Serven separation?

[Howl]

On 2/19/2019 at 4:06 PM, pohala said:

I used to be a booster of VF... I am very, very sorry for any part that I had in it and for supporting my ex in her cheerleading.

Thank you for sharing your experience and hope you are getting the post-divorce support that you need.  I'm remarried now, but the first two years post-breakup were very rough.  There was another woman involved, and  he was instantly DONE with me.  Over 15 years later, I read a book called "Runaway Husbands: The Abandoned Wife's Guide to Recovery and Renewal"  that I found helpful because it clarifies the dynamics when a spouse abruptly abandons a marriage/relationship for someone else.

Yes, it addresses women primarily, but the dynamic is the same when a spouse severs an existing relationship for a new one.  If you're a reader, I'd recommend it.  So glad you've been able to continue positive relationships with your children. 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Howl

[lexiloumarie]

Wow, I rember following them for a good bit until they locked down.

I'm just sad for all, but especially for a young life cut short. Too bad we won't see the man he could have grown into. He'd come a long way from the fundie mindset. 

I've got a lot of my own thoughts about the separation but it just doesn't feel right. 

[Jencendiary]

On 4/25/2018 at 6:25 PM, DomWackTroll said:

Carmon at a “monthly Jordan Peterson meet-up” in March:

 

 

 

 

 

My whole body recoiled. 

[Howl]

10 hours ago, Jencendiary said:

My whole body recoiled. 

Clarify? Do you dislike Jordan Peterson? 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Howl

[VVV]

58 minutes ago, Howl said:

Clarify? Do you dislike Jordan Peterson? 

Isn't this Jordan Peterson? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

Supreme Leader of the incels, isn't he?

[Howl]

The guy we go to for counseling, who I like a lot, uses a few Jordan Peterson videos.  From the ones that we've watched, I've seen no objectionable content.  I had no idea he was controversial.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

Maybe there are two Jordan Peterson’s?

[NachosFlandersStyle]

52 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Maybe there are two Jordan Peterson’s?

It's the same guy. He first became popular as a self-help author but in the last year or so has gotten a bunch of press for alt-right statements. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

57 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

It's the same guy. He first became popular as a self-help author but in the last year or so has gotten a bunch of press for alt-right statements. 

I see. I’ve definitely heard of the Jordan Peterson who seems to be worshipped by the alt right. He grosses me out. 

[hoipolloi]

Jordan Peterson has lots of alt-right and fundie fans who hang on his every Ted Talk. They think he's brilliant and totally owns liberals, feminists, atheists -- IOW, everyone they hate except non-whites. His fanboyz & girlz are too stupid & ignorant to realize that Peterson is as dumb as they are when it comes to basic biology.

Biologist and atheist PZ Myers deconstructed some of Peterson's bullshit earlier this year:

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by hoipolloi

[nausicaa]

Just now, hoipolloi said:

Jordan Peterson has lots of alt-right and fundie fans who hang on his every Ted Talk. They think he's brilliant and totally owns liberals, feminists, atheists -- IOW, everyone they hate except non-whites. His fanboyz & girlz are too stupid & ignorant to realize that Peterson is as dumb as they are when it comes to basic biology.

Biologist and atheist PZ Myers deconstructed some of Peterson's bullshit earlier this year:

I can't figure out Jordan Peterson and what it is he wants. 

On one level, he actually is calling out incels and telling them to make their damn beds and take some responsibility for themselves. I still don't know what has caused this incel movement, but if it's the lack of a father figure laying down some boundaries, and Peterson takes that role for them, so be it. If he can get them to take a shower, get a job, and stop taking their unhappiness out on women, I'm all for it.  I think he's overrated and don't know why this advice is revelatory to anyone, but I suppose most zeitgeists are just cleverly repackaged information. 

I also appreciate that he has called out the Antisemitism among the alt-right and incels, and has warned them how disgusting and dangerous it is. His 42 rule list is pretty good (except for the assumption that it is for men, as noted in #31, "Don't treat your wife like a maid," though I suppose the intent in that one is still wise for a bunch of fuck bois).

I do think some of his points are more nuanced and don't translate well to a social media world and "alt-right" doesn't quite define him (he doesn't like Trump, for instance, and has insinuated he finds the administration fascist).  I gave him a chance. I really did. I even read 12 Rules for Life. 

Then he tweets crap like this, and I'm like, dafuq dude? Were you trolling all along? What else is this other than shit stirring among the base you claim you aren't appealing to?

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/913531363915128832?lang=en

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/810162542160920576?lang=en

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/837733610157387779?lang=en

 

2 hours ago, Howl said:

The guy we go to for counseling, who I like a lot, uses a few Jordan Peterson videos.  From the ones that we've watched, I've seen no objectionable content.  I had no idea he was controversial.  

Maps of Meaning is actually a pretty good book. Like I said above, you gotta take the good with the bad. I do think some of his points about creating meaning in your life are useful and don't translate well to social media sound bites.

But he seems to have become intoxicated with his popularity and has said and tweeted some pretty dumb things. 

[onemama]

5 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I do think some of his points about creating meaning in your life are useful and don't translate well to social media sound bites.

But he seems to have become intoxicated with his popularity and has said and tweeted some pretty dumb things. 

I agree. I actually like a lot of what he has to say about personal responsibility, about embracing the pain in life and finding meaning, about taking any help you can get if you are depressed. I even have to nod my head at his explanation why there are fewer women in very high paid positions - it takes a very dedicated person, and most people don't want to have to give that much of their time and themselves to their career. Especially -most- women.  And it is true that most women want children at some point and we are the ones who need to take the time off to have them, however short that time might be.  In my opinion, he makes a lot of sense.

But those tweets you posted are awful.. it sounds like they were written by another person! 

[VVV]

9 hours ago, onemama said:

 I even have to nod my head at his explanation why there are fewer women in very high paid positions - it takes a very dedicated person, and most people don't want to have to give that much of their time and themselves to their career. Especially -most- women.  And it is true that most women want children at some point and we are the ones who need to take the time off to have them, however short that time might be.  In my opinion, he makes a lot of sense

What you're saying about women makes absolutely no sense to me. My mother (born 1926) finished her master's degree the year after her third child was born, ran for and served in elective office during two of the three decades she was actively raising children, and won the primary (but lost the general) for US House of Representatives the year her youngest graduated from high school--obviously her two decades of public service *while raising children* helped build up to this. Oddly enough we all have had great and loving relationships with her, with each other, and with our late father despite having a mother who never narrowed her focus 100% to home and family.

My personal experience with career and children, my sisters' experiences, cousins and friends--none of us fit the mold of the assumptions you're stating above either.

[hoipolloi]

9 hours ago, onemama said:

I actually like a lot of what he has to say about personal responsibility, about embracing the pain in life and finding meaning, about taking any help you can get if you are depressed. I even have to nod my head at his explanation why there are fewer women in very high paid positions - it takes a very dedicated person, and most people don't want to have to give that much of their time and themselves to their career. Especially -most- women. 

Fine. Those are your opinions just as they're Peterson's opinions. In neither case are they factual statements supported by data demonstrating that people with depression are responsible for their pain or that women have too little dedication, or whatever, to be in highly paid or powerful positions.

Peterson justifies his opinions by cloaking them in junk science -- a just-so story of biological determinism -- and lots of people who share his opinions like that because it supports their beliefs. They don't know or understand biology well enough to see how wrong & fraudulent it all is. 

I hope you're not saying these things to depressed people in your life or to young women who aspire to greater things.

 

[nokidsmom]

On 9/6/2019 at 7:43 PM, punkiepie said:

 She said that it was so hard for her to process her feelings because they never got to have either reconciliation or closure, and everything was up in the air.  I’d imagine it’s a real mind fuck to be in that situation and how easy it would be to blame yourself. I really hope Sarah doesn’t blame herself, because it’s hard enough to deal with that kind of grief without compounding it with guilt. 

I hope so, too.  It's very sad and I think I can understand a bit of what Sarah might be feeling.  

Years ago I had a very close friend, short story we became estranged, the estrangement was my decision.  A year later, this friend suddenly passes without any reconciliation, contact, anything, just things left hanging.  So I get feeling grief over losing someone you were close to and guilt over the state of the relationship at the time of their passing.   It took a lot of mental strength not to blame myself.

[nickelodeon]

My favorite article about Jordan Peterson describes him as peddling the “prosperity gospel for toxic masculinity” which is, in my opinion, very apt. (https://longreads.com/2018/07/12/petersons-complaint/)

Also he’s a betch to his university students, so fuck that guy.

[MamaJunebug]

I don’t want to be morbid but it’s gnawing at me that Mr. Winton, may he rest in peace, deleted not just his estranged wife but also his children from his SM. This does not sound like the action of a person in a good emotional place. Not the details of his demise matter. He’s gone, too soon, too sadly soon. 

I guess what I’m trying to say is, I detest the fundamentalist, dominionist practice of micro-managing the sex lives of the younger generations. Some have said the Winton couple might have been pushed into marriage too quickly; certainly older Serven sisters Rebecca (now Loomis) and Elizabeth (Ten Dolle) appear to have kept at home for several years for the parents’ selfish (IMO) convenience. 

Cults stink.  

[onemama]

14 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Fine. Those are your opinions just as they're Peterson's opinions. In neither case are they factual statements supported by data demonstrating that people with depression are responsible for their pain or that women have too little dedication, or whatever, to be in highly paid or powerful positions.

I never said they were anything but my opinions and Peterson's opinions. IIRC, he doesn't blame depressed people for their pain. He basically says that life IS pain and you have to find your calling in life so it's worth the pain. 

He didn't say that women have too little dedication, either. MOST women want to have children, which does take some time away from their careers. MOST women want more out of life than making a lot of money. The whole talk was not about why women aren't in highly paid or leadership positions, but why there are LESS women in those positions.  If you're interested, I can share the link to the video with you. 

14 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I hope you're not saying these things to depressed people in your life or to young women who aspire to greater things.

why would I do that? You think very little of me, simply because I agree with some things said by somebody you disagree with.

15 hours ago, VVV said:

What you're saying about women makes absolutely no sense to me

And that's your experience. I was quoting Jordan Peterson, and he didn't say that it applied to ALL women. Obviously, your mother doesn't belong to that majority he talks about. 

It made sense to me. I'm sorry that my agreeing with him offended some people on here. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by onemama

[VVV]

6 hours ago, onemama said:

I never said they were anything but my opinions and Peterson's opinions. IIRC, he doesn't blame depressed people for their pain. He basically says that life IS pain and you have to find your calling in life so it's worth the pain. 

He didn't say that women have too little dedication, either. MOST women want to have children, which does take some time away from their careers. MOST women want more out of life than making a lot of money. The whole talk was not about why women aren't in highly paid or leadership positions, but why there are LESS women in those positions.  If you're interested, I can share the link to the video with you. 

why would I do that? You think very little of me, simply because I agree with some things said by somebody you disagree with.

And that's your experience. I was quoting Jordan Peterson, and he didn't say that it applied to ALL women. Obviously, your mother doesn't belong to that majority he talks about. 

It made sense to me. I'm sorry that my agreeing with him offended some people on here. 

You're still assuming that JP is correct about how the majority of women feel. That's an astonishing statement and requires proof. I'm not offended; I'm just flabbergasted that such assumptions are still being treated as fact.

[Jencendiary]

On 9/9/2019 at 11:22 AM, Howl said:

Clarify? Do you dislike Jordan Peterson? 

Yes. Jordan Peterson is a well-established bag of dicks.

Transitioning from fundamentalism to MRA bullshit is a lateral move, possibly a step down. 

On 9/9/2019 at 5:20 PM, Howl said:

The guy we go to for counseling, who I like a lot, uses a few Jordan Peterson videos.  From the ones that we've watched, I've seen no objectionable content.  I had no idea he was controversial.  

Find a new counselor. 

[nausicaa]

5 minutes ago, VVV said:

You're still assuming that JP is correct about how the majority of women feel. That's an astonishing statement and requires proof. I'm not offended; I'm just flabbergasted that such assumptions are still being treated as fact.

There are several surveys that show women ranking family in importance above career at a greater rate than men. Again, obviously not all women.

(BTW, necessary disclaimer: I'm saying all of this as a 35 year old single, feminist, career woman with no children, and I don't give a single shit if a mother with young children works full-time.)

Only one in five working moms, said having a full-time working mom with young children is ideal:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/women-more-often-choose-family-over-work/433029/

More working women would rather have flexible schedules than more money:

 https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/03/14/modern-parenthood-roles-of-moms-and-dads-converge-as-they-balance-work-and-family/

I think Peterson, along with a lot of other people, overextend these results and are often dog whistling when referring to these surveys. I also understand that these women's beliefs don't come from a vacuum, and societal beliefs, pressures, and traditions are playing into this. But nevertheless, he isn't pulling these numbers out of thin air. 

[hoipolloi]

9 hours ago, onemama said:

why would I do that? 

Because you said those things here.

9 hours ago, onemama said:

You think very little of me, simply because I agree with some things said by somebody you disagree with.

I have no opinion of you, the person -- I only know you from your words here, which have consistently been very approving of Peterson and all he says.

 

[Sicily]

On 9/11/2019 at 12:46 PM, MamaJunebug said:

I don’t want to be morbid but it’s gnawing at me that Mr. Winton, may he rest in peace, deleted not just his estranged wife but also his children from his SM. This does not sound like the action of a person in a good emotional place. Not the details of his demise matter. He’s gone, too soon, too sadly soon. 

I guess what I’m trying to say is, I detest the fundamentalist, dominionist practice of micro-managing the sex lives of the younger generations. Some have said the Winton couple might have been pushed into marriage too quickly; certainly older Serven sisters Rebecca (now Loomis) and Elizabeth (Ten Dolle) appear to have kept at home for several years for the parents’ selfish (IMO) convenience. 

Cults stink.  

Yeah, something was really wrong. He went very quickly from posting lots of loving things about Sarah to deleting all trace of her, then all trace of their children. There was no public sign that things were starting to go awry before that. It was touching how sweet he was on her.

[bea]

Has someone set up a fundie divorce/separation post? Because FFS I cannot keep track.

[lexiloumarie]

On 9/13/2019 at 5:49 AM, Sicily said:

Yeah, something was really wrong. He went very quickly from posting lots of loving things about Sarah to deleting all trace of her, then all trace of their children. There was no public sign that things were starting to go awry before that. It was touching how sweet he was on her.

Just what I've been mulling- fundamentalism obviously doesn't leave any room for gray space in terms of mental health and....I can't right now think of the right words. Self-fulliment? Personal satisfaction? The ability to say this is what I need and I can't function without it in a relationship, familial or romantic or platonic.

And then the It gets better  movement (not speaking to sexuality but the concept as a whole) has not reached these young adults and kids, and I'm surprised it hasn't had tragic consequences sooner. We don't know exactly what caused the accident, but it sounds like this very young adult felt like it's either the perfect happy family or it's nothing, and that shaped his decision making after the separation. 

The board has talked about before how people leaving fundie churches tend to go extremely far the other direction and it makes sense. If in their eyes they've already lost their salvation, there isnt much holding them back. They don't see the gray spaces as normal, but as failures or impossible challenges and it becomes a why bother. It's yet another way parents completely fail their children in this world. 

They don't teach their kids the messy bits, where you have to regroup and pull yourself back up after something doesn't go as planned. It's all G-D ordained so it must be right. And it's all just a damn shame.