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Josh, Anna, and the M&Ms: Part 17


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SilverBeach

Are there any vocal anti-choice folks who are non-religious? If religion is the basis of a person's anti-choice stance, Christianity in particular, then shouldn't there be a belief that God will resurrect all of the aborted?

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Rachel333
1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

Are there any vocal anti-choice folks who are non-religious? If religion is the basis of a person's anti-choice stance, Christianity in particular, then shouldn't there be a belief that God will resurrect all of the aborted?

I've seen non-religious people who are anti-abortion, yes. The belief that one shouldn't end the life of a fetus isn't necessarily tied to religion.

As for the religious people, they typically do believe aborted fetuses are going to Heaven, which weirdly means that in their worldview aborted fetuses are often better off being aborted and going to Heaven than being born and potentially going through life as non-Christians.

Edited by Rachel333
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Jana814

I have known people who not religious & anti-aboration. 

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SapphireSlytherin

My atheist husband is against abortion. We have had “discussions” about this. 

 

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Daisy0322

Im against abortion for myself I believe that there's a little life in there, but I feel it would be very egotistical to believe that I MUST be right. I could easily be wrong and even if I'm not I see no to reason to impose my morals and beliefs on others. Also there's many circumstances I've never been in, so how can I say I would never choose to abort no way no how? Therefore, Im pro choice. 

I don't understand how it is such a big issue for people. We live in a free country therefore we don't have to all believe the same thing. Ugh the topic gets me heated, my parents are so judgmental and rascist about abortion I can't stand it.

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SorenaJ

I'm against abortion but I'm pro-choice. I don't think abortion is a great idea, but it's not my job, or anyone else's, to tell women what to do with their bodies. 

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Nikedagain?
4 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

I'm against abortion but I'm pro-choice. I don't think abortion is a great idea, but it's not my job, or anyone else's, to tell women what to do with their bodies. 

Well, WHO is pro abortion? 

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SapphireSlytherin
1 hour ago, Nikedagain? said:

Well, WHO is pro abortion? 

See? That's the thing. The pro-choice people are seen as "PRO-ABORTION EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE ONE OR TWO OR SEVEN" by the right-to-life brigade. They don't see the CHOICE as being even part of the equation.

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Bad Wolf

Mr. Wolf tends to say pro abortion, and I have to gently correct him. He's definitely pro choice, just uses the wrong word sometimes.

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SorenaJ
7 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

Well, WHO is pro abortion

Satan? People who perform illegal abortions for a living and would otherwise not have a job?

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SweetJuly
1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

Satan? People who perform illegal abortions for a living and would otherwise not have a job?

It's almost slanderous to claim that people who perform abortions - legal or illegal - are "pro-abortion".

It's like saying that funeral directors are "pro-death".

These people provide a necessary and very important service. That is all.

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melon

My niece is 25.She doesn't want to have children...ever.She wants a tubal ligation,but can't find a doctor that will do one.

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TheOneAndOnly

Pro choice people (myself included) REALLY need to get the message out there that legal abortions are NOT the late term things that the anti abortion idiots try to say they are. A first trimester fetus is barely recognizable as anything that could be human. Google image search has a lot of fake pictures put there by the anti abortion crusaders so really vet your sources if you look this up. Pregnancy needs to stop being romanticized by the ignorant yet loud members of the public.

20 minutes ago, melon said:

My niece is 25.She doesn't want to have children...ever.She wants a tubal ligation,but can't find a doctor that will do one.

 I hate how at 25 you can be considered old enough to be raising a bunch of kids but not old enough to be responsible for deciding to not have kids. Screwed up priorities in the medical world.

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kachuu
44 minutes ago, melon said:

My niece is 25.She doesn't want to have children...ever.She wants a tubal ligation,but can't find a doctor that will do one.

There was a really interesting Ted Talks from a woman who said she knew she never wanted kids & spoke of her journey (or continued journey?) to find a doctor who will tie her tubes. She spoke about how many doctors she met with & how they all spoke condescendingly to her that "she'd change her mind". Its sad that we as women are unable to make that choice and decide for ourselves.

 

*Because we love to pay the high price (and sometimes emotional/physical pain that goes along) of birth control. :tw_rage:

Side note, I had an IUD put I this week. It was rough putting it in only to have it removed the next day because it wasn't paced properly. I have a lot to say about how the responsibility of both birth control and pregnancy lands mostly on the woman's shoulders this week LOL And I just gave birth so I'm pretty hormonal on this end :tw_grimace:

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jqlgoblue

My coworker got her tubes tied at roughly 30. Single no kids. Not sure how she managed that, I didn't realize it was so hard. (It shouldn't be, birth control sucks).

 

 

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FundieCentral

Well, in defense of the doctors: 

Irreversible operations on healthy tissues are usually something that is considered very, very carefully. I also know from endless hours on the internet that there is a psychological condition where people perceive a part of their body (an arm, a leg etc) not to be theirs. Many want that part to be amputated, but that is also very difficult and rarely done.

Obviously sex change operations are only done on adults after a year-long preparatory process including counseling, so they are handled similarly. 

I don’t know much about tubal litigation, but from what I understand it is more permanent and more invasive than a vasectomy (please correct me if I’m wrong). From that perspective, I would hope that doctors treat this similarly to other operations with permanent sterilization as the end result and require some sort of advising appointment and/or some involvement of a counselor confirming that you have understood the consequences of this operation and you are not being pressured into it or have some other impairing factor. 

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SapphireSlytherin

@FundieCentral - the thing is - the CHOICE of having a tubal ligation (I had mine at 28 after one live birth, an ectopic pregnancy, and two miscarriages) is SOLELY the woman's. I've heard of NUMEROUS women who've wanted one, but a doctor won't do it because she "might change her mind" later, especially if they're young. 

I worked with a 23-year-old who had FIVE KIDS, yet her doctor wouldn't do a tubal ligation. NO doctor, anywhere, that she could find would do so - because she was "too young" to make that decision. Yet my friend's son had a vasectomy at 22 with NO PROBLEMS.

The issue IS:  the medical world still treats women like second-class citizens who are incapable of knowing what they want (or DON'T want), and must be made to conform to society and keep the option open for having children.

A simple google search will show there are literally thousands of women who want surgical sterilization, yet they can't get it for love or money. Why? Because they're WOMEN.

The stance against sterilization, birth control, and abortion is nothing more than men controlling women. 

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VelociRapture
6 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

@FundieCentral - the thing is - the CHOICE of having a tubal ligation (I had mine at 28 after one live birth, an ectopic pregnancy, and two miscarriages) is SOLELY the woman's. I've heard of NUMEROUS women who've wanted one, but a doctor won't do it because she "might change her mind" later, especially if they're young. 

I worked with a 23-year-old who had FIVE KIDS, yet her doctor wouldn't do a tubal ligation. NO doctor, anywhere, that she could find would do so - because she was "too young" to make that decision. Yet my friend's son had a vasectomy at 22 with NO PROBLEMS.

The issue IS:  the medical world still treats women like second-class citizens who are incapable of knowing what they want (or DON'T want), and must be made to conform to society and keep the option open for having children.

A simple google search will show there are literally thousands of women who want surgical sterilization, yet they can't get it for love or money. Why? Because they're WOMEN.

The stance against sterilization, birth control, and abortion is nothing more than men controlling women. 

Yeah. I’d have no issue with patients having to go through a counseling session or something to be positive it’s what they really want because it is a big surgery and a big choice. That said, there’s a huge difference between a Doctor suggesting a counseling session prior to performing the surgery and a Doctor flat out refusing to perform it at all because a patient is young and may change her mind. It’s not the Doctor’s body or decision to make. If a patient later regrets not having children then there are still other ways to try and become a parent. 

ETA: Thinking back, that should probably read “I’d have no issue with Doctors suggesting that patients have a counseling session” rather than, “I’d have no issue with patients having to go through a counseling session.” I think it could be useful for some patients to go to a session if they’re not completely sure, but it’s probably more of an annoyance and a hurdle for patients who are positive about the surgery already. 

Edited by VelociRapture
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Kaylo
[mention=24604]FundieCentral[/mention] - the thing is - the CHOICE of having a tubal ligation (I had mine at 28 after one live birth, an ectopic pregnancy, and two miscarriages) is SOLELY the woman's. I've heard of NUMEROUS women who've wanted one, but a doctor won't do it because she "might change her mind" later, especially if they're young. 
I worked with a 23-year-old who had FIVE KIDS, yet her doctor wouldn't do a tubal ligation. NO doctor, anywhere, that she could find would do so - because she was "too young" to make that decision. Yet my friend's son had a vasectomy at 22 with NO PROBLEMS.
The issue IS:  the medical world still treats women like second-class citizens who are incapable of knowing what they want (or DON'T want), and must be made to conform to society and keep the option open for having children.
A simple google search will show there are literally thousands of women who want surgical sterilization, yet they can't get it for love or money. Why? Because they're WOMEN.
The stance against sterilization, birth control, and abortion is nothing more than men controlling women. 


My cousin had to have his wife’s consent to get his vasectomy, so it often works both ways. And it wasn’t the physician, it was their insurance company. Because some asshole at some point sued, now everyone suffers.
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I work in pharma and actually used to work on my company's birth control portfolio. We did a study that found the average age in the US that a woman is done having children is 26. If a woman can decide on her own to have children and stop at 26, she should also be able to not have children and decide on her own to stop at 26. (or before, obvs.)

 

ETA - simple average of random sample

Edited by Yomoaw
specifying for those who care about math
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Shadoewolf

I had my tubal done in Arkansas in 2015. I had to fill out a request form that my husband also had to sign, wait at least 30+ days, then the day of the surgery I had to sign another form stating I didn't hold my OB/GYN liable if it failed or if I changed my mind. I was over 35, not to mention high risk for clotting and premature births. It was ridiculous! 

The liability form I understood. Needing my husband's permission and the waiting period really bothered me. A) it's my body, if I don't want more kids Hubby can find another way and B) if I'm trying to time the surgery before school or during my kuds' offseasons or for work to recover, why make me wait?? Guys change their minds too!

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2 hours ago, Yomoaw said:

I work in pharma and actually used to work on my company's birth control portfolio. We did a study that found the average age in the US that a woman is done having children is 26. If a woman can decide on her own to have children and stop at 26, she should also be able to not have children and decide on her own to stop at 26. (or before, obvs.)

 

ETA - simple average of random sample

I'm surprised. I know my experience in one part of the US is only anecdotal and not proof of anything, but I feel like everyone I know is just now starting to have kids at around age 30. 

On another note, I know we don't have to explain our choice of reaction buttons, but @SapphireSlytherin I just want to make clear that my "WTF" reaction is meant to convey shock and dismay at the ridiculous inequality between the man and the woman that you described and not directed at you personally.

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Rachel333

Never mind, I don't feel like getting involved in this discussion. :pb_lol:

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Knight of Ni

Story from my mom so not sure about the accuracy:

A woman she knows has one child. During the pregnancy she arranged with her doctor to have a c-section and for the doctor to tie her tubes at the same time. Several years later she wants a second baby and wants to sue the doctor because the doctor should have known she would change her mind. 

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Pecansforeveryone
9 minutes ago, Knight of Ni said:

Story from my mom so not sure about the accuracy:

A woman she knows has one child. During the pregnancy she arranged with her doctor to have a c-section and for the doctor to tie her tubes at the same time. Several years later she wants a second baby and wants to sue the doctor because the doctor should have known she would change her mind. 

It's absolutely possible that this woman did change her mind. Some women have the procedure reversed so they can try to have more children. (I know some procedures are permanent. I just remember reading Rosanne had hers reversed so she could have another child.) The thing is life is a crap shoot in many ways.  We may come to regret any one of a myriad of decisions we made. Choice of spouse, going to college, not going to college, choice of career, etc. There are women who regret that they had children. If you Google Women who regret having children their stories will come up.  One way to combat this is to give people all the information possible, and then truly free them to make their own choices. Life is messy. Depriving people of liberty won't clean up the mess. 

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