Seewalds 33: Schroedinger’s Uterus

[Glasgowghirl]

I don't see Jessa using the methods her parents used, though we can never be sure. Jessa can remember life before Jim Bob and Michelle started using Pearl's methods on her siblings, I just hope they all decide against blanket training and beating children. 

[singsingsing]

37 minutes ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

Well the most awful parts of her parents beliefs are how they raised and abused their children.  I don’t feel that she’s raising her kids the same way. I do still think she’s a conservative baptist in her beliefs, but I don’t think she’s quiverful or a fundamentalist in the way we talk about on this site. Maybe others will disagree with me, but I do believe there’s a difference between straight fundie and a southern baptist.

But I'm still curious as to what it is specifically about Jessa's social media presence that makes you think she's no longer quiverfull or a fundamentalist. She definitely seems to do certain things differently than her mother - but then again, we only met Michelle when she already had 15+ kids. Jessa only has two kids so far. The youngest is just over a year old.

So far I haven't heard her say anything that would contradict with a fundamentalist/quiverfull worldview. She is (at least publicly) still skirts-only. She regularly heaps praise on her parents (including a lot of praise for how they raised her). Prior to Henry's birth, she made comments that seemed to suggest she was wanting/expecting a lot of kids. She may have changed her mind since then, but if she has, she's stayed mum about it.

I totally agree that there's a difference between a fundie and a conservative Southern Baptist, but what is it in particular about Jessa that has you convinced that she's no longer a fundie?

[Illmarryyoujana]

14 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

But I'm still curious as to what it is specifically about Jessa's social media presence that makes you think she's no longer quiverfull or a fundamentalist. She definitely seems to do certain things differently than her mother - but then again, we only met Michelle when she already had 15+ kids. Jessa only has two kids so far. The youngest is just over a year old.

So far I haven't heard her say anything that would contradict with a fundamentalist/quiverfull worldview. She is (at least publicly) still skirts-only. She regularly heaps praise on her parents (including a lot of praise for how they raised her). Prior to Henry's birth, she made comments that seemed to suggest she was wanting/expecting a lot of kids. She may have changed her mind since then, but if she has, she's stayed mum about it.

I totally agree that there's a difference between a fundie and a conservative Southern Baptist, but what is it in particular about Jessa that has you convinced that she's no longer a fundie?

I don’t think you’ve given me reasons to believe she is still fundamentalist either. Having a large family and wearing skirts doesn’t make you one. She can praise her parents and still not follow movement. I’ve explained my reasons as to why I don’t think she’s following the quiverful movement any longer, and being that my original point was that she’s no longer a cult member,  we may just have to agree to disagree here. Edited to add, even if she’s still fundementalist in her beliefs, I don’t think she’s living quiverful which is the actual cult I was speaking of.

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

1 hour ago, neurogirl said:

I promise I'm not becoming a Seewald leghumper, but in this picture Ben is giving me desires that cannot be righteously fulfilled. 

The 3rd picture on that post made me LOL  Henry looks like he's trying to lift off.

[Seculardaisy]

6 hours ago, MadameOvary said:

Well, there are two parents. Ben seems like a reasonably hands-on dad. What do we know about how he was brought up? Maybe he's not into whacking his kids and Jessa is happy to follow her "headship" by loving these sweet little ones and striving to meet their individual needs.

I would just like to remind everyone of the episode where Jessa was busy somewhere and Ben took Spurgeon to the park. A big deal was made of Ben having Spurgeon by himself and in his talkinghead Ben said “I don’t think I’ll ever watch Spurgeon without Jessa around again.” Or something like that.

Ben is not really not so different than other fundie men at all.

[Carm_88]

55 minutes ago, Seculardaisy said:

Ben is not really not so different than other fundie men at all.

They did that again, when Jessa was doing stuff for Joy's wedding. It showed Ben going back and forth between Spurgeon on the playground and Henry in the stroller. They made it seem like Ben had no idea what he was doing. Ben is the oldest boy in his family, he may not have been taking care of his siblings the way Jessa was, but I doubt that he doesn't have a clue about amusing two boys. 

It just seemed overly forced and awkward. 

[Seculardaisy]

48 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

They did that again, when Jessa was doing stuff for Joy's wedding. It showed Ben going back and forth between Spurgeon on the playground and Henry in the stroller. They made it seem like Ben had no idea what he was doing. Ben is the oldest boy in his family, he may not have been taking care of his siblings the way Jessa was, but I doubt that he doesn't have a clue about amusing two boys. 

It just seemed overly forced and awkward. 

That might be the episode I’m talking about. I can’t remember the details. I just remember Ben’s sexist, garbage comment about not watching his son without Jessa again. 

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

1 hour ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

I don’t think you’ve given me reasons to believe she is still fundamentalist either. Having a large family and wearing skirts doesn’t make you one. She can praise her parents and still not follow movement. I’ve explained my reasons as to why I don’t think she’s following the quiverful movement any longer, and being that my original point was that she’s no longer a cult member,  we may just have to agree to disagree here. Edited to add, even if she’s still fundementalist in her beliefs, I don’t think she’s living quiverful which is the actual cult I was speaking of.

She is still creationist. She is still women-in-the-home-not-the-workplace/women's-place-is-not-to-lead-men/women-are-responsible-for-modesty-and-for-not-distracting-men/women-should-not-do-masculine-things-and-vice-versa/etc. She is still of the sex-is-for-married-people-to-make-babies (she may not be have-as-many-as-possible true QF like her parents, but she IS pro-birth and would definitely not be ok with people having sex without wanting children). She is still anti-sodomites, as her bible would put it. She is going to homeschool, likely because she wants to isolate her children from the secular world with differing beliefs.

We have not seen evidence of Jessa ever questioning any of these beliefs, she likely never will, and she will likely pass them on to her children. She and Ben may parent with gentler hands, and show more concern for her kids' happiness, health, and safety (good freaking lord...) than her parents ever did - but that doesn't mean she is not a fundamentalist christian.

[VelociRapture]

3 minutes ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

She is still creationist. She is still women-in-the-home-not-the-workplace/women's-place-is-not-to-lead-men/women-are-responsible-for-modesty-and-for-not-distracting-men/etc. She is still of the sex-is-for-married-people-to-make-babies (she may not be have-as-many-as-possible true QF like her parents, but she IS pro-birth and would definitely not be ok with people having sex without wanting children). She is still anti-sodomites, as her bible would put it. 

One important addition: she is likely more than happy to vote in politicians who will legislate her religious beliefs into law.

 

1 hour ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

I don’t think you’ve given me reasons to believe she is still fundamentalist either. Having a large family and wearing skirts doesn’t make you one. She can praise her parents and still not follow movement. I’ve explained my reasons as to why I don’t think she’s following the quiverful movement any longer, and being that my original point was that she’s no longer a cult member,  we may just have to agree to disagree here. Edited to add, even if she’s still fundementalist in her beliefs, I don’t think she’s living quiverful which is the actual cult I was speaking of.

What about IBLP? That was the cult I was thinking of and you can be IBLP without necessarily being Quiverful too. 

[Daisy0322]

@ihaveanexamintwodays very valid points however, may I point out that changes many times happen over generations. If she's taking steps in a more accepting and loving direction, I can support that even if it's not everything I agree with. Her boys will be better off than she was, hopefully their children will be even better than that. It's a marathon not a race sometimes. I know many people will probably disagree with me but I believe small victories can win a war eventually.

[EmmieJ]

On 6/8/2018 at 12:55 PM, patsymae said:

"Maybe. Even a minor in a loving home can feel fear or shame, or exercise poor judgement when faced with a pregnancy and possib le abortion decision. Teens are not always known for their good judgement."

 

Studies (no, I don't have them at my fingertips but I've worked in family planning clinics) show that those teens who feel they can confide in their parents do so. 

Second, in every state a minor can enter into a legally binding contract to surrender a living child for adoption without parental permission. If they can legally terminate their parental rights for the benefit of the adoption industry, then IMO they should be legally able to terminate their pregnancy for their own benefit.

Those of you who know me by my posts may also know that I have spoken about how I was raised and that I had a good, loving, trusting relationship with my parents.  But at age 17, I thought I was pregnant.  I told one single person, my boyfriend.  He drove me to our local Planned Parenthood for a pregnancy test.  This was late 70's, so no home tests were on the market.  Thankfully, no damned protesters were around then either, so I was able to go in unmolested by such assholes.  I loved my mother, we were very close, but the last thing I wanted to do was tell her I was or might be pregnant.  Turns out, I was just late.  I never told her about this episode.  I believe it's important to allow our teens privacy in certain areas, and this is one.

[singsingsing]

2 hours ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

I don’t think you’ve given me reasons to believe she is still fundamentalist either. Having a large family and wearing skirts doesn’t make you one. She can praise her parents and still not follow movement. I’ve explained my reasons as to why I don’t think she’s following the quiverful movement any longer, and being that my original point was that she’s no longer a cult member,  we may just have to agree to disagree here. Edited to add, even if she’s still fundementalist in her beliefs, I don’t think she’s living quiverful which is the actual cult I was speaking of.

I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record here, but I genuinely want to know what it is, specifically, that makes you think she's not a fundamentalist. She was in the very recent past, so our default mode should be to continue to assume that she still is one unless we see evidence to the contrary. So what evidence have you seen that's led you to believe that she's no longer fundie? I'm sorry if I missed something, but the only reasons you've given are that, based on her social media, it seems to you that she's not raising her children like her parents raised her. That's a fairly vague statement and it still tells me nothing about why she's not a fundamentalist/quiverfull. 

I feel like we could probably have a great discussion about whether or not Jessa still qualifies as fundie, and why or why not. We've had similar discussions about other fundies. Discussing fundamentalism is the whole point of this board! It's just not much of a discussion if you make a claim like "Jessa's not a fundie," I say, "Why not?" and you reply, "We'll agree to disagree." Totally up to you, though - no one's forcing you to share! (I don't want to sound like I'm hounding you!  I'm sure someone else is willing to take the 'Jessa's not a fundie' position if people are interested in continuing the discussion.)

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

They did that again, when Jessa was doing stuff for Joy's wedding. It showed Ben going back and forth between Spurgeon on the playground and Henry in the stroller. They made it seem like Ben had no idea what he was doing. Ben is the oldest boy in his family, he may not have been taking care of his siblings the way Jessa was, but I doubt that he doesn't have a clue about amusing two boys. 

It just seemed overly forced and awkward. 

I'm guessing bumbling daddy Ben is the same as Jill, Jessa,  Jinger & Joy trying to look like they can't cook.  All for the "entertainment" value. 

[lumpentheologie]

29 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

our default mode should be to continue to assume that she still is one unless we see evidence to the contrary

I think this is your primary source of disagreement with @Illmarryyoujana, if that helps.  And while I tend to assume fundie until shown otherwise, I think that's more a matter of personal preference because I'm pessimistic, and I've been disappointed before.  It's totally possible that many of the second generation kids have quietly changed their beliefs. I don't think we can really know what their beliefs are if they haven't spoken about them recently or done something that clearly indicates them. There are reasons it might be more or less compelling to assume certain things about their beliefs, but we can't know.  

Some people have, in the past, made the argument that even if their beliefs have changed they're still spreading a pernicious message and profiting off of it, so we can condemn them anyway.  And I think that's true, but it still doesn't tell us what they actually believe. 

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, lumpentheologie said:

I think this is your primary source of disagreement with @Illmarryyoujana, if that helps.

It's currently my only source of disagreement with her, because it's the only claim she's made. I wish she would give me other things to disagree with. Then maybe we could have an actual discussion! 

2 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

And while I tend to assume fundie until shown otherwise, I think that's more a matter of personal preference because I'm pessimistic, and I've been disappointed before.  It's totally possible that many of the second generation kids have quietly changed their beliefs. I don't think we can really know what their beliefs are if they haven't spoken about them recently or done something that clearly indicates them. There are reasons it might be more or less compelling to assume certain things about their beliefs, but we can't know.  

Some people have, in the past, made the argument that even if their beliefs have changed they're still spreading a pernicious message and profiting off of it, so we can condemn them anyway.  And I think that's true, but it still doesn't tell us what they actually believe. 

I think we have to assume that they're still fundamentalists until they give us reason to think otherwise. Several of them have given us reasons to think that they may no longer be fundie (or are at least moving away from it). Jill wearing pants and getting her nose pierced. Jinger wearing pants and waiting a year before getting pregnant. Etc. etc. None of it (so far) actually tells us that they're no longer fundie, but it at least provides fuel for discussion. I'd argue that Jessa is actually one of married kids who's shown the least movement away from fundamentalism. So far.

I know we often have discussions about what it actually means to be a fundamentalist. It's a really vague line and I think everyone's going to have a slightly different definition. I also think it's important to keep in mind that having dangerous beliefs, spreading hate, campaigning for unjust causes and so on are not attributes unique to fundies. Those things apply to thousands of conservative evangelicals too. For me, the difference between fundamentalism and politically active conservative evangelicalism is like the difference between Ebola and Influenza. Ebola is a lot more severe and a lot more outwardly terrifying, but it's relatively rare. Influenza is common and much less severe than Ebola, and people just kind of shrug it off, but it's also dangerous, hurts a lot of people, and spreads a lot more than Ebola.

[Daisy0322]

2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

 I'd argue that Jessa is actually one of married kids who's shown the least movement away from fundamentalism. So far.

Eh i respect that opinion but I got say Jill and especially joy seem more entrenched. Jill and her weird  children's books and Derek's very verbal beliefs and joy because Austins family's camp is still espousing the pearls by supporting their conferences 

[singsingsing]

10 minutes ago, Daisy0322 said:

Eh i respect that opinion but I got say Jill and especially joy seem more entrenched. Jill and her weird  children's books and Derek's very verbal beliefs and joy because Austins family's camp is still espousing the pearls by supporting their conferences 

But what about Jill's pants and nose ring? The suspiciously perfect gap between Izzy and Sam (they either prevented or just happened to randomly not get pregnant again until the doctor-recommended amount of time after the C-section)?  Derick's expressing beliefs that are common to most conservative evangelicals, not just fundies. Also, I said that Jessa was 'one of' the married kids who's shown the least movement, because I had Joy and Joe specifically in mind as others who haven't shown much if any movement either.

(Also, I'm just throwing out random things that could be used as evidence for movement away from fundamentalism. I personally don't know if Jill and Derick are still fundie or not. Like I really, honest to god have no idea. They're definitely still very conservative. They may well still be fundie. I think it's going to take some time to get a better idea - for all of them.)

[Coconut Flan]

Carry on here: