Crisis Pregnancy Centers

[Queen]

On 2018-04-23 at 6:45 PM, NotQuiteMotY said:

@tankgirl, thank you. I'll show that to him.

I agree with you. He's squeamish about PP providing abortions, which, yeah, nobody likes, but they can be necessary, and their other services help prevent them, but. Boy was raised Catholic, and some of it stuck more than the rest...

It's easier for him (or any cis male) to be against abortion when he - I presume - does not have a uterus himself... Just knowing that I have the ability to get pregnant and if I'm unlucky it might happen against my will, in which case I would do anything to stop it, was enough for me to become pro-choice. 

[Terrie]

Welp, @L1o2u3 has not bothered to post a citation. Not a shock. She posted that comment after I had previously stated that the claim that the changes to the uterine lining from hormonal BC prevent implantation has never been proven one way or the other and @formergothardite posted an excellent article on how the issue works that L1o2u3 obviously did not read.

Can't say I'm shocked. Pro-life types are never strong on facts and tend to run away when it becomes clear the rest of us won't just blindly accept what they claim. There's a reason they are forced to rely on shock value and pictures of "cute" babies. (I put cute in quotations, because the local billboard campaign has some of the most amazingly unphotogenic babies I have ever seen).

[GeoBQn]

Not surprised after what happened with the Captain Awkward birth control post.

 

[formergothardite]

I totally forgot she wrote that awful post. 

[Terrie]

Hmmm, in that thread, she also claims that the NFP being one of the best BC methods is a "fact." I'm thinking she needs to look up what the word means.

[L1o2u3]

26 minutes ago, Terrie said:

Hmmm, in that thread, she also claims that the NFP being one of the best BC methods is a "fact." I'm thinking she needs to look up what the word means.

If you compare the Pearl index of several methods, you can see that NFP is as safe as the pill  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods  You can look that up in the chart. The perfect use failure rate is better than the pills included in that list, the typical use failure rate is also better. 

[Terrie]

You do realize that the definition of "best" is not "safe," right?

[Alisamer]

NFP is great. So are other methods.

That said, if someone is coming to a CRISIS pregnancy center, I'm thinking teaching them NFP (while good in the sense of helping them learn more about their body and fertility and giving them options) may not be the "best" thing for that person. It's an option. There is no option that will be the "best" for every single person.

I realize this may be an unpopular opinion, but IMO any method of birth control that requires both partners to cooperate has inherent risks in some situations. I've kept a child at daycare before who was the result of her mother getting something slipped in her drink at a party (the mom promptly went on Depo after the child was born). There are abusive men who sabotage the woman's birth control to keep her pregnant and trapped (and yes, there are women who sabotage their birth control to trap men, as well). Condoms work if they are used. Diaphragms work if you have time to put them in, and they haven't had holes poked in them (ahem, Lori Alexander). Pills work if you remember to take them consistently. NFP can work, if you are very consistent with tracking AND both partners are willing to abstain during fertile times. 

I know women who chose IUDs because they knew they would not be able to keep up with other methods. I know women who chose pills because they must take medicines that make pregnancy very risky. I know women who get Depo shots because without them they have PMS so bad it is nearly psychosis. I know women who got pregnant while on their period, when they "shouldn't" have been fertile. I know couples that use NFP and condoms and are very, very careful. I know many women who got their tubes tied as soon as they had their second or third child. I know men who have gotten vasectomies. I even know a Catholic woman who takes the pill, but makes absolutely sure that everyone knows it's for acne (and that the pregnancy prevention is a great bonus).

I strongly believe that all people should be given many options to choose from for birth control, because no one method works "best" for every person - no matter what the statistics say about safety or effectiveness.

Any "pregnancy center" that focuses on NFP and barrier methods only while excluding hormonal birth control and IUDs is just as bad as abstinence only sex ed, IMO. We aren't ideal people and don't live in an ideal world, everyone needs to know what all their options are so they can make the best choice for them and their current situation. 

And if the goal is to reduce the number of abortions happening, the first and best way of doing that is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies that occur to begin with!

[Terrie]

BTW, @L1o2u3 we're still waiting on that citation for your claim that hormonal BC impacts implantation. 

[Coy Koi]

On 4/25/2018 at 8:04 AM, L1o2u3 said:

Edit: If you're in an abusive relationship, I think you should try to get away asap. Giving contraception to women may help to not make that situation harder by adding a pregnancy, but I think the main goal should always be to get her away asap. 

No, empowering her to choose to get away as soon as SAFELY possible should always be the main goal. She is, after all, at a much higher risk of being murdered once she tries to leave the relationship.

This is something that always gets on my nerves. Thankfully, I didn't have it nearly as bad as many women do, because I had no legal ties to the guy and he wasn't as violent as some. Still, he threatened my life on numerous occasions. Most people (friends and family) just told me to get a restraining order and leave. It's not that simple. When I called a domestic violence hotline, they told me that ultimately only I could decide the best way to proceed, using all the information I had (and they helped me work through that information, but they acknowledged that only I knew him). They could advise me of my options, but not tell me what to do. I wish more friends and family of victims would realize that immediate legal action is always something to CONSIDER, but it's not always the best solution. I considered petitioning for an order of protection, but eventually concluded that it would be better not to, and that turned out to be a good decision. (My ex was very charming and LOVED defending himself in court [which he had done before a few times in minor civil cases and misdemeanors].)

The point is that leaving an abusive relationship safely can very often take time and careful planning. While you're doing this, the abuser is likely planning in his own way. Abused women aren't likely to be able to effectively use NFP. Not even barrier methods. This is NOT their fault for not getting out quickly enough. They are probably doing their very best under unimaginably difficult circumstances, and trying to keep themselves and their children safe.

Like I said, I wasn't really at that point. I never really feared being murdered, even though my ex did threaten my life. But I can take it a few steps further in my mind and visualize what nearly-impossible situation many women are put into. If you care about the well-being of women, the last thing you do is blame a battered woman for not being able to use NFP to prevent pregnancy. Or any other method. Because they often don't have a meaningful choice.

 

[PennySycamore]

@Coy Koi,  I wish I could vote 100 hearts for your post.  It's very powerful and very wise.

[ViolaSebastian]

On 4/25/2018 at 8:06 AM, L1o2u3 said:

Social workers would help applying for health insurance, scolarships, financial aids etc. and they would know a lot about insurances and would  be trained in how to deal with all the bureaucratic stuff. And they would have all the contact information on where to find the services they can't offer themselves. They would know where to find shelter if your family throws you out or your partner is abusive etc. 

Speaking as someone in this field, there are fewer resources that one would think. For example, I worked for a non-profit that worked with young, single mothers. There were only two options for housing (in a town of 350,000): the Salvation Army shelter and section 8 vouchers, which had a years-long wait list, if that list was open at all. As far as health insurance, Medicaid is really the only low-income option, and that is restricted by some states more than others. Also, finding a job may mean that someone loses their Medicaid coverage, but the person is still priced out of buying insurance on the exchange. Even food pantries have a limit to the number of times you can refer a person, so they work in a pinch, but aren't a long-term strategy to feed a household. And the scholarships--well, that assumes that the women are educated and prepared for college--which many young people are not, thanks to a crap education system. 

[Godless Slūt]

I abhor crisis pregnancy centers and think they should be outlawed. The state of women’s healthcare in the US is awful. We are going backwards at an escalated pace especially for women of color. Our teen pregnancy & maternal death rates are among the worst of any developed country. The crisis pregnancy centers absolutely have no interest in truly helping any woman or child. 

As far as L1o2u3 goes, I think she rubs many of us the wrong way on this subject because she has a very narrow perspective of things. I admit it was bugging me a lot. Then I saw that she is German and doesn’t even live in the US. So yeah her perspective is going to be totally different. Right now Germany is one of the most successful developed countries with countless services available to its citizens that we in the US cannot even imagine. 

I could type example after example of how this is true but I’m tired and having ptsd flashbacks of stupid shit like being pregnant in an abusive relationship with no help. So I’m just going to say that IMO she doesn’t have any idea what it’s like for the majority of women in the US and the shit we go through just trying to get simple things. 

Also if men got pregnant I’m pretty damn sure that actual abortion clinics would be as plentiful as Starbucks, birth control would all be free and given out like candy and child-care would also be free and plentiful. Men would not put up with the shit that women are forced to deal with. 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

51 minutes ago, Godless Slūt said:

As far as L1o2u3 I think she rubs many of us the wrong way on this subject because she has a very narrow perspective of things. I admit it was bugging me a lot. Then I saw that she is GERMAN and doesn’t even live in the US. So yeah her perspective is going to be totally different. Right now Germany is one of the most successful developed countries with countless services available to its citizens that we in the US cannot even imagine. 

I could type example after example of how this is true but I’m tired and having ptsd flashbacks of stupid shit like being pregnant in an abusive relationship with no help. So I’m just going to say that IMO she doesn’t have any idea what it’s like for the majority of women in the US and the shit we go through just trying to get simple things. 

I know it's not what you mean and I agree that her position reeks of being very privileged, but I think that the other Germans on this board (thinking of @samurai_sarah @JillyO @Pretzel @BrandoBarks and others whose username escapes me atm) would be appalled by the shit she has spouted on this topic. Her convictions aren't a result of being German nor are prevalent in German culture, afaik.

[Godless Slūt]

@laPapessaGiovanna yeah I didn’t mean specifically that being German was the reason for her narrow point of view. I stressed the German part just to show that she has no idea at all what it’s like living in the US at this point in time.

I just reread this and I realized I still don’t know how to write what I mean. That is frustrating! I apologize if my comments come off as disparaging to German people in general. I was trying to share the fact that I found her comments not quite as offensive after I knew she wasn’t in the US and thus didn’t have any valid basis for her beliefs. They became easily dismissable instead of having a cutting sort of judging obliviousness to them. Just my opinion as always. Ymmv 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

33 minutes ago, Godless Slūt said:

@laPapessaGiovanna yeah I didn’t mean specifically that being German was the reason for her narrow point of view. I stressed the German part just to show that she has no idea at all what it’s like living in the US at this point in time.

I just reread this and I realized I still don’t know how to write what I mean. That is frustrating! I apologize if my comments come off as disparaging to German people in general. I was trying to share the fact that I found her comments not quite as offensive after I knew she wasn’t in the US and thus didn’t have any valid basis for her beliefs. They became easily dismissable instead of having a cutting sort of judging obliviousness to them. Just my opinion as always. Ymmv 

I think you made it perfectly clear. It's just that to me, Iiving in a country nearer to Germany both geographically and institutionally, the judging obliviousness is still obvious. Btw abortion laws in Germany are technically way worse than you'd imagine and the mere fact that there's even a debate about that may help to explain our friend's completely out of touch idea of how a CPC should operate. Germans are not new to debates about abortion and birth control, nor is Germany a paradise (even if it's still waaay better than too many other countries in this regard).

[feministxtian]

Joke that went around when I was still Catholic..."what do you call couples who use NFP?...Parents!". 

To the person who was like "let the government help"...honey, these "Pro-life" idiots are opposed to any and all government safety nets...they're NOT "pro-life", they're "pro-fetus". Their position is inconsistent with their supposed beliefs...and I personally love fucking with them pointing out their inconsistent beliefs....

 

[Pretzel]

3 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I know it's not what you mean and I agree that her position reeks of being very privileged, but I think that the other Germans on this board (thinking of @samurai_sarah @JillyO @Pretzel @BrandoBarks and others whose username escapes me atm) would be appalled by the shit she has spouted on this topic. Her convictions aren't a result of being German nor are prevalent in German culture, afaik.

@laPapessaGiovanna Thank you for pointing this out to me. Why L1o2u3's location even plays a role in her POV is beyond me. She portrays scientifically unproven things as facts and that is wrong. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, not to their own facts. L1o2u3 has quite the unpopular opinion and seems to be oblivious to the struggles of women around her or living in other countries. What this has to do with her place of residence I don't know. People who take their privileges for granted, and therefore lack compassion for the less privileged, exist everywhere in the world. 

As LPG mentioned, there are always two sides to a coin. Women can get affordable and safe abortions in Germany. Then again, only until gestational week 12 (i.e. pregnancy week 14) are they 'exempt from punishment'. Yes, they are not considered legal, just free from any kind of legal repercussions. 

Religious CPCs don't exist in large numbers. I've never noticed one TBH. Public counselling places exist and are supposed to offer counselling prior to an abortion. You cannot have an abortion unless you hand in an official note stating you've been to counselling. The public places, called 'pro familia' counsel women and make sure they have resources available to them if they end up deciding against an abortion. Ideally, the pro familia center helps women make up their minds but do not influence them in one direction. As I stated, that is how it works ideally. There are always stories of inept counsellors who either try to influence women, or just sign the note without giving proper counselling. Pro familia offers all kinds of services and resources, not just abortion counselling. Like STD testing, advice on BC, HIV-patient counselling, etc. etc.

IIRC there's also the 3-day-rule. There must be 3 days between the counselling and the actual abortion procedure. In theory, this is to make sure women have time to reconsider. Other people argue it's just another way to make it harder on women and there will always be women who feel this is only to harass them. There are others who say counselling is very important, so women can make a conscious decision and have someone unbiased to talk to. There's someone by their side to assist them in making up their minds. There are people saying the pre-abortion counselling is important to make sure women aren't pressured into having an abortion.

On top of that, there's a law that makes it illegal for doctors to educate the public in any way or form about the methods and procedures used in an abortion. It's considered advertising abortion, which is illegal. It can cost doctor's their licence and they can face time in jail for providing information. **

However, there are of course exceptions to the 14 week rule. Victims of rape and incest fall into that category; the women's mental and physical health is considered a priority, etc. It's very complex and anyone who wants to read up on German abortion laws can use Wikipedia and Google.

Again, women in Germany are 'privileged' in that abortion is available, it is safe, it is affordable, it is free of punishment. Yet it is not free of stigma, and like in any other place in the world, it is not free of controversies and there will always be groups motivated to mess with prevailing laws.

Health care insurance is mandatory in Germany. Pre-natal care is generally available, very thorough, and hospital births are covered by your insurance (as are professional midwives!). All kinds of BC are available in Germany, counselling is available, Plan B is available in pharmacies, etc. pp. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than other places? Probably yes. Is there room for improvement? Always.

How does all this play into L1o2u3's POV about prevention of pregnancy? I have no idea.

I don't think living in Germany or being German or having access to the kind of care that other people in other countries struggle to afford, is at fault for a lack of empathy. Being an ignorant human being is at fault for that. 

**ETA: Just FYI, Pro Familia has signed a public letter to the government, stating that women have a right to factual information regarding abortions and therefore the law should be abolished ASAP.

[Terrie]

5 hours ago, Godless Slūt said:

As far as L1o2u3 goes, I think she rubs many of us the wrong way on this subject because she has a very narrow perspective of things.

She rubs me the wrong way because she uncritically repeats pro-life lies as facts.

[Iamhispurity]

And as a German, I gotta add that you have to pay for any kind of birth control after you turn 20. The pill can easily cost 30€ for 3 months and for some less privileged that can be too expensive. The health insurance here doesn’t cover birth control or abortions. Some women also get abortions in the Netherlands, where it’s often cheaper and you can abort after 12 weeks. So keep in mind, abortions and birth control is not as great here as it sounds, while it still is better than in other places.

[bertnee]

I used the fertility awareness method to get pregnant. Tracking and temping and waking up at the exact same time every single day was a challenge and I'm still not sure if I really figured out the cervical fluid stuff. And if I did it wrong or we got the fertile time wrong, the worst that would happen is waiting another month to get pregnant.

 

I can't imagine using that method to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. Maybe if I was genuinely open to another but not actively trying, it would be OK. But if I really was not able to be pregnant (for whatever reason - don't want another kid, not healthy for mom, can't afford a child, etc), there's no way I would feel confident in this method.

 

And adding a bad or abusive partner... No. Not a chance.

 

 

[Lurky]

The woman I always feel sorry for re NFP is Bonnie of A Knotted Life.  She really, really wanted to make it work, because she felt her Catholicism meant birth control is a sin, and she's written about how horrible people have been to her, when she got pregnant over and over.  They can't afford their large family, she had bad Post Partum Depression, and basically she and her husband have to live celibate - but she's said people telling her how easy NFP is just makes everything worse for her.    It's people like Bonnie who suffer from other women (who may find it easy) having no empathy, and pushing it as achievable for everyone.

Bonnie's blog:   http://www.aknottedlife.com/  - look out for the posts titled things like "No sex for 6 months" and the related ones

[Walking Cat Bed]

I was frequently asked to donate to CPCs at my undergrad (Southern Baptist, small town). It was one of the "recommended" volunteer locations in town, too. I focused on classwork and used knitting as my break (which is what usually prompted "you should make booties and blankets for the CPC!"), so I usually went with a non-committal "maybe for my next project".

And my final year, a friend (who was engaged) got pregnant. That CPC convinced her to continue the pregnancy, but her social standing changed. People she'd been friendly with called her a whore, the CPC gave her diapers and then lost her number. Fortunately, a few faculty were a bit more compassionate and helped her get WIC, advocated for her to finish her last semester, and shut down any comments they heard. A few of our mutual friends were very protective, too, and helped with what we could (I'd go grocery shopping with her and buy things WIC didn't cover, which she'd trade with me for WIC items she was allergic to like eggs). 

She graduated, she and her fiance got married before the kid was born. They've been doing well and are happy together. She credits people who actually helped her (like the faculty who advocated for her and friends who stuck around), not the CPC.

Her experience was what started my process of questioning the Pro-Life At All Costs ideology -- because convincing someone to continue a pregnancy is relatively easy, but CPCs don't do much for them after that. They consider a continued pregnancy a victory, not a healthy mother or child.

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, Terrie said:

She rubs me the wrong way because she uncritically repeats pro-life lies as facts.

Yes, she does. She repeats anti-choice propaganda and doesn't seem to realize it. @L1o2u3, I understand these threads can be hard to read when you are the one everyone is disagreeing with, but please, stop and think about what people are trying to say. There is a reason so many of us started off in the anti-choice movement and now are very much against it. 

Maybe in the perfect world your NFP would work, but in real life it can easily fail. Don't take this personally, just learn to accept that the birth control that works for you doesn't work for many, many people. Failing NFP includes when someone screws up using it and has sex on the wrong dates, you can't exclude those just because it doesn't fit your narrative. 

3 hours ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

They consider a continued pregnancy a victory, not a healthy mother or child.

Exactly. The quality of life for the woman doesn't even seem on the radar for these groups. They don't care if it kills her or ruins her life. Their only goal is to control the bodies of women. 

[EmainMacha]

This was one of the ads that came up when I logged in tonight.

Spoiler

I went to the website. It's essentially an online CPC. Lots of testimonials about why keeping the baby was good or having the abortion was bad. Oh and an ultrasound image with 'Hello Mommy' written on it on the homepage.

On balance I think I'd rather get the Date a Pastor ads other people seem to have pop up.