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Rachel333

Crisis Pregnancy Centers

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Terrie

Since I've been demanding that the other side back up their argument, it's only fair I do as well. 

In the late 90's, there were two pieces, one even written by pro-life OB/GYNs, that addressed this isue (https://rewire.news/article/2008/08/22/much-ado-about-nothing-prolife-misconceptions-about-contraception/ covers a summary of them). One key point, brought up by the pro-life piece, is that if changes in the uterine lining were a method, you would expect a higher rate of miscarriages in those who get pregnant while using them, since users often continue the pill, patch etc, for the first part of the pregnancy, and that's never been found.

Now, pro-lifers like to point out that hormonal birth control thins the uterine lining and that more recent studies of IVF show thin lining=less likely to have implantation. Now, even leaving aside the confounding issues that people doing IVF have other fertility issues, this ignores the fact that the uterine lining thickens in response to ovulation. After the follicle releases an ovum, the follicle tissue becomes a structure called the corpus luteum. This releases hormones that trigger the lining to thicken.  Hormonal BC prevents ovulation. No ovulation=thin lining. It also explains why women who get pregnant on these methods have no more issues than anyone else. They obviously ovulated and the uterine lining thickened in response as is supposed to happen.

Now, I'm not a doctor, just someone who reads a lot. So if my understanding is incorrect or out of date, feel free to provide additional information.

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Briefly
3 hours ago, Terrie said:

Since I've been demanding that the other side back up their argument, it's only fair I do as well. 

In the late 90's, there were two pieces, one even written by pro-life OB/GYNs, that addressed this isue (https://rewire.news/article/2008/08/22/much-ado-about-nothing-prolife-misconceptions-about-contraception/ covers a summary of them). One key point, brought up by the pro-life piece, is that if changes in the uterine lining were a method, you would expect a higher rate of miscarriages in those who get pregnant while using them, since users often continue the pill, patch etc, for the first part of the pregnancy, and that's never been found.

Now, pro-lifers like to point out that hormonal birth control thins the uterine lining and that more recent studies of IVF show thin lining=less likely to have implantation. Now, even leaving aside the confounding issues that people doing IVF have other fertility issues, this ignores the fact that the uterine lining thickens in response to ovulation. After the follicle releases an ovum, the follicle tissue becomes a structure called the corpus luteum. This releases hormones that trigger the lining to thicken.  Hormonal BC prevents ovulation. No ovulation=thin lining. It also explains why women who get pregnant on these methods have no more issues than anyone else. They obviously ovulated and the uterine lining thickened in response as is supposed to happen.

Now, I'm not a doctor, just someone who reads a lot. So if my understanding is incorrect or out of date, feel free to provide additional information.

I'm not a doctor either, but I think you are probably right. Also, when I was put on the pill as a teenager because of problem periods the doctor said that it prevents ovulation. So it's not an abortificant (not sure if I'm spelling right) at all.

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bertnee

^ that's my understanding as well. You aren't ovulating on the pill because the hormones in the pill make your body think you are pregnant. Since you aren't ovulating, there's nothing to be fertilized then aborted as long as the pill is working/used correctly /etc.

I've also heard the reason for the placebo week is mostly because women felt weird not having a period and liked the reassurance that they aren't pregnant. So, the bleeding is not from your normal ovulation cycle but withdrawal bleeding because the hormones are temporarily stopped while you take placebo pills instead. And that rather than just skip taking pills for a week, the placebo pills are included to keep you in the habit of taking a daily pill. #notadoctor but that's my understanding!

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smittykins

When my GYN put me on the Pill(I was a virgin at the time), he specifically said that it was to stop my ovaries from functioning.

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PennySycamore

@bertnee, you are correct about the scientists that developed the pill thinking that women would think it was weird not to get a period while they were on the pill.  Of course, that's not true.  My daughter was on one of the pills  where you have almost no periods at one time.  (Seasonique or Seasonalle?  Now I think she uses the Mirena.

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L1o2u3

It is incorrect that all pills prevent ovulation. For example, if you take the minipill, you can still ovulate in some cycles. 

Quote

The minipill thickens cervical mucus and thins the lining of the uterus (endometrium) — preventing sperm from reaching the egg. The minipill also suppresses ovulation, but not consistently. For maximum effectiveness, you must take the minipill at the same time every day.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/minipill/about/pac-20388306

It is also not as safe as other hormonal methods. The time frame in which you can take it is also smaller. And you don't have a break with these pills. 

It's also a widely held belief that the pill tricks the body to think it's pregnant. That is not true though, it rather mimics the luteal phase and tells the body ovulation has already happened (because you can only have multiple ovulations within a few hours in the same cycle). 

Quote

Incorrect, but a seriously common idea: the Pill doesn't actually make your body believe it's having a baby already. It's actually composed of two different hormones, estrogen and a synthetic version of progesterone (called progestin), and they interact to do something quite remarkable. They prevent you from ovulating, which thickens your cervical mucus to make it into a sperm-barrier. It prevents sperm from actually reaching your eggs and having any chance at fertilizing them. Dr. Dean points out for us that you stop ovulating when you're pregnant too, but that's basically the only similarity between being pregnant and taking the Pill.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/136705-7-things-you-should-know-about-how-birth-control-works 

In case you wonder, Dr. Dean is a Planned Parenthood doctor. 

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dramallama
39 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

It is incorrect that all pills prevent ovulation. For example, if you take the minipill, you can still ovulate in some cycles. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/minipill/about/pac-20388306

It is also not as safe as other hormonal methods. The time frame in which you can take it is also smaller. And you don't have a break with these pills. 

It's also a widely held belief that the pill tricks the body to think it's pregnant. That is not true though, it rather mimics the luteal phase and tells the body ovulation has already happened (because you can only have multiple ovulations within a few hours in the same cycle). 

https://www.bustle.com/articles/136705-7-things-you-should-know-about-how-birth-control-works 

In case you wonder, Dr. Dean is a Planned Parenthood doctor. 

I think when most people refer to "the pill" they're usually referring to the combination pill, with both estrogen and progestin.  Yes, the progestin-only pill is less effective and is generally reserved for those patients who are unable to tolerate estrogen, no one here argued that the progestin-only pill is the most effective form of birth control on the planet, or that you don't have to stick to an extremely strict schedule with it for it to reliably prevent ovulation.  None of this supports your previous assertion, btw, that the pill (mini or otherwise) works by keeping fertilized eggs from successfully implanting in the endometrium. 

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formergothardite
6 hours ago, L1o2u3 said:

It is incorrect that all pills prevent ovulation. For example, if you take the minipill, you can still ovulate in some cycles.

I would like to point out that you started off with all hormonal birth control being bad, not just specific ones. I do believe that you stated your ideal CP is a Christian(which is wrong since many Christians are perfectly okay with BC and abortion) one wouldn't help patients get any hormonal birth control. You have moved the goal posts a great deal as people point out how inaccurate you information is. This is something you might want to think about. 

Even if those fertilized eggs should be considered equal to babies that are already born, then your ideal CP center is STILL hypocritical for not providing BC because a lot BC works by preventing fertilization from every happening. From looking it up it appears that around 30-50% of the fertilized eggs that you say are babies naturally don't implant. Women taking birth control are less likely to ovulate and have fertilized eggs, therefore saving all those babies from dying in a natural abortion. 

The idea that hormonal BC is bad because in theory it might prevent implantation i just doesn't hold up to any sort of critical thinking. 

 

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Terrie

Your first quote explicitly states that the minipill does impact ovulation, just less consistently, and your second quote says hormonal BC prevents you from ovulating. I'm going to assume that you now agree with me that hormonal BC does not prevent implantation?

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Terrie

Since you voted me down and didn't bother to comment, I can only assume you don't have any evidence to back up your belief that hormonal BC somehow prevents implantation. Let me make it clear that if you provided actual evidence, I would be quite open to it. Though, it wouldn't actually change my opinion on the usage of hormonal BC, as 1) I agree with medical science that you are not pregnant until implantation and 2) I'm pro-choice so it wouldn't matter if if I thought it was an abortion.

That said, people have the right to accurate information, so they can make the decision they are most comfortable with. And you, L1o2u3, are not providing accurate information.

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formergothardite
13 minutes ago, Terrie said:

That said, people have the right to accurate information,

This is just another reason that CPC are so awful. They deal with vulnerable women who are in a crisis and then manipulate them with lies. They are banking that most women in bad situations aren't going to be able to search to see if what they say is true. 

This thread shows that facts don't impact many anti-choice people. They don't deal in facts and reality, they deal in lies and manipulation. You can show them how their information isn't true and they just move the goal posts and continue with the propaganda. 

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Alisamer

I kind of feel like anyone who thinks risking a woman's life or safety to save a two or three cell clump of tissue is a good thing needs to be slapped with a fish.

Women are people. They have families, children, partners, goals, lives, wishes, dreams. A fertilized egg has none of those things. For some women, allowing a fertilized egg to implant and eventually become a baby is not a good thing. It could be life threatening, it could risk their health, it could force them to stay in an abusive situation, it could put their already-born children at risk, it could increase their risk of living in poverty. 

I think putting an already-born person at risk of injury or death is a worse sin than preventing a few cells that might or might not eventually grow into a baby from implanting.

If someone believes hormonal birth control prevents implantation (whether that's the truth or not, people believe all sorts of stupid things) and that preventing implantation is abortion, and that abortion is a sin, then they shouldn't use hormonal birth control.

If that person tries to prevent other women from using hormonal birth control, or promotes unproven and/or false "facts" about hormonal birth control... that's evil. God had things to say about liars and manipulators, I believe.

 

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samurai_sarah
On 28/04/2018 at 7:44 AM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I know it's not what you mean and I agree that her position reeks of being very privileged, but I think that the other Germans on this board (thinking of @samurai_sarah @JillyO @Pretzel @BrandoBarks and others whose username escapes me atm) would be appalled by the shit she has spouted on this topic. Her convictions aren't a result of being German nor are prevalent in German culture, afaik.

Oops, completely missed this.

Us Germans are a people of some 80 million, and differ vastly from region to region, class to class, religion to religion, culture to culture and then it gets complicated.

I grew up in a vastly Catholic region of Germany, and this is all I have to say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar

How was that right? How can anyone justify that?

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JordynDarby5
2 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I kind of feel like anyone who thinks risking a woman's life or safety to save a two or three cell clump of tissue is a good thing needs to be slapped with a fish.

Women are people. They have families, children, partners, goals, lives, wishes, dreams. A fertilized egg has none of those things. For some women, allowing a fertilized egg to implant and eventually become a baby is not a good thing. It could be life threatening, it could risk their health, it could force them to stay in an abusive situation, it could put their already-born children at risk, it could increase their risk of living in poverty. 

I think putting an already-born person at risk of injury or death is a worse sin than preventing a few cells that might or might not eventually grow into a baby from implanting.

If someone believes hormonal birth control prevents implantation (whether that's the truth or not, people believe all sorts of stupid things) and that preventing implantation is abortion, and that abortion is a sin, then they shouldn't use hormonal birth control.

If that person tries to prevent other women from using hormonal birth control, or promotes unproven and/or false "facts" about hormonal birth control... that's evil. God had things to say about liars and manipulators, I believe.

 

I completely agree. I also believe God would agree also. I don't believe God would reject a woman who had an abortion. I think God would be very unhappy with those won't give women birth control, then refuse to help women in need or desperate during her pregnancy, lie to her, and then abandon her afterwards.   

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Terrie
3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

This thread shows that facts don't impact many anti-choice people. They don't deal in facts and reality, they deal in lies and manipulation. You can show them how their information isn't true and they just move the goal posts and continue with the propaganda. 

Ironic that she refuses to provide information she has been directly asked for when she threw a fit because an advice column did not include information that no one asked for.

Edited by Terrie

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