IBLP Calls Cops on Bill Gothard for Trespass

[Maxwell]

2 hours ago, Frank Castle said:

Long time lurker, first time poster. Reading Marionette's posts in this thread convinced me to start posting. Anyhow, I'm very well informed as to what has been going on 2014-2017, and I still am in contact with lots of people in the IBLP circles. Feel free to ask me questions. If I should be posting this somewhere else just let me know...

Ummm... if you wouldn't mind just putting an asterisk on your post and noting that BillG didn't refuse to leave & that they agreed to discuss it after the meeting... it's very important.  Thanks.

[luv2laugh]

 

The video contains all audio with officers as well. I watched entire video and you can hear it very well after the first couple minutes.

Can someone explain why the board won’t allow Gothard back?

@Frank Castle

[formergothardite]

@Frank Castle, how popular are the Bates and Duggars in IBLP? Do people ever think about the long term(and short term) consequences to selling their children's childhoods on television? The Bates essentially rebranded themselves on social media to remove traces of IBLP, does anyone question that? Are people really supportive of how the Duggars handled the Josh molestation issue? 

[Howl]

Clear audio starts at 9:48, where there is dialog between Gothard and the policeman. Gothard clearly doesn't believe he was asked to leave or that he was trespassing and the policeman's understanding is that he was clearly asked to leave.  Gothard starts arguing with the policeman, who doesn't back down. 

[Frank Castle]

34 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

@Frank Castle, how popular are the Bates and Duggars in IBLP? Do people ever think about the long term(and short term) consequences to selling their children's childhoods on television? The Bates essentially rebranded themselves on social media to remove traces of IBLP, does anyone question that? Are people really supportive of how the Duggars handled the Josh molestation issue? 

Honestly, they aren't that popular. Sure, there is some "celebrity status" but most people don't really care. The majority of people I know question the whole "live your life on TV" bit.... 

My take is that most people are too busy raising their own kids to really give a darn about the Duggars/Bates. It's mostly the old school IBLP crowd who remembers the "glory days" of ole Big G that are really into them. 

TBH, I don't know. I think  it's more of a don't ask, don't tell, lets all pretend it never happened, thank God it wasn't my relative type approach. At the grassroots level I would say that it did make people a lot more cautious about just blindly walking into ATI/IBLP/blind trust of some charismatic leader.... 

 

EDIT

If any of you have seen the Mark Walburgh movie "Shooter" there is a scene where he says "Nobody out here is innocent! This stuff's plutonium. Nobody can handle it without dying. You hand it over to the authorities, it's just gonna disappear, along with us! Unless you want to get buried in the hills outside Terlingua." 

I wouldn't say that everyone on the board or high up in IBLP knows everything that went on, but my guess is that they know more than they will admit. In this case, not-so-slick Willie is the plutonium so they just needed him to disappear before people start asking questions/ get super pissed off that he's back. (There were lot of people who were NOT happy about him attending the session that night,) 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

Gothard clearly doesn't believe he was asked to leave or that he was trespassing and the policeman's understanding is that he was clearly asked to leave.  Gothard starts arguing with the policeman, who doesn't back down. 

I wonder if it is dementia or just him not being able to accept he has found a situation he can't talk and manipulate himself out of. He won't accept that he was asked to leave and refused to do so. It is like he created an entirely different scenario in his head

@Frank Castle, thank you for answering. What is IBLP now? When I was in it during the 90's the entire thing was built around Gothard and his teachings. Are his teachings still a central part of ATI/IBLP? If so, has anyone questioned why they are using the teachings of a guy who apparently is so bad he can't be allowed on the properties? Aside from all the abuse stories, there are plenty of stories about how the teachings of IBLP/ATI really screwed people up, is that discussed any? The majority of people raised with the teachings of IBLP/ATI, grow up to not continue the program with their own children, is that seen as any sort of a warning sign? 

1 hour ago, Frank Castle said:

I wouldn't say that everyone on the board or high up in IBLP knows everything that went on, but my guess is that they know more than they will admit.

IMO, most of them knew almost everything. Gothard didn't exactly keep his desire for skinny, pretty teen girls a secret. The first time I met Gothard he shook my hand but didn't look at me because he was looking at the pretty teen girl behind me. The teen girl that I later found out got all sorts of privileges and was invited back to be in a leadership position and then to work at the headquarters near Gothard. There was nothing special about her except her looks and every single one of the people leading at the Dallas training center knew that Gothard had her given special treatment and none of them said a thing. 

The rumors about Gothard didn't pop up with RG, they were there the whole time. 

[Palimpsest]

That police officer has the patience of a saint.

24 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I wonder if it is dementia or just him not being able to accept he has found a situation he can't talk and manipulate himself out of. He won't accept that he was asked to leave and refused to do so. It is like he created an entirely different scenario in his head

I suspect this.  He sounds a lot more obstinate than he does confused, and a lot more manipulative than he does distressed.  He was promised a meeting, dammit.  He didn't anticipate that the meeting was for the purpose of asking him to leave the property and have his refusal to do so witnessed by a police officer.  And an officer of the law who wasn't going to be bullied.

I hope Gothard does take legal action against the board.  Not because he is entitled to be back as president of IBLP, but because a lawsuit would get all the dirty laundry hung out on the line.

Thanks for answering our questions, @Frank Castle.

1 hour ago, Frank Castle said:

TBH, I don't know. I think  it's more of a don't ask, don't tell, lets all pretend it never happened, thank God it wasn't my relative type approach. At the grassroots level I would say that it did make people a lot more cautious about just blindly walking into ATI/IBLP/blind trust of some charismatic leader.... 

So, do you think the don't ask, don't tell attitude is healthy?  At the grassroots (or rank and file) level does anyone want BG back?  Do they think the current board made the right decision to oust him?  Do they feel sorry for him?

Also what do they think of:

• the current leadership and BoD (Levendusky, Paine and Bates)?
• the apparent attempts at rebranding IBLP and loosening of some of the rules (as in clothing)?
• the younger people on the upwards track (David Waller and Gabe Cleator's peers)?

And have you ever heard of the mysterious Pastor David York?

Thanks in advance!

[Maxwell]

17 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

@Frank CastleI wonder if it is dementia or just him not being able to accept he has found a situation he can't talk and manipulate himself out of. He won't accept that he was asked to leave and refused to do so. It is like he created an entirely different scenario in his head

 

My take is that it's the latter... there's this umbrella of authority and he's always been the umbrella itself but... uhhh... there's now guy with handcuffs, a gun and a badge (that doesn't say ALERT) that is now an umbrella over HIM -- he's never had to deal with THAT before -- and he's trying, desperately, to manipulate the situation.

 

I don't think he had an entirely different scenario in his head -- I think he may be right, that they said they would discuss things afterwards -- but then the officer showed up and BillG stated (or, very possibly, misstated) that he was asked to leave.  As far as the Officer is concerned, THAT is the truth and everything else is hearsay and can not be included in his officer notes... not even with an asterisk at the bottom.  I noticed that the Officer stated, rather firmly at that point, that he would not note it as he could not testify to it's accuracy in court.

 

Don't know a thing about the "Personal Assistant" but his reaction at the end hit home with me and I felt badly for him.  I've been that position where I've felt the need to apologize for the actions of the person I was with and make an effort to let those involved know that I was on THEIR side but still had to deal with the person in question.

[formergothardite]

Anyone know who the woman who shows up around the 15 min. mark making a video of the police car? 

17 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

He sounds a lot more obstinate than he does confused, and a lot more manipulative than he does distressed.  He was promised a meeting, dammit.  He didn't anticipate that the meeting was for the purpose of asking him to leave the property and have his refusal to do so witnessed by a police officer.  And an officer of the law who wasn't going to be bullied.

He does sound on the angry side at some points. He asked if the officer had attended ALERT, probably because he was trying to find a way to get at him for manipulation.

 

[Maxwell]

just watching/listening again.  The following conversation occurs between Doug Horsman an ex-Navy guy and the head of ALERT (Probably in Uniform & possibly carrying as weapon) & the officer:

 

Officer: "... Who is going to be the one... that's filling this?  Is it going to be you?"

DH: "It'll be myself."

Officer: "Do you have your divers license on you?

DH: "Uhhh... I don't..."

 

Really?  Somehow I don't buy that.

[Marionette]

13 hours ago, Frank Castle said:

Long time lurker, first time poster. Reading Marionette's posts in this thread convinced me to start posting. Anyhow, I'm very well informed as to what has been going on 2014-2017, and I still am in contact with lots of people in the IBLP circles. Feel free to ask me questions. If I should be posting this somewhere else just let me know...

I have a source who was at the conference and saw Big G.  There were not "hundreds of people" coming up to thank him or anything like that... 

Awesome! Hopefully you can answer some questions that I wasn't able to... Some of you all had more questions than I anticipated, but it's okay!  I was not very involved, but I still attended a lot of IBLP events and know quite a few of the families. I still follow several ATI/IBLP individuals on Instagram, but I have not talked to several of them anytime recently, and I have not discussed this year's conference with anyone that was there. Haven't heard a mention of BG being there, either.

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Anyone know who the woman who shows up around the 15 min. mark making a video of the police car? 

It looked like Michelle Weiss. I believe I also saw her son Skyler walk in front of the car. Yes, the "hot Skyler" or whatever you all call him. Lol 

[luv2laugh]

@formergothardite Can you change the title of the thread to include the latest maybe like "IBLP calls cops on Bill Gothard for trespass at Big Sandy Conf"?  This way, maybe some other posters can chime in on the news since many are probably unaware. I'm really wondering what is going on. According to the video, Gothard was presenting papers to the Board to reinstate him or else he’ll bring a lawsuit of defamation of character with malice. All of these years, and I had no idea the Board is fighting with Gothard. I thought he'd be welcome with open arms. I am interested in finding out what kind of legal action could result from this and how IBLP could be affected.

I don't think Gothard will go down without a fight. In the video, he told the police officer something like "They said they are my authority, they aren't my authority. I founded this ministry 50 years ago."

If anyone can hear better than me, the first few minutes of the video are hard to hear but I can make it out a bit. He's talking to Dr. Paine and Gil Bates and the police officer is quietly outside the room. 

He said things like "Gil, you're in the public eye. You know I love your family..... something something. I don't want to have to do this but something something Defamation of character with malice"

[sableduck]

I can only imagine what the police officer was thinking.

We’ve had some ALERT graduates join the volunteer fire department I am a part of.  They really think they’re some super emergency responders...their training is abysmal but they’ve been told over and over and over how special and awesome they are because of penis.  As a married female with three children who works full time as a paramedic, it seems to blow their minds when I tell them what to do on an emergency scene.

[Palimpsest]

54 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

All of these years, and I had no idea the Board is fighting with Gothard.

Then you are so behind the curve that it is going to be very hard to catch you up.  And I'm surprised you are not a bit embarrassed to admit to your ignorance.

The breach between Bill Gothard and the present board has been going on since early 2014.  Most of the posters on this thread are very aware of the background.

Briefly,  Bill Gothard resigned as President of IBLP when massive allegations of sexual assault were put forward.  The present board chucked him out with prejudice.  And got control of IBLP.  Legally.

He's been trying to get back ever since.  And is apparently not much welcomed by the rank and file.  That is what we are discussing.

I seem to remember that you have problems following links, but there are several links upthread to the massive lawsuit.  Perhaps follow them and read.  Also here is the FJ archive on Bill Gothard for much more information: 

https://www.freejinger.org/forum/287-atiiblp-gothardism-bill-gothard/-

You could also just do a simple google search to get the basics.  

Bottom line - Bill Gothard is a Bad Man.  

[luv2laugh]

44 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Then you are so behind the curve that it is going to be very hard to catch you up.  And I'm surprised you are not a bit embarrassed to admit to your ignorance.

The breach between Bill Gothard and the present board has been going on since early 2014.  Most of the posters on this thread are very aware of the background.

Briefly,  Bill Gothard resigned as President of IBLP when massive allegations of sexual assault were put forward.  The present board chucked him out with prejudice.  And got control of IBLP.  Legally.

He's been trying to get back ever since.  And is apparently not much welcomed by the rank and file.  That is what we are discussing.

I seem to remember that you have problems following links, but there are several links upthread to the massive lawsuit.  Perhaps follow them and read.  Also here is the FJ archive on Bill Gothard for much more information: 

https://www.freejinger.org/forum/287-atiiblp-gothardism-bill-gothard/-

You could also just do a simple google search to get the basics.  

Bottom line - Bill Gothard is a Bad Man.  

@Palimpsest There’s no reason to treat me with such unkindness. I would never be embarrassed for asking a question nor would I shame someone else for doing so.

 Actually, I been following the legal issues with IBLP since 2014. However, I was unaware that the board of directors were fighting with Gothard. I was under the impression that they were still on good terms with Gothard while he was involved in the lawsuits and supported him.

 

How do we know for sure that the board has legal control over IBLP? Wouldn’t Gothard still be owner of some of the properties despite resigning?

[ViolaSebastian]

I thought it was very telling that Bill asked the officer if he attended ALERT. Trying to weasel his way out of this any way he could possibly could. 

[Frank Castle]

14 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I wonder if it is dementia or just him not being able to accept he has found a situation he can't talk and manipulate himself out of. He won't accept that he was asked to leave and refused to do so. It is like he created an entirely different scenario in his head

@Frank Castle, thank you for answering. What is IBLP now? When I was in it during the 90's the entire thing was built around Gothard and his teachings. Are his teachings still a central part of ATI/IBLP? If so, has anyone questioned why they are using the teachings of a guy who apparently is so bad he can't be allowed on the properties? Aside from all the abuse stories, there are plenty of stories about how the teachings of IBLP/ATI really screwed people up, is that discussed any? The majority of people raised with the teachings of IBLP/ATI, grow up to not continue the program with their own children, is that seen as any sort of a warning sign? 

IMO, most of them knew almost everything. Gothard didn't exactly keep his desire for skinny, pretty teen girls a secret. The first time I met Gothard he shook my hand but didn't look at me because he was looking at the pretty teen girl behind me. The teen girl that I later found out got all sorts of privileges and was invited back to be in a leadership position and then to work at the headquarters near Gothard. There was nothing special about her except her looks and every single one of the people leading at the Dallas training center knew that Gothard had her given special treatment and none of them said a thing. 

The rumors about Gothard didn't pop up with RG, they were there the whole time. 

First off, thank you for the response! I was not expecting this much, I'll do my best to answer y'all's questions as best and as soon as I can but I'm super busy these days....

Disclaimer: I am not going to try to defend or take sides in this, but I want to give y'all the clearest picture with as little bias as possible.  I only care about the truth and what is right. 

 

So a little background first, I only knew a bit about ATI/IBLP until 2014.  I came into the whole thing with no idea what was what and ever since I heard the first whispers about Big G, I've been gathering information with an open mind. Read the book "A Matter of Basic Principles" and that really shed light on a lot of things. I was mostly looking at everything from a theological standpoint initially but the abuse allegations caught my attention and so I started following that and it just kept growing from there.  I do not have the full picture and I am interested to learn more pieces of the puzzle from before my time (2014-2016) as well. Maybe if there are enough of us digging we can really piece everything together. I've seen similar type of things  on some Reddit subs....

 

Now to the question @formergothardite 

I don't know and I don't think they do either. All they really seem to have going is the Poison Journey, errr... I mean Prison Journey... and their various conferences. 

I think his teachings are still somewhat central, but they are definitely trying to evaluate everything from what my sources tell me.   

It looks to me like the current leadership thinks that the problem with IBLP is G screwing everything up by being a hypocrite and not following his own rules (3 times at last count) . They don't seem to realize that their theology is fundamentally flawed.... "Good" people, just they look at the world through a straw. 

14 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

That police officer has the patience of a saint.

I suspect this.  He sounds a lot more obstinate than he does confused, and a lot more manipulative than he does distressed.  He was promised a meeting, dammit.  He didn't anticipate that the meeting was for the purpose of asking him to leave the property and have his refusal to do so witnessed by a police officer.  And an officer of the law who wasn't going to be bullied.

I hope Gothard does take legal action against the board.  Not because he is entitled to be back as president of IBLP, but because a lawsuit would get all the dirty laundry hung out on the line.

Thanks for answering our questions, @Frank Castle.

So, do you think the don't ask, don't tell attitude is healthy?  At the grassroots (or rank and file) level does anyone want BG back?  Do they think the current board made the right decision to oust him?  Do they feel sorry for him?

Also what do they think of:

• the current leadership and BoD (Levendusky, Paine and Bates)?
• the apparent attempts at rebranding IBLP and loosening of some of the rules (as in clothing)?
• the younger people on the upwards track (David Waller and Gabe Cleator's peers)?

And have you ever heard of the mysterious Pastor David York?

Thanks in advance!

No I don't think it is healthy, but look at the type of people that are sucked into various cults. (IMHO, IBLP is a cult) Sure, there are lots of people in it who are "born again believers" but it matches the definition of a cult. So the reason that people like Big G, JB, Gil, etc... rise to the top is because they are confident and have "the cure fer what ails ya". Followers will always follow the leader, if the leader is somewhat reasonable and gives them something in return for whatever he takes. 

No, I don't think many people want him back. Maybe a few, but most of them have left IBLP I believe. 

Hell yes. Should have done it years ago. 

Maybe on a personal level, but not a business/ministry. The membership was already going way down before he left, they aren't going down with the ship, they are throwing Jonah overboard.

I'll get into the board, young people, and loosening of rules later....

Yes I have, when I was researching the BoD, I think there is some stuff about him on their website. 

[Frank Castle]

14 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Anyone know who the woman who shows up around the 15 min. mark making a video of the police car? 

 

From what I'm being told, she was someone with Big G's "group". He attended with more than just the one assistant. They might not have all come 'together' but there were a few people hovering around him in the session. Looked a little like a presidential protection detail, albeit older and less fit....  

I will try to get more info from those who witnessed that part. 

14 hours ago, Maxwell said:

just watching/listening again.  The following conversation occurs between Doug Horsman an ex-Navy guy and the head of ALERT (Probably in Uniform & possibly carrying as weapon) & the officer:

 

Officer: "... Who is going to be the one... that's filling this?  Is it going to be you?"

DH: "It'll be myself."

Officer: "Do you have your divers license on you?

DH: "Uhhh... I don't..."

 

Really?  Somehow I don't buy that.

Quite possible, although my guess is that he didn't want it recorded on the audio/video. DOB and address is pretty easy to come up with online, but I wouldn't want my licence number in the public domain. (He obviously knew it was being recorded) 

13 hours ago, Marionette said:

 

It looked like Michelle Weiss. I believe I also saw her son Skyler walk in front of the car. Yes, the "hot Skyler" or whatever you all call him. Lol 

I can see the resemblance, but I don't think that's her.

4 hours ago, sableduck said:

I can only imagine what the police officer was thinking.

We’ve had some ALERT graduates join the volunteer fire department I am a part of.  They really think they’re some super emergency responders...their training is abysmal but they’ve been told over and over and over how special and awesome they are because of penis.  As a married female with three children who works full time as a paramedic, it seems to blow their minds when I tell them what to do on an emergency scene.

I'm sorry to hear that. There are a lot of great ALERT guys and a lot of well...yeah.... 

The culture is not healthy there in regards to interacting with females, that is for certain... Can't speak to the training of the guys you are forced to put up with, but typically the guys who think that are all that, are the worst performers in training at ALERT. They believe the hype from officers who don't really know what's going on.

[Frank Castle]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 

Bottom line - Bill Gothard is a Bad Man.  

Not disagreeing, but can you prove that? 

Look at this whole last election in this country, lots of accusations and not a whole lot of proof of anything, yet. Until you can absolutely PROVE that Bill was malicious in his intentions, I really don't think this will go anywhere. Lots of indiscretions, with undeniable and unacceptable lifelong effects on so many people, but it looks very hard to prove from a legal standpoint. If I'm out of my lane or posting this in the wrong thread, feel free to delete/ set me straight.

[Frank Castle]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

However, I was unaware that the board of directors were fighting with Gothard. I was under the impression that they were still on good terms with Gothard while he was involved in the lawsuits and supported him.

 

How do we know for sure that the board has legal control over IBLP? Wouldn’t Gothard still be owner of some of the properties despite resigning?

To the best of my knowledge, they were supportive of Big G, until all of the allegations were too much evidence against him. One or two accusers, yeah sure they might just be mad/trying to get money/etc... but once there were as many women going public as there were, coupled with Bill's utter lack of discretion and frankly, sheer stupidity, in his interactions, they decided to cut and run for the hills. 

As far as knowing for sure who runs it, well this is the one time in your life you can thank the IRS for actually helping with something. Check the financials.

Straight from the google "Nonprofit corporations must submit their financial statements, which include the salaries of directors, officers and key employees to the IRS on Form 990 as mentioned above. Both the IRS and the nonprofit corporation are required to disclose the information they provide on Form 990 to the public."

 

If you want to learn more about how they make decisions/ will be making decisions, educate yourselves on non-profits, specifically 501c3's.

How do the board/s of a non-profit operate?

Who ultimately makes the decisions?

Remember that they have to abide by certain laws, work backwards from there....

Happy Hunting

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, Frank Castle said:

Not disagreeing, but can you prove that? 

We just have to look at his teachings. His teachings are bad. His teachings are dangerous. His teachings have caused a hell of a lot of people who grew up with them(including me) to end up in therapy trying to recover. Then we look at how he ran his training centers. They were not run in a way that a good person would run them. Teens worked long hours getting no education. His empire was built on the back of unpaid, uneducated teens. At the Dallas training center I met people who barely went home because Bill had convinced their parents that they needed to be shipped from training center to training center to work. Of course, parents were told there was time for school built in, but that didn't happen because the needs of the training center were more important than the needs of the teens. 

The fruit of Bill is a generation of people who despise him and say his teachings and treatment of students screwed them up. 

5 hours ago, Frank Castle said:

Look at this whole last election in this country, lots of accusations and not a whole lot of proof of anything, yet.

Yes, but we don't need the accusations to be proven to know that Trump is a bad human. There is a mountain of other evidence that is obvious to people who get their news from sources that aren't Fox.  

ETA: legally it will probably be difficult to prove Bill is a bad human, but it is fairly easy to see that he isn't a good person. For Trump, I think legally it would be fairly easy to prove him legally a bad person if the GOP would hold him accountable.  

[Palimpsest]

7 hours ago, Frank Castle said:

Not disagreeing, but can you prove that? 

I don't have to prove it in a court of law, my friend.

I only have to look at his teachings.  The victim shaming that permeates his teachings, and the amount of damage his "ministry" has done over the past 50 odd years.  Not only to women and children, but also to many men.

7 hours ago, Frank Castle said:

(IMHO, IBLP is a cult)

I agree.  It bears all the warning signs of being a cult - and it is a very destructive cult too.

This is clear even without the scandals that have dogged Gothard and his "ministry" over the years.  Even if you chose to dismiss the allegations against Bill Gothard as a sexual predator, I do not.

These things go all the way back to the early Basic Youth Conflicts days, when BG's ideas of discipline for troubled youth was deemed abusive in several cases in the early 1970s.   Then there were the unsuccessful attempts to hide gross sexual misconduct in the late 1970s and early '80s.  IBLP chucked Steve Gothard overboard for that, but did not address the real problems with Bill Gothard himself then.

There has clearly been a pattern of gross sexual abuse and of hiding gross sexual abuse within IBLP.  And not all the abuse was perpetrated by BG himself.

This latest exposure by Recovering Grace is just more of the same.  Nothing substantive was done to fix the problems - except they probably got better at shaming victims and hiding the abuse. 

[Queen Of Hearts]

This is why I love FJ... getting to hear Gothard whine over and over again that the officer needed to change his report because 'it's important' and being shot down each time without getting his way has completely made my day.  

[ViolaSebastian]

Honestly, this tells me all I need to know about Gothard and IBLP.

 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Frank Castle May I respectfully ask why you need proof Gothard is a bad man? ... You seem like a pretty rational fellow. What are you wavering on/on the fence about in this whole situation? (Apologies if that's too personal)