Michael and Brandon Keilen: Part 4

[rebeccawriter01]

On 12/26/2018 at 5:01 PM, just_ordinary said:

What annoys me sometimes is people thinking that they would probably love their miracle child so much it wouldn’t suffer. But I think most Fundies do love their children (or at least believe they love them). That is part of their destructive mindset that the harsh training is meant to ensure the children won’t break away and thereby end in hell. If you really believe your child would suffer for all eternity, you will do a lot to prevent that. This is one of the worst mind traps- how can you argument against it? You definitely can’t promise or prove that is not what is going to happen. Those cults really know how to lure you in and fuck your mind. 

I can definitely see Brandon and Michael believing along those lines. 

The fact that a child for them would be a miracle would be even more reason they would indoctrinate the child in the IBLP life. Most of the members truly believe that passing along God's (IBLP) teachings is the best thing they can do for someone (especially a child). It's sad because Michael seems like a very sweet and caring woman who desperately wants a child of her own. Yet there is this feeling of cognitive dissonance among many of us because if she is finally able to have one, it's very likely that child will be raised in a way that many find harmful. 

It's got to be hell for her given the importance that her family and cult place on motherhood. Her worth as a person is very likely wrapped up in this idea of wife and mother. Even outside of the IBLP lifestyle there is such pressure on women to reproduce. I had a hysterectomy at a rather young age. While I don't regret it (my quality of life is so much better now than before), there is a little part of me that cringes every time someone asks me about getting pregnant or wanting more (I have two adopted daughters) children. People can be quite cruel without meaning to be with that. 

Just as an example, while I was having my hysterectomy my cousin and his wife were at the same hospital having a baby. Many family members came to visit them and see the new baby. None came to see me (other than my mother). That was fine by me, but I was criticized for not going down the hall (35 rooms away by the way) and visiting too. Never mind that I had just had surgery and was in a lot of pain. Never mind that it seemed unusually cruel to my emotional health to have a hysterectomy and then hold a newborn the next day. 

Michael, for all her faults, has my respect for how she reacts and doesn't turn each of her siblings' announcements into a pity party. She genuinely seems happy for them and eager to meet each new family member. That is a strength that I admire and that it took me a long time to develop. 

[AliceInFundyland]

@rebeccawriter01 I wish I could give you a billion hugs. I don’t know all the nuances of your family dynamic - but - that’s a big pill to swallow.

 

[meee]

To whoever asked a page or so ago (sorry!), they'd definitely need to get a sample from Brandon to rule out male factor. There are other things they could do first if everything checks out with Michael--testicular ultrasound, bloodwork to check FSH and testosterone and karyotype, etc., but most of that isn't conclusive.

[Mela99]

@zcccrv I hope for a sticky bean or two and that you stay calm! I was a wreck and a half during all of it.

[zcccrv]

5 hours ago, Mela99 said:

@zcccrv I hope for a sticky bean or two and that you stay calm! I was a wreck and a half during all of it.

Thanks, Mela99!

[rebeccawriter01]

On 2/2/2019 at 3:01 PM, AliceInFundyland said:

@rebeccawriter01 I wish I could give you a billion hugs. I don’t know all the nuances of your family dynamic - but - that’s a big pill to swallow.

 

Thanks. I'm used to my extended family being a bit of a pain in the rear. I think this was a bit harder because I wasn't expecting the reaction from them. They are very zealous Southern Baptists. I had been having issues that led to the hysterectomy for more years than I should have allowed. Their response when I was sick, in so much pain I could barely move, and passing out was that I should pray harder about it. 

Big coincidence...this part of my family is from Clinton, Tennessee just beside Rocky Top (that we all still call Lake City). A distant relative (3rd cousin or something) and his family are members of Gil's roving church. 

[miss_batson]

Michael and Brandon party weekend 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I like Michael’s dress. It’s very “Michael” to me. 

[AliceInFundyland]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I like Michael’s dress. It’s very “Michael” to me. 

I like that it’s sparklier and shinier than her sisters. That we’ve seen. For once she should be standing out a bit. I have no idea if it’s on purpose. But, I like it too.

[llucie]

18 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I like that it’s sparklier and shinier than her sisters. That we’ve seen. For once she should be standing out a bit. I have no idea if it’s on purpose. But, I like it too.

She said in the comments that she sew both costumes herself. I hope she had a great time, i think its a bit sad that until she posted the photos herself we had no idea she was even on Tenesse for the weekend, not a single photo or video of her from anyone of the family...i seriously thought that they were not there.

[JermajestyDuggar]

She did a great job seeing them! 

[LillyP]

For as much hate as we give these families when they announce a pregnancy, I get teary whenever I see a picture of Michael holding a baby or one of the little kids. I know that feeling of desperately wanting to be pregnant and it not happening - and of pregnancy loss. I remember the days of being surrounded by family and friends and their babies/kids and just wishing I was somewhere else. 

[meee]

18 hours ago, LillyP said:

For as much hate as we give these families when they announce a pregnancy, I get teary whenever I see a picture of Michael holding a baby or one of the little kids. I know that feeling of desperately wanting to be pregnant and it not happening - and of pregnancy loss. I remember the days of being surrounded by family and friends and their babies/kids and just wishing I was somewhere else. 

I agree with every word of this.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think that even if they are on the fence about adoption, they will eventually decide to adopt. Michael obviously wants children. She’s a patient person but if she isn’t pregnant in 2019, I think they will start the adoption process. That’s just an opinion. I have nothing to back it up besides her love of children.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I honestly wish Michael had a wedding dress more like her costume. I'm thinking the ivory/gold dress Drew Barrymore wore in Ever After to the ball. It would have been beautiful and within their modesty standards without looking odd. 

[onyourwayhome]

I expect it would take IUI or IVF at this point for Michael to have a baby and I highly doubt that will ever happen, as it involves “spilling seed”. I also don’t think they will adopt. Adopting is incredibly hard and incredibly expensive. There are way more people wanting to adopt than babies being put up for adoption. It also costs $20,000 to $30,000 to do. They will maintain God opens and closes the womb and if he doesn’t open it, it wasn’t meant to be.

[llucie]

4 minutes ago, onyourwayhome said:

I expect it would take IUI or IVF at this point for Michael to have a baby and I highly doubt that will ever happen, as it involves “spilling seed”. I also don’t think they will adopt. Adopting is incredibly hard and incredibly expensive. There are way more people wanting to adopt than babies being put up for adoption. It also costs $20,000 to $30,000 to do. They will maintain God opens and closes the womb and if he doesn’t open it, it wasn’t meant to be.

I was just watching some youtube videos of a megafamilie who are foster parents and doesnt seem like they are rich at all. They ended of adopting a lot of the kids they fostered, seems like there is plenty of children in need in the system, a lot more than people willing to adopt.

[onyourwayhome]

I could possibly see them doing embryo adoption though...I could go either way with that and their beliefs.

[theotherelise]

@llucie that is correct, foster-to-adopt is a very minimal cost. The state even pays for medicaid for children in foster care, so you don't have to add them to your health insurance. There can also be stipends for their needs or childcare depending on where you live. There is usually some cost in preparing your home and additional care above and beyond the stipends (where available). The legal fees are also usually covered by the state, but foster families usually have quite a lot time-cost they have to spend on court visits and other visits for the child's welfare (emotional/mental/physical health appointments, visitation, meetings with social worker/CASA/gaurdian ad litem, etc). 

Private adoption in the US through an agency seems to cost 30-40k, but many families fundraise for all or part of the cost.

International adoption is in about the same range as domestic adoption, the cost seems to vary a lot based on country and your travel costs.

There are also independent private adoptions that can take place outside of an agency. These run the gamut. If the Keilens or someone in their circle knew a family with a young daughter who got pregnant and wanted to place the baby for adoption, they could do a private adoption with an adoption attorney. I've always heard these can be less expensive, but they also seem harder to navigate.

All types of adoption involve risk.

Children in foster care deserve placements that fit their needs, not just the needs of the foster parents, so even if a parent/guardian has their parental rights revoked, there are a lot more steps before a foster parent would be able to adopt. The entire foster care system is also predicated on the goal of reunification with the birth family. It can be years until an adoption takes place and the situation could change at any time.

International adoptions of course involve a ton of legal hurdles, usually a significant amount of time spent in-country, and a constant risk of government relations changing and your adoption being cancelled.

Private adoptions through an agency can take a long time to get matched and birth parents have time after placement to change their mind and choose to parent. It's usually at least 48 hours, but sometimes as much as 30 days. 

Independent private adoptions can be rife with scams. Even finding out about potential situations can be difficult.

@onyourwayhome I was wondering about their feelings on snowflake/embryo adoption and the costs associated. It's way more expensive than I thought! One big program is $8000 for the program cost, $2000-3500 for a home study, and the frozen embryo transfer is not included. FET's at my clinic cost $3000. Plus, that only gets you three potential matches with donor families and your chance of the transfer proceeding to a live birth are probably only 40-50%. So you're paying at least $13k for one chance with one embryo.

From the religious side of it, I know many in SBC circles look down on IVF for a myriad of reasons beyond just the potential of embryos being discarded. Russell Moore is the president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the SBC. He and his wife dealt with infertility and adopted. He even wrote a book about his assertion that adoption was the only and best plan for infertility (Adopted for Life). Part of his issue with IVF, I believe, is that there is a potential of an embryo not surviving the thaw before transfer. Exposing a "baby" to that risk is apparently a non-starter for him and others. It appears, however, that they do advocate for embryo adoption as a better alternative to discarding embryos: https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/what-you-should-know-about-frozen-embryo-adoption

 

[llucie]

30 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

@llucie that is correct, foster-to-adopt is a very minimal cost. The state even pays for medicaid for children in foster care, so you don't have to add them to your health insurance. There can also be stipends for their needs or childcare depending on where you live. There is usually some cost in preparing your home and additional care above and beyond the stipends (where available). The legal fees are also usually covered by the state, but foster families usually have quite a lot time-cost they have to spend on court visits and other visits for the child's welfare (emotional/mental/physical health appointments, visitation, meetings with social worker/CASA/gaurdian ad litem, etc). 

Private adoption in the US through an agency seems to cost 30-40k, but many families fundraise for all or part of the cost.

International adoption is in about the same range as domestic adoption, the cost seems to vary a lot based on country and your travel costs.

There are also independent private adoptions that can take place outside of an agency. These run the gamut. If the Keilens or someone in their circle knew a family with a young daughter who got pregnant and wanted to place the baby for adoption, they could do a private adoption with an adoption attorney. I've always heard these can be less expensive, but they also seem harder to navigate.

All types of adoption involve risk.

Children in foster care deserve placements that fit their needs, not just the needs of the foster parents, so even if a parent/guardian has their parental rights revoked, there are a lot more steps before a foster parent would be able to adopt. The entire foster care system is also predicated on the goal of reunification with the birth family. It can be years until an adoption takes place and the situation could change at any time.

International adoptions of course involve a ton of legal hurdles, usually a significant amount of time spent in-country, and a constant risk of government relations changing and your adoption being cancelled.

Private adoptions through an agency can take a long time to get matched and birth parents have time after placement to change their mind and choose to parent. It's usually at least 48 hours, but sometimes as much as 30 days. 

Independent private adoptions can be rife with scams. Even finding out about potential situations can be difficult.

@onyourwayhome I was wondering about their feelings on snowflake/embryo adoption and the costs associated. It's way more expensive than I thought! One big program is $8000 for the program cost, $2000-3500 for a home study, and the frozen embryo transfer is not included. FET's at my clinic cost $3000. Plus, that only gets you three potential matches with donor families and your chance of the transfer proceeding to a live birth are probably only 40-50%. So you're paying at least $13k for one chance with one embryo.

From the religious side of it, I know many in SBC circles look down on IVF for a myriad of reasons beyond just the potential of embryos being discarded. Russell Moore is the president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the SBC. He and his wife dealt with infertility and adopted. He even wrote a book about his assertion that adoption was the only and best plan for infertility (Adopted for Life). Part of his issue with IVF, I believe, is that there is a potential of an embryo not surviving the thaw before transfer. Exposing a "baby" to that risk is apparently a non-starter for him and others. It appears, however, that they do advocate for embryo adoption as a better alternative to discarding embryos: https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/what-you-should-know-about-frozen-embryo-adoption

 

I think a private adoption or international adoption would be probably a better fit for their family, firstly because i am not sure if they would get aproved to foster being part of a reality tv show, i guess they could stop apearing (its not like they appear that much anyway) but maybe they dont want to, and second thing is if they would be willing to take older children that usually come with traumas and dificult life experiences. And even if they are i wonder if they would know how to deal with that, both Michael and Brandon come across as specially naive and sheltered.

About embryo adoption i agree that would be a great option. I dont see how it would contradict their beliefs, they are basically saving a life since they consider embryos the same as children. But would they know about this option? To be honest i didnt even know this was a thing until recently.

[QuiverDance]

On 2/22/2019 at 1:20 PM, llucie said:

I was just watching some youtube videos of a megafamilie who are foster parents and doesnt seem like they are rich at all. They ended of adopting a lot of the kids they fostered, seems like there is plenty of children in need in the system, a lot more than people willing to adopt.

It's expensive to get a newborn white baby from a teen mom.  It's NOT 30k plus to adopt.  

[just_ordinary]

I am always surprised how many poster would like to place a poor little soul into this mess.......

[Markie]

I could see Michaela and Brandon perhaps doing an adoption like Anna Duggar’s brother did. He and his (ex)wife adopted a baby from a distant family member. 

[lizzybee]

Fertility can sometimes turn around. It took me four years to get pregnant with my first after a chemical pregnancy. Then I was pregnant again 10 months later, and this pregnancy we just lost came only 8 months after I had my youngest. My OB told me once that sometimes after the body figures out what to do, it's easier to do it again. That might not be the case for Michael, but since her infertility doesn't have an explanation, it's not impossible that she'll one day conceive. 

If anyone follows The Modest Mom (Caroline Allen), she's had six or seven children, I believe, and her sister, who coincidentally is married to Caroline's husband's brother, was unable to have any children naturally. She adopted twin boys via foster to adopt and I believe recently they adopted a newborn daughter as well. 

Edited February 24, 2019 by lizzybee
Adding a link

[Hisey]

On 2/22/2019 at 11:14 AM, onyourwayhome said:

Adopting is incredibly hard and incredibly expensive. There are way more people wanting to adopt than babies being put up for adoption. It also costs $20,000 to $30,000 to do.

I've adopted twice and it wasn't incredibly hard or expensive.