Fight For Together / Crawford Family

[Maggie Mae]

1 hour ago, mango_fandango said:

Eden Hope is the most normal of those names. Seven? Memory? Dove? I can’t.

Rainer isn't too bad either. But Filia and Seven? WTH

[Trying to understand]

They have posted a couple new videos today.  One is basically saying why they are hiking.  They may be extreme, but they are not bad people.  I am a backpacker and led wilderness trips for children. I have also taken my nieces and nephews backpacking. My friend and I took her kids on their first trip when they wer 3 and 4.  When you are out in the elements like that you have to improvise. They are doing fine. They also clearly have a lot of backpacking experience.  They are keeping their kids warm and are making it fun for them.  They may have some different beliefs about how to raise children, but from watching many of their videos I don’t think those kids are being abused or isolated like so many of the families we snark on here.  Homeschooling can be done right, and from what I have seen they are doing things right.

[imokit]

@Trying to understand flicking a baby on the mouth isn't child abuse?

[Pammy]

24 minutes ago, imokit said:

@Trying to understand flicking a baby on the mouth isn't child abuse?

Well, it’s not in my jurisdiction — and, I’d venture to say — not in most.

It’s unkind and unnecessary, but abuse is a specific thing. Lumping everyone who has ever swatted or flicked a child in with people who beat and starve them isn’t a helpful vocabulary shift.

[Trying to understand]

14 minutes ago, Pammy said:

Well, it’s not in my jurisdiction — and, I’d venture to say — not in most.

It’s unkind and unnecessary, but abuse is a specific thing. Lumping everyone who has ever swatted or flicked a child in with people who beat and starve them isn’t a helpful vocabulary shift.

Yes this.  Flicking isn’t a nice thing to do, and it isn’t right. But he even admits that in the video.  It was a mistake.  

[AliceInFundyland]

Spoiler

 

I have issues with this. It indicates very strongly that they are following the methods espoused by the Pearls. I don’t give a shit how happy the kids look. I don’t give a shit if they didn’t do it to the older kids. They tried to get the baby to touch the fireplace on camera so they could show how to do it. And they admit the goal is to cause pain. Nope.

[artdecades]

On 4/4/2018 at 10:18 AM, AliceInFundyland said:

They are Pearl fans and use Scamaritan. I watched a video on training the baby (at 9 months) not to touch the fireplace. Also dad mentions flicking baby on the mouth while on the trail. He does also say he felt like it was too hard (he cut his lip)...

ok fuck these people. I think i hate this kind of fundie most because they seem so harmless with their tattoos and cigars and then they follow the pearls.

[Gobsmacked]

I didn't like this father right from the start when I watched the first hiking videos. 

He is full of himself, loves the sound of his own voice. My spidey senses tingled right from the start. 

I hope no more babies for them. 

[Maggie Mae]

On the day 28 video, the mom complains about a subreddit talking about them, and ends her little rant with "we had tent sex last night." How is this appropriate vlogging information? (And how has it taken them 28 days before that happened? Come on) 

[Palimpsest]

On 4/12/2018 at 5:07 PM, Pammy said:

Well, it’s not in my jurisdiction — and, I’d venture to say — not in most.

It’s unkind and unnecessary, but abuse is a specific thing. Lumping everyone who has ever swatted or flicked a child in with people who beat and starve them isn’t a helpful vocabulary shift.

No, flicking would not make the threshold for Child Protective Services, which is legally defined as serious abuse and neglect.  Also spanking (even with an object) is not illegal in most US states.  And that is regrettable and shows how far the US lags behind other countries.

In the US people can beat their children with impunity so long as they don't leave obvious marks or cause lasting and permanent injury.  Physically that is.  Emotional abuse is far harder to identify but causes enormous and lasting damage.

However, using pain (as the Crawfords happily admit), flicking, spanking, and encouraging your child to touch hot stoves as a learning tool certainly counts as abusive behavior.  These are out-dated, ugly and discredited methods of discipline and piss poor parenting at best. 

I agree with @AliceInFundyland .  Pearl methods are absolutely abusive.  They have resulted in the deaths of at least 3 children.  Lydia Schatz, Sean Paddock, and Hana Alemu (Williams).  Michael Pearl claims that children only die because people aren't using his methods "correctly."

 

And someone called CPS on the Crawfords again.  Not for the flicking but because of the supposed risks of the AT.  They were met by CPS, all questioned, and allowed to continue.

IMO, a waste of CPS time.  It is clear that they are experienced hikers, that the AT is well traveled and no more risky than many short-term hikes, and I would be fully supportive of any claims they made that this hike is educational.   It wouldn't be my choice to take a 2 year old on the AT, but it isn't abusive per se.

In a very Jeub-like fashion though, three of the kids volunteered to talk about the experience on video.

It was, like, upsetting because, like, they were afraid of being taken away.  Like, there are no other options.

 

 

On 4/23/2018 at 3:14 PM, Maggie Mae said:

On the day 28 video, the mom complains about a subreddit talking about them, and ends her little rant with "we had tent sex last night."

And they are still on the trail on day 35.  They hiked a couple of days with another family.  Tami woke up with a black eye though.  She has no idea how she got it.  In her defense, I once gave myself a black eye rubbing a mosquito bite near my eye but I bruise very easily.

What is more worrying to me is that the family seems to be getting more isolated socially.  In one video they talk about how 2017 was a very bad year.  They lost their church and her family cut them off.  They still have his parents.  His mom gave up her job to move close to them, but was very upset when they picked up and went on the AT within month.  If you can find the video where he interviews her parents, Mom is a riot.  I've lost it but will try to find it again.

And they lost Scamaritan coverage.  Scamaritan requires you to have a pastor recommendation and not to smoke.  Tami wouldn't give up her cigars and they have no church these days so they let their membership lapse.  They don't need health insurance.  They have enough money to pay for anything that happens.  In their dreams.

[MarblesMom]

Just when I think I have read all the weirdness on FJ, there is this.

[Black Aliss]

On 4/28/2018 at 8:58 AM, Palimpsest said:

And someone called CPS on the Crawfords again.  Not for the flicking but because of the supposed risks of the AT.  They were met by CPS, all questioned, and allowed to continue.

IMO, a waste of CPS time.  It is clear that they are experienced hikers, that the AT is well traveled and no more risky than many short-term hikes, and I would be fully supportive of any claims they made that this hike is educational.   It wouldn't be my choice to take a 2 year old on the AT, but it isn't abusive per se.

 

 

Last year a couple completed the AT with their infant daughter. AFAIK, no one called CPS on them but they were criticized for damn near everything, including "She's spending too much time in the backpack. She needs to get out and walk (this, before she was walking)."  Somehow she managed to learn to walk while on the trail.

My feeling is you don't put your life on the internet if you can't handle the trolls, but calling CPS because someone makes life choices that are different from your own is ridiculous.

For the curious, https://thedirtbagbaby.com/

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Black Aliss
added link to blog

[Trying to understand]

They posted on Instagram that they got evacuated due to forest fires.  To be clear every hiker in the section they were in (Virginia) has been evacuated because of the fires. If anything causes them to quit I think this will. They are currently waiting for the go ahead from the National Park Service to be allowed to continue.  The fires have to be put out or at least out of danger from the trail.  Again all hikers in this area have been mandated to evacuate.  Also on another note they are about 2-3 weeks behind on their videos but they said they have “about 20” videos that are edited that haven’t been posted.  Ben the father does the editing along with Seven (13 year old boy) and Dove (16 year old girl). It’s seriously weird that they let their children edit when they talk about sex and other inappropriate topics. 

[Lurky]

Wait, are they hiking the AT with 6 kids and without health insurance?? 

ETA I was going to ask "what if one of the kids gets scratched and needs a tetanus shot?" but then I wonder if Fundies believe in tetanus jabs?  I'm UK, so there's the NHS if anything goes wrong hiking here, and mountain rescue etc etc, but I can't imagine doing something like this with no safety net.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Lurky

[Black Aliss]

3 hours ago, Lurky said:

Wait, are they hiking the AT with 6 kids and without health insurance?? 

ETA I was going to ask "what if one of the kids gets scratched and needs a tetanus shot?" but then I wonder if Fundies believe in tetanus jabs?  I'm UK, so there's the NHS if anything goes wrong hiking here, and mountain rescue etc etc, but I can't imagine doing something like this with no safety net.

Who needs tetanus vaccine when you have a full rack of Doterra Essential Oils?

We don't have National Health in the US but there are scores of volunteers, called trail angels, on all the border-to-border trails. Typically these trail angels will meet you and take you into town to pick up your resupply boxes, feed you hot food, let you take a shower at their house, maybe do laundry. But they are also available to help in the event of an emergency, including driving thru-hikers from a road crossing to the nearest ER if necessary.

[AliceInFundyland]

As per their instagram - They took a break from the AT and went to go run a marathon. (I guess when the fires held them up)

This proved a bit problematic.

Spoiler

fightfortogether3 weeks ago we decided to take a break from the Appalachian Trail and drive 8 hours home to blue blaze the Flying Pig Marathon. There were a few problems. We didn't have shoes that fit us. This meant we all wore brand new shoes, for the first time, on race day. Oh and also, We hadn't run in more than 3 months and we weren't sure how trail fitness would translate to road running. Well, we found out the hard way. The first 20 miles flew by but the last 6 were the most painful any of us have ever had. We all agreed the race was a bad idea and would never do it again. But then we all also agreed, we didn't regret it and were glad we came home. In the midst of the pain and cramping, we set a new PR of 6 hours, 17 minutes, beating our old record by 40 minutes. Happy to be a part of a family that can do hard things, make mistakes, experiment, learn, and grow closer through all of it.

 

 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@AliceInFundyland, did they mention which family members ran in the marathon? Not the kids, I hope?

[Anonymousguest]

7 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

@AliceInFundyland, did they mention which family members ran in the marathon? Not the kids, I hope?

All of them except the baby. It's not their first marathon. 

I think the last thing I would want to do as a break from walking 3000 miles is run a marathon, they are truly nuts. 

[Gobsmacked]

They may have no church to attend, the father may not be a 'Pastor', but his voice sounds too much like pp's when he speaks for me to trust him. 

My spidey senses are tingling again. How do they survive financially? 

[AliceInFundyland]

3 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

They may have no church to attend, the father may not be a 'Pastor', but his voice sounds too much like pp's when he speaks for me to trust him. 

My spidey senses are tingling again. How do they survive financially? 

I’ve been listening to him for a month now. He’s an egomaniacal douchecanoe, much like all of our patriarchs. As much as he and Kami style themselves a family operation, I believe he has ideas and they all come to see the bright side.

A plethora of investment properties and ventures. Also used to be a pro blackjack player. No debt. 

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

My spidey senses are tingling again. How do they survive financially? 

They seem to have gobs of money.  Earned through blackjack, web start ups, and real estate investments.

They also tried to grift quite recently on the basis that they were spending 30 hours a week on their videos.  It went over like a lead balloon with their followers.  They struck out there.  

 

[Gobsmacked]

On 12 April 2018 at 10:32 PM, Trying to understand said:

Yes this.  Flicking isn’t a nice thing to do, and it isn’t right. But he even admits that in the video.  It was a mistake.  

Hopefully one he will not be repeating. 

[usedbicycle]

I have conflicting feelings about this family... I can't stand Ben either (agree with the PP voice) but part of me likes what they stand for. Hear me out!

I believe that outdoors/wilderness training is incredibly empowering for kids. I think a 7 year-old is capable of walking 10 miles a day (15+ is pushing it though). I also think that as a society, we've become slightly too overprotective of our kids and of their comfort, preventing them from accomplishing things that promote self-esteem and develop skills. It's kind of like the Montessori approach... let young children learn how to use adult tools (like a knife or matches), and they'll grow up to be cautious and trust in their abilities. I personally would have loved to walk the AT as a kid rather than being stuck in school.

I notice that their kids are funny, witty and seem well-adjusted. At least they don't seem to be edited to appear perfect and happy all the time. Kami seems nice but a little aloof. She's doesn't strike me as a strong mother figure to her kids. Ben is the true patriarch and everyone does as he says. Their camping shenanigans wouldn't bother me at all if it's weren't for the obvious power imbalance and Ben's ego... 

Anyway, I enjoy following them and I'm genuinely curious if they'll finish the AT at some point.

[DangerNoodle]

The more videos I watch, the more my opinion goes down. They changed their story on the reason they started for hiking for one. Originally it was about spending time working together as a family. Now the reason they claim they started is all the awesome people they meet along the way. And the longer I think about it, the sader it is they rehomed all those pets. A lot of their supporters and commenters are trash. 

 

After the CPS visit video their were a ton of anti government/anti LE hysterical comments. I don't think they did anything to deserve a CPS visit. But let's not lose our fucking minds.

 

Then a bunch of people we an 'us verses them' mentality about homeschooling. 'Look how much better your kids are then those terrible public school kids.' Fuck all of that. 

[Petronella]

40 minutes ago, DangerNoodle said:

The more videos I watch, the more my opinion goes down. They changed their story on the reason they started for hiking for one. Originally it was about spending time working together as a family. Now the reason they claim they started is all the awesome people they meet along the way.

Speaking only to this specific comment about their "changed story":

Most big decisions are undertaken for a complex multitude of reasons. I see nothing suspicious or contradictory in citing "family togetherness" on one occasion and "meeting great people" on another.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Petronella