Seewalds 33: Schroedinger’s Uterus

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Alicja said:

If any of the Duggar children "break away" or at least become more liberal in their beliefs, I think it'll be Jessa and Ben. They've seemed to mellow out and calm down considerably since they were first married, and Ben seems to enjoy the more academic side of theology, leading me to believe they'll be likely to break away.

Then again, I don't actually know any of them. This is all based off my observations of their social media and my own intuition. 

I agree, I think it’s very likely Jessa will be conservative by most mainstream 2018 standards, because that’s her personality. Ben will likely inch closer to this decade. She’ll MAYBE hit popular opinion circa 2010 re LGBT type issues. People need to remember - marriage equality only hit 50% approval in the US in 2013 ish. Both Barack Obama (2012 ) and Hillary Clinton (2014 ) were pubblically opposed until quite late. MANY people are anti-abortion in all but limited circumstances. They may very well hold firm on that - or not. They may be ok with most birth control - either for themselves, or not caring if others use it. There are lots of ways to space pregnancies that don’t involve hormonal birth control - which many people can’t tolerate anyway. 

I think we sometimes expect a level of wokeness that just isn’t the norm - even in lefty Mc leftville where I live - people aren’t going to check off 100% pink hat progressive approved on every single issue.  And there is no reason they should.

If they can be anti-racist, and refrain from harassing and/or shunning everyone who makes slightly different choices, and don’t abuse their kids - they will be ahead of the curve. IMHO.

 

 

 

 

[Sky with diamonds]

4 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Jessa and Spurgeon look a bit alike.  

Wow! 

[Moogritt]

On 4/28/2018 at 7:13 AM, Sky with diamonds said:

Same here. I thought it was just me. I have balance issues, and if I didn't wear footwear, I think I'd be falling all over the place. 

That’s interesting! I have a lot of vestibular-based balance problems and I do way better barefoot!

[TatiFish9]

22 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I think we sometimes expect a level of wokeness that just isn’t the norm - even in lefty Mc leftville where I live - people aren’t going to check off 100% pink hat progressive approved on every single issue.  And there is no reason they should.

If they can be anti-racist, and refrain from harassing and/or shunning everyone who makes slightly different choices, and don’t abuse their kids - they will be ahead of the curve. IMHO.

 

 

 

 

Oh, you better preach.*throws unused hanky on Mama Mia*

 

I'm torn by this topic. These families are so deep in their belief systems and live in a geographical region where folks, regardless of their lifestyles tend veer faaaar right in their political stances, it is difficult to hope for their future change. Very few Christian denoms are open and affirming. I attending one for awhile that was. We received so much flack from other denominations it was disgusting. It is rare to find Christians ( and other major religions for that matter) who will support gay lifestyle. That is a bottom line and sad one.

However, we just don't know, thanks to tv contracts and brand obligations exactly what these kids truly believe on their own. Look at Joy who was brave enough to admit "her parent's religion" , but still follow many of their cultural beliefs. I refuse to follow anything she and Austin does online because their *open* politics make we want to vomit.

That said, Jessa is not my favorite Duggar ( not sure I have one at this point - maybe the dog? lol), but Ben has shown much promise. He is a thinker. He is not afraid to challenge social norms. To date, he is the only one from their ilk to openly address racial inequality inside of Christedom.  I'd like to think these two are together because they think alike. I dunno. 

I also know there are many people who hate the Duggars because of their bold stance on LGBTQ but never point out their racist undertones and could care less how their politics harm racial minorities all the while calling themselves Christians. What a joke.

This is a tough topic but there is always hope that (popular) fundies will break away. We can never lose hope.

 

 

[BernRul]

2 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

That said, Jessa is not my favorite Duggar ( not sure I have one at this point - maybe the dog? lol), but Ben has shown much promise. He is a thinker. He is not afraid to challenge social norms. To date, he is the only one from their ilk to openly address racial inequality inside of Christedom.  I'd like to think these two are together because they think alike. I dunno. 

I agree. I have a soft spot for Ben because of this, and because he didn't vote for Trump. One of the scary things about the past two years is how open racism has become (on the flipside the backlash against that has been inspiring), and how so many so-called Christains are willing to excuse or even endorse it. Ben at least seems aware of racial issues and willing to listen to people who come from different backgrounds. He seems genuine about helping people, unlike other Duggar husbands. Yeah, he may still have horrible beliefs in other areas, but he's young and has a lot of potential. 

[coffeebean7]

Ben totally surprised me. When he and Derrick first came on the scene (openly), I was betting on college-educated Derrick to open up Jill’s mind a little. He seemed conservative but not so crazy or sheltered. Now Derrick has actually gone crazy (but doesn’t see it), and Ben seems more progressive. Who would have thought! Still pretty crazy in some ways but overall a better outcome ...

[TatiFish9]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

 [···]

Yeah, he may still have horrible beliefs in other areas, but he's young and has a lot of potential. 

I agree with everything you've said, but this especially. I think young adults need a transitional period where they are forced to reflect on whether the world is as their parents saw/see it. This usually occurs when they are removed from their roots for a significant amount of time. Due to financial dependence and other ball & chains, these kidults haven't experienced such. Therefore their growth will be slow but not impossible.

 

[Mama Mia]

Very good point about the importance of their region TatiFish.

People, in general, tend to go along with what those around them believe, more or less. 

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

7 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

I think young adults need a transitional period where they are forced to reflect on whether the world is as their parents saw/see it. This usually occurs when they are removed from their roots for a significant amount of time.

I think this is a great idea, but how in the world would this happen? If *someone* deems a person's parents to be fundie/atheist/racist/nudist/anythingbad/anythinggood, do they appoint an intervenor or kidnap them and FORCE these young adults to "reflect" on their upbringing?

[SilverBeach]

11 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Very few Christian denoms are open and affirming. I attending one for awhile that was. We received so much flack from other denominations it was disgusting. It is rare to find Christians ( and other major religions for that matter) who will support gay lifestyle. That is a bottom line and sad one.

It is very sad. If I may ask, why did you stop attending the open and affirming church? I'm a Christ follower and I will likely leave my church over this. The denomination almost split over gay marriage and in the end came down on the side against being open and affirming, and I can't support this exclusionary and discriminatory policy. The root of the rejection of non-heterosexual people is the belief that God did not make them this way and they are choosing to "sin" by living this "lifestyle". But people are born the way they are, it's not about a lifestyle. Closed churches also say that if non-heteros would just choose to live without love and intimacy like the heteros are entitled to have, they can fully participate in the congregation. This is cruel and inhuman and just plain wrong. The desire for love and companionship and sexual expression is innately human and to deny non-heterosexuals these things is to deny their humanity. To do this is to go against the commandment of Jesus himself to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. 

I am heterosexual but I feel strongly that this is a justice issue. Just like some whites stood up during the civil rights era, hetero Christians have to stand up for our non-hetero brothers and sisters. I have not endeared myself to the church leadership by expressing what I have posted here to them, but so be it. Right is right.

[Bad Wolf]

We celebrate same sex weddings at our church. A few parishioners have a hard time with it, so they don't attend. Most of us don't have an issue. I've mentioned before, we had a wedding between 2 men who'd been together 40 years. The care and love they show for each other are an example for us all.

[candygirl200413]

Switching churches this year was the best thing I've done this year. My previous church is non-denominational evangelicalism which really never made sense for us since my family has always leaned more open affirminity for a lot of things. Then orange fuck face won and I knew that I couldn't keep going. I tried this progressive church legitimately down the street from my house and it's been amazing! A learning curve since it's Episcopalian but love it nonetheless.

[Alicja]

On 4/28/2018 at 9:04 PM, Mama Mia said:

I agree, I think it’s very likely Jessa will be conservative by most mainstream 2018 standards, because that’s her personality. Ben will likely inch closer to this decade. She’ll MAYBE hit popular opinion circa 2010 re LGBT type issues. People need to remember - marriage equality only hit 50% approval in the US in 2013 ish. Both Barack Obama (2012 ) and Hillary Clinton (2014 ) were pubblically opposed until quite late. MANY people are anti-abortion in all but limited circumstances. They may very well hold firm on that - or not. They may be ok with most birth control - either for themselves, or not caring if others use it. There are lots of ways to space pregnancies that don’t involve hormonal birth control - which many people can’t tolerate anyway. 

I think we sometimes expect a level of wokeness that just isn’t the norm - even in lefty Mc leftville where I live - people aren’t going to check off 100% pink hat progressive approved on every single issue.  And there is no reason they should.

If they can be anti-racist, and refrain from harassing and/or shunning everyone who makes slightly different choices, and don’t abuse their kids - they will be ahead of the curve. IMHO.

 

 

 

 

Hard agree. When you've been raised in a fundamentalist household, it's going to take time to challenge and change those beliefs. Suddenly having open internet access and freedom to do pretty much whatever you want isn't going to turn you into a Marxist overnight. 

Ben being able to earnestly listen to a black man on racism within Christianity and ask "what can I do to help?" demonstrated that he has far more compassion than even most liberals. Just goes to show what actually reading and studying theology can do for you, rather than blindly following the words of one man. Still wish he'd actually read the Cathechism tho.

[BernRul]

12 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I think this is a great idea, but how in the world would this happen? If *someone* deems a person's parents to be fundie/atheist/racist/nudist/anythingbad/anythinggood, do they appoint an intervenor or kidnap them and FORCE these young adults to "reflect" on their upbringing?

I think by "forced to reflect" the poster meant that natural experience forces people to confront beliefs that they had once taken for granted. Usually, in well adjusted families, this happens in high school/college/early adulthood. Interacting with people of different situations (which usually happens when a child grows up and is no longer so dependent on his/her family) causes people to become more open minded, and less likely to make sweeping generalizations about entire groups of people or blindly accept what they may have once unquestionably believed. 

At least, that's how I interpreted that comment. 

20 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

I agree with everything you've said, but this especially. I think young adults need a transitional period where they are forced to reflect on whether the world is as their parents saw/see it. This usually occurs when they are removed from their roots for a significant amount of time. Due to financial dependence and other ball & chains, these kidults haven't experienced such. Therefore their growth will be slow but not impossible.

 

Even though he's married with two kids, Ben is still so young. Most guys his age are in college, discovering the people they want to be. I have hope that Ben can continue to nurture his compassionate side, because that will help both him and his family. 

[TatiFish9]

13 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I think this is a great idea, but how in the world would this happen? If *someone* deems a person's parents to be fundie/atheist/racist/nudist/anythingbad/anythinggood, do they appoint an intervenor or kidnap them and FORCE these young adults to "reflect" on their upbringing?

Life has a way of punching us all in the face once in awhile. Usually crises of faith help people to reflect. No one can convince me that every 2nd gen Duggar came out of the Josh scandal believing in their "parent's faith" exactly as they did before. 

I also think personality plays a huge role, too. Some people can never leave home but experience meaningful shifts from random events like reading a life changing book or meeting an interesting person from a different background etc. right at home. Others can go to the edges of the earth and come back the same way they were before.

This is such a complex topic about perspectives shift. People rarely experience a total world view shift. Doing so usually causes extential crises that can lead to psychological damage. I agree with whomever said the most we can hope for is a coexist attitude from the likes of the Duggars . 

[viii]

Super random but in my Facebook memories, my old fundie crush’s post came up. He had done an “about me” quiz and one of the questions was baby names and his top two boy names were Hudson and Spurgeon. 

I completely forgot about this until today. If things had worked out and I had married him (dodged that bullet!) - I’d have a son named Spurgeon. 

[AliceInFundyland]

 I will compare every child’s name till the end of time with Spurgeon.

[PainfullyAware]

I've been thinking a lot about how to cook* with people who have different political, cultural and economic views then I do.

*That was supposed to say coexist not cook but maybe autocorrect answered my existential crisis LOL

But in all seriousness I think that my answer comes from the fundies' second most favorite document - the Constitution. Ultimately we can only ever all agree on respecting each other's rights to freedom of expression, belief, and association. Of course we can campaign, and march and write and speak up to try to raise awareness about what we believe but we're never going to convince everyone to agree with us.

If a fundie conservative could support my right to believe what I want, even if that means being pro-choice and supporting marriage equality, then I can't ask anymore of them.  They don't need to agree with me and and can try to persuade people to their way of thinking through social action (marching, writing, preaching, what have you) -but stop trying to criminalize other points of view by aiming to ban abortion, same sex marriage, jailing addicts, and black men, etc. Live and let live! I have some hope Ben and Jessa might get there.

 

[Carm_88]

11 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

 I will compare every child’s name till the end of time with Spurgeon.

I will always say "At least it's not Heistheway! 

[Knight of Ni]

For the longest time I thought people on here were joking about Heistheway. I was sad to learn that I wasn’t. 

[TeaELSee]

5 minutes ago, Knight of Ni said:

For the longest time I thought people on here were joking about Heistheway. I was sad to learn that I wasn’t. 

I thought it was a joke too! Is it pronounced he is the way? In my head it always reads Heist away.

is there a nickname?  I have too many questions!

[ModestisHottest]

If anyone is looking for a book that addresses homosexuality in the Bible from an evangelical perspective I highly recommend God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines!! Give it to your conservative families, friends etc! It talks about each part of the Bible that people use to support a case against homosexuality and explains what it actually means taking historical context into account. 

[Fun Undies]

On 4/30/2018 at 2:21 AM, Mama Mia said:

Very good point about the importance of their region TatiFish.

People, in general, tend to go along with what those around them believe, more or less. 

 

I think this is why it's so important to get to know people of different backgrounds, cultures, religions, etc. from a young age, and a BIG reason we are part of a Unitarian Universalist church (the RE program for the littles is phenomenal!).  I've seen so many people who have no idea how big the world really is, until they leave home, and some really flounder in life for years, until they figure out their "place" in it.  

On 4/30/2018 at 7:25 AM, SilverBeach said:

It is very sad. If I may ask, why did you stop attending the open and affirming church? I'm a Christ follower and I will likely leave my church over this. -snip- I am heterosexual but I feel strongly that this is a justice issue. Just like some whites stood up during the civil rights era, hetero Christians have to stand up for our non-hetero brothers and sisters. I have not endeared myself to the church leadership by expressing what I have posted here to them, but so be it. Right is right.

I've been attending a UU church for seven years now, and I can't recommend it enough as an interfaith, welcoming community
But I definitely can admit I was still missing something, and actually only recently (six months ago), returned to the Catholic faith of my youth (now I go to both).  It's just something that speaks to my soul, while the UU church really helps me understand so much about the world at large (not just reading about other cultures, etc.)

Here's a fantastic quote I recently reblogged on my tumblr, for someone who contemplated returning/joining a denomination that still is anti LGBTQ+, but still has a deep impact on their faith: http://petersock.tumblr.com/post/172157494358/ok-so-im-also-considering-converting-to (it honestly just explains it better, than I probably ever could!)

Sidenote: I actually shared with one of the priests during an initial meeting, that that was something I would never be able to agree with.  That I have even voted on the civil rights of gay marriage (came up in the November 2012 elections in MN- which I can't believe some people in 2012 still can decide, if two people who love each other, can get married - blargh!).  And even if I did come back to the church (I was born into it), that I will always, when given the opportunity, support gay marriage, and the civil rights of all . . . hand to God: he didn't call me a heretic, or insist that I can only come back if I agree with every tenet of the faith.  Nothing.  He shared what the Catholic church teaches about it, but the way he kinda rattled it off, seemed more like he was reading from a script, versus actually agreeing with it.  And to this day, I kinda just want to ask him point blank if he secretly thinks one day it could change - I hope so!

Anyways, the final comment would be, that unfortunately every denomination is going to be flawed in some way or another.  You should absolutely find a place that you are comfortable in, but unfortunately we bring our own humanity to God's religion, and sometimes the only thing Christians can agree on, is Jesus is the Son of God (hence, why there's like 40k denominations).  Whatever you do, whether you stay, or find something different, I hope the transition isn't too hard and you find a place that inspires your soul from the inside out <3

11 minutes ago, ModestisHottest said:

If anyone is looking for a book that addresses homosexuality in the Bible from an evangelical perspective I highly recommend God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines!! Give it to your conservative families, friends etc! It talks about each part of the Bible that people use to support a case against homosexuality and explains what it actually means taking historical context into account. 

Thank you!  I'll add this book to my list   Honestly, the historical context of the Bible only helps in the arguments FOR LGBTQ+ rights, not against it, but always love yet another book to source

[ModestisHottest]

Yes, totally agreed! And this book definitely helps those arguments for LGBTQ+ rights too.   I found it interesting because it's written by someone who is both gay and a Bible literalist and his pro-LGBTQ+ Biblical arguments are really fascinating!

[CorruptionInc.]

4 hours ago, ModestisHottest said:

If anyone is looking for a book that addresses homosexuality in the Bible from an evangelical perspective I highly recommend God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines!! Give it to your conservative families, friends etc! It talks about each part of the Bible that people use to support a case against homosexuality and explains what it actually means taking historical context into account. 

I believe I need to read this book!

I am very in to fighting for LGBTQIA + rights and this sounds like an insightful read. 

Thanks for the recommendation!