Michael and Brandon Keilen: Part 4

[Daisy0322]

5 hours ago, anjulibai said:

With all the the tests on Michael, were any tests performed on Brandon? I don't think I ever really saw yes or no. 

That's a good question... do you think if he provided a speed sample it would be considered "spilling the seed " or whatever whatever 

[TeaELSee]

He was tested, when the saw Dr. Vick they talked about his results being normal.

[chaotic life]

He was tested, when the saw Dr. Vick they talked about his results being normal.

There are options for collecting samples that can utilized to honor religious beliefs. One is to use a condom without anything that could alter an analysis and with holes poked in it so there is no masturbation and no blocking conception.

[Ivycoveredtower]

pics from Papa Bill's birthday 

and national ice cream day

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlRpFP8HMU0/?taken-by=brandon_michael_jn15

[habert]

I have a general question about unexplained infertility if anyone is willing to share their experiences. How often is unexplained infertility suddenly unexplained fertility and someone becomes pregnant? Does anyone have any experiences like that? I know my mom tried for several years after my younger brother was maybe 2-3, and never become pregnant. And then suddenly after they stopped “trying” for awhile, she became pregnant with my sis, who was born right before my brother turned 8. I don’t really know what constituted “trying” vs “not trying” for my parents (and that’s a-ok with me lol), but I would imagine that it wasn’t a regimen that maybe some fundie women probably practice. 

I guess I’m just curious if any women on this forum who maybe where in the same boat as Michael if they think it’s still likely she could conceive. 

[jadis87]

33 minutes ago, habert said:

I have a general question about unexplained infertility if anyone is willing to share their experiences. How often is unexplained infertility suddenly unexplained fertility and someone becomes pregnant? Does anyone have any experiences like that? I know my mom tried for several years after my younger brother was maybe 2-3, and never become pregnant. And then suddenly after they stopped “trying” for awhile, she became pregnant with my sis, who was born right before my brother turned 8. I don’t really know what constituted “trying” vs “not trying” for my parents (and that’s a-ok with me lol), but I would imagine that it wasn’t a regimen that maybe some fundie women probably practice. 

I guess I’m just curious if any women on this forum who maybe where in the same boat as Michael if they think it’s still likely she could conceive. 

It's really hard to say. My husband and i struggled to conceive four years after we had our daughter. There was no real apparent reason why. My hormone levels all came back fine and my husband was fine so that was really frustrating. My doctor finally prescribed me clomid to make sure I was ovulating and that worked and now I'm due in September with baby #2.

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 hour ago, habert said:

I have a general question about unexplained infertility if anyone is willing to share their experiences. How often is unexplained infertility suddenly unexplained fertility and someone becomes pregnant? Does anyone have any experiences like that? I know my mom tried for several years after my younger brother was maybe 2-3, and never become pregnant. And then suddenly after they stopped “trying” for awhile, she became pregnant with my sis, who was born right before my brother turned 8. I don’t really know what constituted “trying” vs “not trying” for my parents (and that’s a-ok with me lol), but I would imagine that it wasn’t a regimen that maybe some fundie women probably practice. 

I guess I’m just curious if any women on this forum who maybe where in the same boat as Michael if they think it’s still likely she could conceive. 

now I personally don't have kids but I've heard it said alot that the minute you stop trying is when you get pregnant something about the stress of trying really hampering some people. 

[QuiverDance]

1 hour ago, habert said:

I have a general question about unexplained infertility if anyone is willing to share their experiences. How often is unexplained infertility suddenly unexplained fertility and someone becomes pregnant? Does anyone have any experiences like that? I know my mom tried for several years after my younger brother was maybe 2-3, and never become pregnant. And then suddenly after they stopped “trying” for awhile, she became pregnant with my sis, who was born right before my brother turned 8. I don’t really know what constituted “trying” vs “not trying” for my parents (and that’s a-ok with me lol), but I would imagine that it wasn’t a regimen that maybe some fundie women probably practice. 

I guess I’m just curious if any women on this forum who maybe where in the same boat as Michael if they think it’s still likely she could conceive. 

This is pretty much what happened to me.  I couldn't get pregnant, couldn't get pregnant, couldn't get pregnant, took Clomid, still wasn't ovulating, was going to do an IUI and got to the trigger shot.  That failed.  Then I had a hysterosalpinogram.  A few more months of trying.  Nothing.  Finally just gave up in exhaustion/frustration and bought a two seat convertible.  Six weeks after I bought that car, I found out I was pregnant.  Got pregnant with my second the minute I stopped BF the first.  Had my tubes tied.

[AtlanticTug]

5 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

now I personally don't have kids but I've heard it said alot that the minute you stop trying is when you get pregnant something about the stress of trying really hampering some people. 

This is actually a very damaging myth. If you speak to any psychologist who specializes in treating people dealing with infertility they will tell you that this should never, ever be said to a person battling infertility. It comes in many variations like "you need to relax" or "if you just went on vacation, it would happen", etc. What's more the studies show that stress does not impact fertility and implying that it does further places blame on an infertile couple who is dealing with a medical disorder. Anybody who has been through many cycles of IVF knows how stressful it is. I had 5 fresh cycles and I always wondered if the stress was impacting them, etc and then was told that there is no data to support that and that IVF is so stressful that there is basically no way to go through it without stress, so if lack of stress was a requirement nobody would be getting pregnant that way.

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

This is actually a very damaging myth. If you speak to any psychologist who specializes in treating people dealing with infertility they will tell you that this should never, ever be said to a person battling infertility. It comes in many variations like "you need to relax" or "if you just went on vacation, it would happen", etc. What's more the studies show that stress does not impact fertility and implying that it does further places blame on an infertile couple who is dealing with a medical disorder. Anybody who has been through many cycles of IVF knows how stressful it is. I had 5 fresh cycles and I always wondered if the stress was impacting them, etc and then was told that there is no data to support that and that IVF is so stressful that there is basically no way to go through it without stress, so if lack of stress was a requirement nobody would be getting pregnant that way.

you might call it a myth but look at the many people that say the second they stopped trying they got pregnant. there are two stories just on this thread of people that got pregnant AFTER  they stopped trying after years of trying 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Ivycoveredtower

[AtlanticTug]

Just now, Ivycoveredtower said:

you might call it a myth but look at the many people that say the second they stopped trying they got pregnant. there are two stories just on this thread of people that got pregnant AFTER  they stopped trying after years oh trying 

They are anecdotes.

Statistically they are meaningless, though happy events for those couples. The vast majority of people battling infertility will not get pregnant after they stop trying (after years of trying). That data is as well established as the sun rising in the east.

[justmy2cents]

When I was doing IVF my Dr. told me that stress wouldn't affect my outcome. Women throughout history have gotten pregnant in very stressful situations. During times of war, times of famine, and even during rape. We all know the couple that got pregnant after they stopped trying.  I know a few myself.  I also know several couples who never became pregnant after they 'stopped trying'. 

[just_ordinary]

2 hours ago, AtlanticTug said:

They are anecdotes.

Statistically they are meaningless, though happy events for those couples. The vast majority of people battling infertility will not get pregnant after they stop trying (after years of trying). That data is as well established as the sun rising in the east.

Hmmm, I think that is exactly what the original poster asked for though. Personal experience not hard data.

But there is also data iirc that stress is a factor that makes it harder (not impossible and only to a small grade) to conceive. Maybe that applies only to conceiving without interventions? Off to check...

Is „don’t stress“ helping? No it is not. Not with infertility, or any other medical condition. Because of course you are fucking stressed out. The stress won’t go away because you just try to relax- often the opposite. Now, it is somehow „your fault“ or something you „can actually influence“ - when in reality it is only normal and you cannot stop being stressed. I agree that saying something like this is damaging because it puts even more pressure on the couple.

People get pregnant all the time during very stressful life events (war, illnesses, grieve...) but some people (who are not the statistical norm but still exist) won’t. Nevertheless- eliminating stress won’t make you pregnant instantly.

Especially unexplained infertility must be extremely hard. You never find out what the problem is (hence unexplained) and I guess you always feel like the next procedure could be THE ONE. In the end it makes no difference if infertility is explainable or not though. It sucks. To find the strength to stop it and accept it and find a way to find a new focus in life is one of the strongest things people can do.

I read in a wonderful community of people who dealt with unexplained infertility for many many years before they finally stepped out of the cycle. Their stories were heartbreaking. The strain on their mental well being, their relationships, their finances and on the women’s bodies- I have nothing but the deepest respect. Especially as not many people talk about it. Their stories about when they reached the point to say: „we stop that now and we accept to never have biological children and we will find a way to live a happy life“ were really inspiring and eye opening. None got pregnant after they stopped.

Edited July 27, 2018 by just_ordinary

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

13 hours ago, habert said:

I have a general question about unexplained infertility if anyone is willing to share their experiences. How often is unexplained infertility suddenly unexplained fertility and someone becomes pregnant? Does anyone have any experiences like that? I know my mom tried for several years after my younger brother was maybe 2-3, and never become pregnant. And then suddenly after they stopped “trying” for awhile, she became pregnant with my sis, who was born right before my brother turned 8. I don’t really know what constituted “trying” vs “not trying” for my parents (and that’s a-ok with me lol), but I would imagine that it wasn’t a regimen that maybe some fundie women probably practice. 

I guess I’m just curious if any women on this forum who maybe where in the same boat as Michael if they think it’s still likely she could conceive. 

I experienced secondary infertility. My first was conceived while actively preventing so I assumed the next one would be simple. Nope. I have endometriosis, and lots of scar tissue, but my tubes are clear and I ovulate normally. I was able to conceive more children; it turns out that for me personally, my natural fertility means I conceive roughly every 3.5-5 years, practicing no birth control whatsoever. 

[habert]

20 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Hmmm, I think that is exactly what the original poster asked for though. Personal experience not hard data.

I was looking for both as I’m curious about Michaels future and love hard data, but also recognize that this is a community mostly filled with women and that women sharing stories is powerful for other women and also more interesting to read. I absolutely will not deny the fact that suddenly not trying is the magic trick is a harmful myth but am interested in what in general people know about the statistics of women who are diagnosed as having “unexplained infertility” suddenly become fertile. I expect women who have gone through that experience might have data (from doctors perhaps) more readily on hand. 

Posters can be asked what they meant, and I don’t think discussions need to be reductive to either or. I think @AtlanticTug‘s point is a valuable one. Anecdotes are valuable but not data. Data is valuable, but can be elaborated with anecdotes. Pointing this out is not an attack and doesn’t devalue the posters above who have stories that may even contradict hard data. I’m not implying that you were necessarily saying that, I just am surprised at the number of down votes they received. I also don’t think we should police down votes or anything like that, I’m just interested in hearing the stories and perhaps starting a valuable conversation about infertility. 

[VGL]

My parents adopted my two older sisters.  My mom gave birth to me one month before their 20th wedding anniversary.

Similar thing happened to one of my cousins.  Adopted two and then had a "biological surprise"

[jqlgoblue]

I know two families who did IVF for their first and then easily had their additional children w/o help. It's a very small sample but it's possible that for some people help is required to get everything going the first time and then for whatever reason everything works better on it's own the subsequent times, for whatever reason. (And then, absolutely the opposite happens for people too.)

I don't have any real data and don't want to get yelled at, but I don't doubt that extreme emotional stress can have real biological implications on bodily functions for some people. If my intestines don't function well (like at all) when I'm stressed then who is to say what other things my body might struggle to do to? Or, how someone else's body might react differently than mine? I didn't choose for my intestines to react to my stress. Also, the scientific community has identified new organs and new pathways (e.g. from brain to intestines) just in the last couple of years. You'd think we should know everything by now, but it seems we don't. So, I reserve it all to we just don't know / aren't very good at this yet.

[Melissa1977]

14 hours ago, VGL said:

My parents adopted my two older sisters.  My mom gave birth to me one month before their 20th wedding anniversary.

Similar thing happened to one of my cousins.  Adopted two and then had a "biological surprise"

One of my teachers tried to get pregnant for 5 years. Then adopted. After adopting, she had 2 bio kids. It was before fertility treatments were a thing, so it was all natural. It is not a miracle neither an unique case. 

Stress can affect fertility (and health in general, as @jqlgoblue says) but it doesn't work in a simple way. It is not that if you relax, you are automathically getting pregnant or healing. Non stressed people also get sick, but the effects of the stress in health are real. For example when my father gets stressed, his blood sugar levels rise dramatically, damaging his kidneys as a consequence.

Some posters said that if stress was related to fertility, women in wars wouldn't get pregnant. But as I said, it is not so simple. Stress does not affect everybody the same way. One can have fertility affected by stress, others can have mental health affected, etc. Also, in wars and extremelly hard environtments, probably fertility is lower and miscarriages higher. It is not unusual to not to have the period while living extreme situations.

[Johannah]

Emerging from lurking to say, I think the issue is not that stress undeniably affects nearly all aspects of health, it’s that stress has been historically used specifically related to infertility in a derogatory way. It’s used to “blame the victim,” whether intentionally or not, by saying things like, “if you just relaxed and stopped worrying about it so much, you would get pregnant,” “the second you stop thinking about it is when it happens,” “why don’t you go on a vacation,” “my friend so-and-so got pregnant after 2 years when they finally stopped stressing about it and considered adoption,” etc. These kinds of comments are mostly well-intentioned and due to a lack of understanding about the nature of infertility. It is a medical condition. No one would ever say, “my friend stopped stressing and cured her cancer,” or even “she finally just relaxed and got over the flu.” It is insulting to use it in the context of infertility.

The stress argument has also been used in toxic ways to demean and dehumanize women. Anyone remember Missouri senator Todd Akin and his “legitimate rape” comment? His argument was basically that if a woman is raped, she will be so stressed that she won’t conceive, implying that if she does get pregnant then it must not be “legitimate rape.” I think it’s important to keep in mind the historical misuse of the fertility/stress assumption. 

As a person who has experienced infertility myself and has two children conceived via IVF, I have done a ton of research on fertility and there are a lot of misconceptions. The average couple will conceive within one year of “normal” sexual intercourse without the use of birth control. However, for a couple without fertility issues, most will conceive within 3-4 cycles if they are actively trying/timing ovulation/having very frequent sex, etc. 

Also, unexplained infertility does not mean that it is unexplainable. It means based on the tests that currently exist, there is no evidence that there is an issue such as a hormone imbalance or anovulation or a physical blockage such as uterine fibroids or blocked Fallopian tubes. It does not mean there is not an issue. There most definitely is. The technology just does not exist to determine what it is. And in terms of treatment, it doesn’t really matter anyway because there aren’t many options. It is generally advised to do IVF regardless of diagnosis. 

It is also less common to have frank infertility than it is to have subfertility, meaning that, with PCOS or endometriosis or an unexplained diagnosis, women often will occasionally conceive, but it is rare and infrequent and cannot be counted on to occur. But it does happen. This is part of what leads to the stress assumption/fallacy, when it is not stress at all, but just that occasionally conception can occur even in the case of a fertility issue. The issue is not completely blocking conception, but a multitude of factors is making it extremely unlikely. And the more time that has passed, the less likely it is that conception will occur. This is part of why a lot of people have the “my friend tried for 2 or 3 years and then got pregnant” story, and rarely the “my friend tried for 11 years and then got pregnant” story. 

In Michael’s case, she’s been married for nearly 3 years now, and the more time that passes the less likely it is that she will have a spontaneous conception. I assume that she will not do any fertility interventions such as taking Clomid or FSH, or IUI or IVF. However, I have wondered if she would consider embryo adoption. This has become kind of a fundie movement recently because they see all of the leftover frozen embryos from IVF as unborn children in need of saving. There’s now a Christian “adoption” agency based in Nashville called Nightlight (I think) Adoptions that does embryo adoptions. They call them snowflake babies because they’re all unique and they’ve been frozen. I wonder if Michael knows about it. That option would allow her to remain true to her beliefs while also experiencing pregnancy and childbirth. Really curious to see how she proceeds. I can’t imagine that she will decide to not have children at all rather than choosing adoption in some form. 

[JesSky03]

11 minutes ago, Johannah said:

 

It is also less common to have frank infertility than it is to have subfertility, meaning that, with PCOS or endometriosis or an unexplained diagnosis, women often will occasionally conceive, but it is rare and infrequent and cannot be counted on to occur. But it does happen. This is part of what leads to the stress assumption/fallacy, when it is not stress at all, but just that occasionally conception can occur even in the case of a fertility issue. The issue is not completely blocking conception, but a multitude of factors is making it extremely unlikely. And the more time that has passed, the less likely it is that conception will occur. This is part of why a lot of people have the “my friend tried for 2 or 3 years and then got pregnant” story, and rarely the “my friend tried for 11 years and then got pregnant” story. 

 

I was coming in to say something similar. Just because someone has infertility doesn't mean they have a 0% chance at getting pregnant. I'm just quoting off of memory so I could be off, but I think a normal couple has a 25-30% chance of conceiving each month whereas someone with unexplained infertility has a 2% chance. Its not an encouraging number but it means there is still that small chance conception could happen. 

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Fertility/infertility is a strange beast sometimes. One of my close friends has been trying for about 12 years and recently adopted. Some of the things people have said to her make me want to punch them. Everyone knows the magical thing that will make you conceive. She and I both have endometriosis and it sometimes feels like no one understands anything about it at all.

I’m grateful for the children we’ve been able to have, but the early years were hard when I didn’t know if we’d ever have even a second child. People don’t seem to understand much about secondary infertility. “Well, you obviously don’t have trouble getting pregnant, you have x amount of kids!” Yeah, lady, and it only took me four times as long to get to that number as my more fertile friends. Like I said, I am grateful! I never complain in front of my friend and I’m thankful we’ve been able to have so many and never experienced a miscarriage, but back in the early years I sure was frustrated with my body. 

[theotherelise]

I have PCOS and probably endo, so my infertility isn't unexplained, but I've done a ton of reading on it as I've been battling. 

For unexplained infertility, I've seen numbers indicating 2% chance each month after one year of timed trying. What's crazy is that even with a medicated IUI, your chance is only about 10% each month. So I pay about $800+ for 1/3 of the chance of a fertile couple just trying on their own. Hooray. And of course, the percentage "chance" is averaged over all women, so your undetected issue could mean your chance is 0% while another couple is 4%.

Saying stress causes infertility is, IMO, the same as Todd Aiken saying that a woman's body has a way of shutting it all down after a rape. I have seen some studies which claim that stress can delay ovulation or mess around with your hormones a bit (I think cortisol raises DHEA?), but that is not an ongoing issue. You might be really stressed one month and ovulate a few days late, but that is not what is keeping you from getting pregnant. And it is offensive to hear people suggest stress is part of your problem.

The thing is, the medical community knows very very little about infertility. They know I have PCOS, but they have no idea what PCOS really is or why it happens, it is just a grouping of symptoms. They suspect I have endo from my symptoms, but they don't think we should worry about removing it with surgery because they're not entirely sure how/why it affects fertility.

They know egg quality matters and uterine health/lining thickness matters, but they don't really know much about why or how.

My last cycle was supposed to be a clomid IUI with trigger shot to induce ovulation. But when I went in for my follicle check on CD 11, we discovered I'd ovulated in the day or two after I finished my clomid round (supposed to be 5-9 days after) and we'd missed our chance. The cycle only lasted 17 days because I got my period a week later. I had called them when I started having heavy spotting because the timing was so weird and they said, "We don't think you're on your period, but we don't know what is happening. We think your body is confused."

There are very few answers in infertility treatment. And most treatment isn't really about addressing the underlying causes at all. The early interventions are just about manufacturing a cycle where things happen when they should using different hormones at different times. They don't actually figure out why your luteal phase is short, they just give you a bunch of progesterone suppositories to shove up your hoo-ha and hope that does the trick.

As for spontaneous pregnancies after years of trying...sometimes your body gets its crap together and you start ovulating normally after years of anovulation. You or your partner's health could improve causing sperm counts to rise or maybe some undetected inflammatory condition to even out. Or maybe you just found that lucky 2% that month. 

[meee]

On 8/1/2018 at 11:50 PM, theotherelise said:

I have PCOS and probably endo, so my infertility isn't unexplained, but I've done a ton of reading on it as I've been battling. 

For unexplained infertility, I've seen numbers indicating 2% chance each month after one year of timed trying. What's crazy is that even with a medicated IUI, your chance is only about 10% each month. So I pay about $800+ for 1/3 of the chance of a fertile couple just trying on their own. Hooray. And of course, the percentage "chance" is averaged over all women, so your undetected issue could mean your chance is 0% while another couple is 4%.

Saying stress causes infertility is, IMO, the same as Todd Aiken saying that a woman's body has a way of shutting it all down after a rape. I have seen some studies which claim that stress can delay ovulation or mess around with your hormones a bit (I think cortisol raises DHEA?), but that is not an ongoing issue. You might be really stressed one month and ovulate a few days late, but that is not what is keeping you from getting pregnant. And it is offensive to hear people suggest stress is part of your problem.

The thing is, the medical community knows very very little about infertility. They know I have PCOS, but they have no idea what PCOS really is or why it happens, it is just a grouping of symptoms. They suspect I have endo from my symptoms, but they don't think we should worry about removing it with surgery because they're not entirely sure how/why it affects fertility.

They know egg quality matters and uterine health/lining thickness matters, but they don't really know much about why or how.

My last cycle was supposed to be a clomid IUI with trigger shot to induce ovulation. But when I went in for my follicle check on CD 11, we discovered I'd ovulated in the day or two after I finished my clomid round (supposed to be 5-9 days after) and we'd missed our chance. The cycle only lasted 17 days because I got my period a week later. I had called them when I started having heavy spotting because the timing was so weird and they said, "We don't think you're on your period, but we don't know what is happening. We think your body is confused."

There are very few answers in infertility treatment. And most treatment isn't really about addressing the underlying causes at all. The early interventions are just about manufacturing a cycle where things happen when they should using different hormones at different times. They don't actually figure out why your luteal phase is short, they just give you a bunch of progesterone suppositories to shove up your hoo-ha and hope that does the trick.

As for spontaneous pregnancies after years of trying...sometimes your body gets its crap together and you start ovulating normally after years of anovulation. You or your partner's health could improve causing sperm counts to rise or maybe some undetected inflammatory condition to even out. Or maybe you just found that lucky 2% that month. 

THANK YOU. Upvoting this wasn't enough. I HATE the "stress causes infertility" thing and I think your comparison to Todd Aiken is spot on!

[Nowyn]

Sometimes also infertility is not by direct causes ie reproductive issue. I have a couple of illnesses (EDS and lupus are most relevant) that can mean I won't be able to carry a child to viability. I am over 30 and never thought I wouldn't have kids at this point but no partner increases the need to have your ducks in order and I don't have them there yet.  I had one miscarriage in my early twenties but I won't know until I do. Stress is an issue in the autoimmune side of it but not stressing won't affect EDS at all.

[JermajestyDuggar]

On 7/26/2018 at 2:42 PM, habert said:

I have a general question about unexplained infertility if anyone is willing to share their experiences. How often is unexplained infertility suddenly unexplained fertility and someone becomes pregnant? Does anyone have any experiences like that? I know my mom tried for several years after my younger brother was maybe 2-3, and never become pregnant. And then suddenly after they stopped “trying” for awhile, she became pregnant with my sis, who was born right before my brother turned 8. I don’t really know what constituted “trying” vs “not trying” for my parents (and that’s a-ok with me lol), but I would imagine that it wasn’t a regimen that maybe some fundie women probably practice. 

I guess I’m just curious if any women on this forum who maybe where in the same boat as Michael if they think it’s still likely she could conceive. 

I dealt with unexplained fertility. I couldn’t get pregnant with my first until we did IUI and it worked on the first try. 

Second time around it was a total surprise. I was not expecting to get pregnant the old fashioned way. I was beyond shocked. 

The fact that they have not gotten pregnant yet doesn’t look good for them statistically, however it’s always a possibility if she ovulating and he has decent sperm. What I hope for them is at least try some fertility treatments. But I don’t know how their beliefs will affect that. Personally I think doing IUI shouldn’t be a huge deal but I never know with fundies.