't recall if you were involved in the college student discussion, but the hypocrisy is glaring to me.

Please read through the rest of my comment and a comment I made later on in this discussion. You’ll see I clarified myself and apologized for the poor choice in wording in the very brief section you quoted. 

ETA: For anyone reading this, here is the full comment that @SilverBeachpulled this portion from:

”Yeah. I’d have no issue with patients having to go through a counseling session or something to be positive it’s what they really want because it is a big surgery and a big choice. That said, there’s a huge difference between a Doctor suggesting a counseling session prior to performing the surgery and a Doctor flat out refusing to perform it at all because a patient is young and may change her mind. It’s not the Doctor’s body or decision to make. If a patient later regrets not having children then there are still other ways to try and become a parent. 

ETA: Thinking back, that should probably read “I’d have no issue with Doctors suggesting that patients have a counseling session” rather than, “I’d have no issue with patients having to go through a counseling session.” I think it could be useful for some patients to go to a session if they’re not completely sure, but it’s probably more of an annoyance and a hurdle for patients who are positive about the surgery already.”

I made a poorly worded comment and I have already apologized for that in another comment and explained what my original thought process when writing it was. I would really appreciate it if people would read through my full comment prior to passing any judgements, as that one brief portion does not give an accurate picture of my beliefs or what I continued on to say. 

As for the school/college discussion, I remember reading it but I don’t recall if I participated. I sometimes skip out on participating of I don’t feel up to it. 

[SweetJuly]

3 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Whether or not both people in a marriage are OK with the procedure is not a matter for medical care providers to  to get involved in. Only one adult body is undergoing a procedure and it should be the only body that needs to authorize it. Children should be wanted by both parents.

Yes, that is what I said in the rest of my post which you only quoted partially.

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

I would really appreciate it if people would read through my full comment prior to passing any judgements, as that one brief portion does not give an accurate picture of my beliefs or what I continued on to say. 

I would appreciate this also. The opposite has happened to me several times, and it has been greatly irritating. We could all use the benefit of a doubt sometimes, as it can be difficult to parse out the true meaning of what a poster is saying when it is revised. Truthfully, I don't think longer posts get read carefully or thoughtfully. And I do have strong opinions on this subject. I love FJ, but sometimes hypocrisy rears its' ugly head.

16 minutes ago, SweetJuly said:

 

I saw that later. We are in agreement then.

[VelociRapture]

7 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I would appreciate this also. The opposite has happened to me several times, and it has been greatly irritating. We could all use the benefit of a doubt sometimes, as it can be difficult to parse out the true meaning of what a poster is saying when it is revised. Truthfully, I don't think longer posts get read carefully or thoughtfully. And I do have strong opinions on this subject.

I saw that later. We are in agreement then.

Absolutely. I completely get why you’d have strong opinions on this topic - tubal ligation and other reproductive healthcare decisions should be personal choices made primarily by the woman in question with opinions given by her partner, if she has one and if she wants to take their opinion into consideration at all, and the pertinent medical facts (not their personal opinion) from her medical provider. If a woman is unsure or is being pressured by anyone into a decision, then suggesting therapy with an unbiased third party could be a good idea for her - otherwise, it’s just going to be yet another hurdle in obtaining adequate healthcare and is something I don’t believe should be demanded or necessary. 

Again, I apologize for my poor choice in wording in my original comment and if I offended you, or anyone else, in anyway. My comment was based off an inaccurate comparison in my thought process and I’m sorry for that. I hope this helps clarify my views further, but if not please let me know. 

[nausicaa]

On 7/10/2018 at 10:50 AM, Yomoaw said:

I work in pharma and actually used to work on my company's birth control portfolio. We did a study that found the average age in the US that a woman is done having children is 26. If a woman can decide on her own to have children and stop at 26, she should also be able to not have children and decide on her own to stop at 26. (or before, obvs.)

Did that study have a couple 13 year old moms completely skew the results? CDC data shows that the average of first childbirth in the United States is now 28. 

Even in 1970, the average age women were done having children was older than 26. 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr51/nvsr51_01.pdf

[Yomoaw]

27 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Did that study have a couple 13 year old moms completely skew the results? CDC data shows that the average of first childbirth in the United States is now 28. 

Even in 1970, the average age women were done having children was older than 26. 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr51/nvsr51_01.pdf

My guess is more that it's skewed by the women not intending to have children (which I've mentioned). It also was heavily focused intent, vs unplanned pregnancies. But yes, I would guess that the CDC has better data (and access to better data) and a larger sample than we did. 

[Oh_Dear!]

 

so... Meredith is stinking cute. Just sayin’

[SapphireSlytherin]

I think she really favors Priscilla.

[Dandruff]

20 minutes ago, Oh_Dear! said:

so... Meredith is stinking cute. Just sayin’

I agree.  She has been the mystery Duggar to me...her father's exposed behavior seemed to have overshadowed any kind of proper introduction.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Kenzie is just the cutest little girl! If she made that whole outfit, I’m beyond impressed (I understand she probably had help but it’s still great). If she didn’t make the dress, she still sad a great job on her apron. 

[wandering woman]

Sewing camp??? Poor kids.

[nastyhobbitses]

36 minutes ago, wandering woman said:

Sewing camp??? Poor kids.

If she's genuinely into it, I think sewing camp sounds like great fun. I regret not learning how to sew when I was younger; I can manage fixing hems and making very simple, kinda crappy pillowcases, and that's just about it. Knowing how to sew is a wonderful skill. Now, if she would rather be outside playing in the mud and sewing camp is basically a precursor to JTTH, then I'd take issue with her going to sewing camp. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

If she's genuinely into it, I think sewing camp sounds like great fun. I regret not learning how to sew when I was younger; I can manage fixing hems and making very simple, kinda crappy pillowcases, and that's just about it. Knowing how to sew is a wonderful skill. Now, if she would rather be outside playing in the mud and sewing camp is basically a precursor to JTTH, then I'd take issue with her going to sewing camp. 

I agree. And she may have gotten to know a few non fundie girls in her group. 

[AprilQuilt]

17 hours ago, Oh_Dear! said:

 

so... Meredith is stinking cute. Just sayin’

well, that's adorable.

She's definitely starting to look like a little girl rather than the squishy wee toddler she was. I actually think she looks a LOT like Jordyn here - the shape of the mouth and the upper lip. ETA: actually and the eyes and the whole expression. Profile is pure Keller though.

[SapphireSlytherin]

Sewing camp is awesome!

I can sew anything - seriously. But don't ask me to alter something. Those are two entirely different skills.

[Carm_88]

I think sewing is a great skill to have! There's nothing wrong with the girls getting out of Duggar-ville and learning new things!  

[ViolaSebastian]

I can understand why it gets the side-eye. It's hard to tell with this crew what's genuine interest and what's enforcement of traditional gender roles. I sincerely hope that the girls want to be there and they're enjoying themselves.

[Audrey2]

I started 4-H when I was 9, and did sewing projects through school clothes and sports clothes. I also did cooking through breads 2, but also did model airplane, geneology, electricity, magnatism, photography, and other things except animals (we lived in town) and woodworking (I was afraid I'd cut fingers off with the saw). My sister and brother both did woodworking. I was in 4-H for 10 years.

I'm okay with them learning how to sew, but they shouldn't be forced beyond basic knowledge unless they want to continue. Then I'm also fine with teaching boys to sew and follow a pattern as well.

[tabitha2]

Anna sews, Most of her aunts sew. She has grown up watching it , probably has had the basics down for awhile and wants to move on to more advanced stuff. A very useful and potentially profitable skill to have. 

[TheOneAndOnly]

Sewing camp. I am legitimately jealous. 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

I just took some sewing classes this year as an adult and loved them. I've always been into crafts but wasn't interested in sewing because I didn't get how the machine would work, I thought it would be all by hand. Now I wish I had learned the basics as a kid, it would be much easier to relearn or continue if I'd been into it like I was with knitting. I wish my mom had forced me to take one basic class and see if I enjoyed it.

[rainbowbabycakes]

sewing camp sounds like fun, and Meredith is stinkin' adorable

 

[candygirl200413]

My mom actually signed me up for sewing and knitting camp because I was super over the church camp scene and it's a solid skill to have! Apparently, a good amount of my college friends didn't know how to and my mom sent me with a sewing kit so I was there for sudden emergencies that needed stitching.

[SorenaJ]

Did Michael and Marcus learn to sew?