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HideousGreenShirt

Sex Ed

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L1o2u3

Well, the Intended for Pleasure is avaibale as a pdf on the internet... :D http://intermin.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Intended-for-Pleasure_-Sex-Tech-Ed-Wheat.pdf

Edit: I just had a look inside and it has a section for Stretching the Hymen... wtf... which the doctor could do before the wedding night... Not awkward or uncomfortable at all... and in most cases, the hymen is just fine if you make sure she's wet enough, relaxed, comfortable and maybe some lube... If I were a fundie bride waiting for my husband, I wouldn't want a (male) doctor messing around with my private parts. Like, I'm not a fundie bride and still I prefer female gynecologists. 

I wonder if they get to know real NFP though. Or if they just use the rhythm method and maybe take their temps, too. Because symptothermal NFP can contain self-examination of the cervix. And to do that, you need to insert a finger into your vagina :D Maybe that's too close to masturbation? 

I know that Cheryl Long (The Long Way To Go, Treasures from a Shoebox) said that she told each child what they needed to know about their own bodily changes during puberty and then the rest was shared before the wedding. 

But some of the Christian abstinence books also mention oral sex and passionately making out... especially those meant for highschool and college age girls. They assume you know about these things, because they don't explain what it is... so basically they build on secular sex ed :D I have read a few of those... The Bride Wore White, 21 Myths (even good) Girls Believe About Sex and stuff like that. 

 

Edited by L1o2u3
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Nargus
4 hours ago, L1o2u3 said:

Well, the Intended for Pleasure is avaibale as a pdf on the internet... :D http://intermin.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Intended-for-Pleasure_-Sex-Tech-Ed-Wheat.pdf

Edit: I just had a look inside and it has a section for Stretching the Hymen... wtf... which the doctor could do before the wedding night... Not awkward or uncomfortable at all... and in most cases, the hymen is just fine if you make sure she's wet enough, relaxed, comfortable and maybe some lube... If I were a fundie bride waiting for my husband, I wouldn't want a (male) doctor messing around with my private parts. Like, I'm not a fundie bride and still I prefer female gynecologists. 

I wonder if they get to know real NFP though. Or if they just use the rhythm method and maybe take their temps, too. Because symptothermal NFP can contain self-examination of the cervix. And to do that, you need to insert a finger into your vagina :D Maybe that's too close to masturbation? 

I know that Cheryl Long (The Long Way To Go, Treasures from a Shoebox) said that she told each child what they needed to know about their own bodily changes during puberty and then the rest was shared before the wedding. 

But some of the Christian abstinence books also mention oral sex and passionately making out... especially those meant for highschool and college age girls. They assume you know about these things, because they don't explain what it is... so basically they build on secular sex ed :D I have read a few of those... The Bride Wore White, 21 Myths (even good) Girls Believe About Sex and stuff like that. 

 

I took a quick skim through...there's actually a lot more decent info in there than I expected.

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HarleyQuinn

Didn't Anna's brother say that entire lego bit was staged and that wasn't the first time they had the actual talk?

Re: sex ed, my school took the "scare you away from  having sex by showing you photos of people with STDs approach" which was pretty effective for a while. :pb_lol: It also made watching Mean Girls even funnier when the sex ed teacher was like "Don't have sex. You will get pregnant and die..alright, everyone grab some rubbers." 

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Mama Mia
3 hours ago, Nargus said:

I took a quick skim through...there's actually a lot more decent info in there than I expected.

Wow, skimming through, I’m sure there’s some objectionable material somewhere - but overall it is very thorough, and detailed and focuses extensively on the importance of MUTUAL pleasure. The coverage of PMS was a pleasant surprise - explanation of what it can be, how it can vary, that it is a physical issue, etc... Really some of the sections appear more detailed than my college Human Sexuality Course. 

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Daisy0322

My schools sex Ed was awful! Used gum and dirty t shirt analogies were nothing compared to the final project! (Drum roll) "sex lottery". We all got "randomly" assigned a consequence from having pre marital sex. There was STDs, broken heart, etc but of course I got unplanned pregnancy. That meant I got to take a baby simulator home over the long weekend (3 nights, 3.5 days). It cried all night, you had to feed it, change it, make sure it was dressed according to the weather because it was temp sensitive, the works. Like 50% of my grade rode on this little doll too. You'd get points deducted if it cries too long or got cold or something. And it could fucking sense how long it was held for so you lost points if you neglected it by only picking it up to feed it or whatever too. 

I didn't hate it because I love babies and it was kinda fun for the first couple days but I know I got "randomly selected" because I refused to sign the virgin club pact.

I don't remember as well what the others had to do but i think if you got the STD one you had to do a presentation on your assigned STD and if you got heart break you wrote a fake diary about your slutty ways and deep remorse then ended it with a "commitment letter" to your future spouse. 

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prayawaythefundie

Like some previous posters, I‘m pleasently surprised by the quality of the book. I read parts of the chapters on foreplay and arousal, the one on women having trouble with orgams during sexual intercourse and the part about the pill. It seems well researched and pretty balanced for something the Duggars read. Of course being married is a given for the author and there are some bible quotes but other than that my heathen self could have made use of that book in my very early twenties. 

I think the biggest problem with the book might be that fundies give it to their children a little too late: on their wedding day! There is no way two sheltered virgins read and understand that book on their wedding night before already having made some big mistakes mentioned due to impatience and the glorification of the wedding night in their circles.

They should consider reading this while engaged but who am I kidding, they might get aroused and - spaghetti monster forbid - touch themselves. The horror!

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Meggo
On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 2:02 PM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Mine was along those lines as well, but more of we don't talk about such things and you don't do such things so just pretend it doesn't happen, don't talk about it, to think about it don't even hint about it. The most we got was you don't touch anyone of the opposite sex until you are married and ONLY do that to make babies other wise SIN.  Very hard core old school catholic.  These lack of talking and mentioning didn't dissuade any of my siblings or cousins (save for 1) from being normal horny teens and almost normal sexually active adults.  We all (except the 1) used birth control while most of them are "pro-life" they aren't pro birth control, as long as you pay for it yourself.   

Are you me? Or maybe a relative? 

I found out where babies came from because in grade 3, my friend had a book and her MOM told me because mine never did. (I thought you got pregnant from kissing). I never ever heard anything about sex or periods or anything from her. When I started my period - I seriously thought I was dying - she sighed and said I could skip camp that day. In high school - I was accused of having sex because I had a boyfriend and wasn't wearing beige underwear. (sigh... may I never do this to my kid..). I was told in high school that kisses should be saved for prom - and sex should be saved for marriage - and kids were a punishment for sex. 
My mother also gave me some SERIOUS grief when I - at the age of 24 - had my boyfriend spend the night. At my own apartment. That I paid for - when I hadn't lived at home for six years. 
Ugh. 
 

So I've never been all that comfortable - but I'm trying to break the cycle with my son. I called his bits by their proper name from day one (so that I could get used to saying it before he could really understand). We say it's private - and if he wants to touch it- he should probably go to his room to do that. (in a very nonchalant way- not a punishing way. As opposed to my parents who would have sent me off to a nunnery if they'd known what I was up to)  We say pee & poop - and he gives my mom a baffled look when she asks if he needs to go BM. 

 

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JillRodsEyeliner

I'm pretty sure it went like this.

 

Spoiler

Screenshot_2018-04-06-09-55-23.png

 

Spoiler

Screenshot_2018-04-06-09-53-11.png

 

Edited by Jellybean
Removed empty spoiler box
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allthegoodnamesrgone
31 minutes ago, Meggo said:

Are you me? Or maybe a relative? 

I found out where babies came from because in grade 3, my friend had a book and her MOM told me because mine never did. (I thought you got pregnant from kissing). I never ever heard anything about sex or periods or anything from her. When I started my period - I seriously thought I was dying - she sighed and said I could skip camp that day. In high school - I was accused of having sex because I had a boyfriend and wasn't wearing beige underwear. (sigh... may I never do this to my kid..). I was told in high school that kisses should be saved for prom - and sex should be saved for marriage - and kids were a punishment for sex. 
My mother also gave me some SERIOUS grief when I - at the age of 24 - had my boyfriend spend the night. At my own apartment. That I paid for - when I hadn't lived at home for six years. 
Ugh. 
 

So I've never been all that comfortable - but I'm trying to break the cycle with my son. I called his bits by their proper name from day one (so that I could get used to saying it before he could really understand). We say it's private - and if he wants to touch it- he should probably go to his room to do that. (in a very nonchalant way- not a punishing way. As opposed to my parents who would have sent me off to a nunnery if they'd known what I was up to)  We say pee & poop - and he gives my mom a baffled look when she asks if he needs to go BM. 

I was VERY open with my kids, from a young age, it got easier as they got older, they knew everything and knew they could talk to us about anything, and they do. You got more info about kissing and sex than I did, it was seriously NOT TALKED ABOUT, JUST NO!  My mom was too uptight, and it was like many other topics, a no go zone, just don't mention it and it doesn't happen.

We did the private bits thing as well.  I recall the 1st time it really came up DD was about 4 and sitting on the living room floor checking things out, and I asked her what she was doing and she just said "looking" I told her well she needed to do her looking in her bedroom or the bathroom with the door closed, as that was "private". I also added it was OK what she was doing, but it was only for her to do and look at, not others, unless mommy says it is ok" (if she needed to be seen by a doctor or something).  I kept it age appropriate, she was only 4 so that was enough info for her at the time, as they both got older we gave more information. We bought them both books on their growing bodies when they were around 9/10 years old and said that they were. THEIR books to read and look at and ask us any questions they have. We told DS he could talk to his dad only if he was more comfortable and DD me if she was more comfortable, but we were BOTH willing to answer questions. We told them if they came to one of us it would be between us unless we felt the other parent needed to know and for the most part we've never needed to know. DS had to go to the doctor to have something checked, I needed to know that but other than that, its personal so we respected their privacy.  Now my kids are 20 & 18 so I've run the gauntlet of adolescences, this was all done over the course of many years, it didn't all happen in one day.   

Edited by allthegoodnamesrgone

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Meggo

I'm also very much the "it's YOUR body. So if you tell someone no - that means no."  Including Momma or Bampa tickling you - if you say no - we stop. Unless and until you say go (he loves being tickled). If you don't want me to touch your hand when you have a splinter - we can talk about HOW to touch the hand and where to touch it. Can I just hold your hand like this in the light but NOT touch? It's HIS body. I'm just a temporary caretaker.

And when we were at the docs last month the doctor said he needed to see my son's pen1s and my son refused to take his pants down. I said "okay - there ya go." The doc (thankfully) was like "Oh - okay. Mom, everything look okay down there?" 
I said "yep - looks fine to me" and we were done. 

Now - that said - my son has been known to grind himself into the carpet in kindy (I think to fall asleep, frankly) and has been known to pull his pants down at daycare but he KNOWS that's private and the only people who should see his pen1s or his "bum bum" (his phrase - I just say bum) is Momma, Daddy, and the doctor. And maybe a teacher if they're helping him change his pants. But he's five.

 

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justmy2cents
1 hour ago, prayawaythefundie said:

I think the biggest problem with the book might be that fundies give it to their children a little too late: on their wedding day! There is no way two sheltered virgins read and understand that book on their wedding night before already having made some big mistakes mentioned due to impatience and the glorification of the wedding night in their circles.

They should consider reading this while engaged but who am I kidding, they might get aroused and - spaghetti monster forbid - touch themselves. The horror!

Have they said that they give them the book only on their wedding day? I was under the impression that they received this information as part of the marriage counseling from the parents in the lead up to the wedding. Getting it that same day would most definitely be too late.

Then again, Joe thought kissing Kendra on the lips would feel like kissing a baby's forehead.:pb_lol:

Edited by justmy2cents

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Ivycoveredtower
5 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

Have they said that they give them the book only on their wedding day? I was under the impression that they received this information as part of the marriage counseling from the parents in the lead up to the wedding. Getting it that same day would most definitely be too late.

Then again, Joe thought kissing Kendra on the lips would feel like kissing a baby's forehead.:pb_lol:

well we saw Josh getting it on his wedding day. now if that was staged or not who really knows 

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justmy2cents
20 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

well we saw Josh getting it on his wedding day. now if that was staged or not who really knows 

We know it was staged. Anna's brother-in-law was on FJ years ago and said it was. That was Rebecca's ex. He said that's why Josh was laughing throughout that scene.

Edited by justmy2cents

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CaricatureQualities
1 hour ago, justmy2cents said:

Have they said that they give them the book only on their wedding day? I was under the impression that they received this information as part of the marriage counseling from the parents in the lead up to the wedding. Getting it that same day would most definitely be too late.

Then again, Joe thought kissing Kendra on the lips would feel like kissing a baby's forehead.:pb_lol:

In the forward of the Intended for Pleasure it recommends giving the book to your children when they are engaged and telling them to read the first 100 pages and save the rest for a bit later except for the chapter on STD's which should be read now. (I'm glad they're promoting knowledge over assumption that good celibate christians would never have to know about that in the first place.)

I guess Joe and Kendra probably had the book but decided to wait on opening it so as to not get too excited. At least they have a copy. They would say they have the rest of their lives together to figure it all out together...I'm just glad they have a resource that actually mentions and promotes female orgasms and the over all enjoyment of sex. It's one of the rare Duggar resources (maybe only?) that seems legit. Dr. Ed Wheat seems like a dude who really saw the problems of negative and evil associations with sex within his religion and sincerely tried to steer this in a different direction for the health of his community (Christians). 

When I first heard of this book (in A Love that Multiplies) I thought for sure that it would be some load of nonsense that endorsed biblical patriarchy or was affiliated with the IBLP or something ...it predates IPLB though, this book was a response to the sexual revolution of the 60's and Dr. Ed didn't want Christians to be left out completely and he didn't want married Christian women to go their whole lives not even knowing what an orgasm was or thinking they didn't deserve sexual pleasure. Yay for this guy.

Ben and Jessa need to name their next boy Eddie if their theme is heroes of the Christian faith because I think Dr. Ed Wheat might be one.

Edited by CaricatureQualities

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AliceInFundyland

I have no idea what sex ed was like at my high school. I had the option to test out of health and I did so. I suspect it was probably decent enough. My district was an upper middle class, educated, area.

Here’s what I am reflecting on. The four years I was in hs, in the mid 90s, in suburban, churchy Kansas, nobody was visibly pregnant. My school had about 1200 people. I wish I knew what the availability of abortion services was like back then. I can’t imagine it was the easiest place in the country to get one.

Would y’all have known where to go for an abortion in high school?

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freshlemonade

In one of the more recent episodes of CO they ask JoKen about this.  I can't remember the wording, but I remember thinking "Wow they're actually asking some questions that it would be interesting to hear the answer to."  It was pretty awkward but Joe said something to the affect of "we're not going to learn too much beforehand, we'd like to learn together as we go...."

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louisa05
13 minutes ago, freshlemonade said:

In one of the more recent episodes of CO they ask JoKen about this.  I can't remember the wording, but I remember thinking "Wow they're actually asking some questions that it would be interesting to hear the answer to."  It was pretty awkward but Joe said something to the affect of "we're not going to learn too much beforehand, we'd like to learn together as we go...."

Were they really allowed to have a conversation about sex prior to the wedding, though? And even if they were, it seems like the presence of a chaperone (or someone else reading it if it was via text or email) would make it extra awkward. 

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Ivycoveredtower
9 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Were they really allowed to have a conversation about sex prior to the wedding, though? And even if they were, it seems like the presence of a chaperone (or someone else reading it if it was via text or email) would make it extra awkward. 

I believe they said something like they had people they could talk to. I assuming that means just JIm Bob and Michelle and the pastor and Christina. 

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louisa05
24 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I believe they said something like they had people they could talk to. I assuming that means just JIm Bob and Michelle and the pastor and Christina. 

But are they actually allowed to discuss it with each other? And having that discussion with your parents present...holy awkward, Batman! No, thank you. 

 

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Ivycoveredtower
2 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

But are they actually allowed to discuss it with each other? And having that discussion with your parents present...holy awkward, Batman! No, thank you. 

 

who knows we do know that they have chaperones up until they walk down the aisle though so even if they could they would always have others around. 

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Meggo
1 hour ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I have no idea what sex ed was like at my high school. I had the option to test out of health and I did so. I suspect it was probably decent enough. My district was an upper middle class, educated, area.

Here’s what I am reflecting on. The four years I was in hs, in the mid 90s, in suburban, churchy Kansas, nobody was visibly pregnant. My school had about 1200 people. I wish I knew what the availability of abortion services was like back then. I can’t imagine it was the easiest place in the country to get one.

Would y’all have known where to go for an abortion in high school?

My high school was a Catholic all girls high school. I think I remember our sex ed being really rather... liberal. The woman who taught health was maybe 10-12 years older than us, was newly married, was also the basketball coach and from what I'm told (I don't remember this but whatever) - she would take a class or two and close the door and just lay it on the line. How not to get pregnant, how to protect yourself from STDs (this was late 80s/early 90s - so AIDS was a HUGE topic). And she'd tell us that we couldn't TELL anyone that we were getting the real scoop. She did teach by the book too - but had these other off the book sessions. 

I wouldn't have known where to get an abortion - but I could have found out. I know classmates did get abortions (I mostly learned later - none of my circle did but the whole school was 450 girls - I'm sure someone did) and I'm pretty certain one of the guidance counselors would have told us. On the sly. 
We did have a few people who had babies. I know a guy friend of mine got his girlfriend pregnant (she was 16, he was 15) and her parents pushed her to have an abortion. A girl who graduated 3 years ahead of me had her baby with her boyfriend. And I think there was one girl (I found out MUCH later) who had a few abortions. I still feel really bad about that. I don't entirely know her story - but man I wish someone had been able to step in and get her some help. (I didn't know - and I barely knew her) 

 

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justmy2cents
3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

But are they actually allowed to discuss it with each other? And having that discussion with your parents present...holy awkward, Batman! No, thank you. 

 

I think it was brought up during a talking head. Kendra wasn't present.

joe seemed to not want to think about it too much so as not to stir up desires that could not be righteously fulfilled at the moment.

Edited by justmy2cents

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JillRodsEyeliner
2 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

I think it was brought up during a talking head. Kendra wasn't present.

joe seemed to not want to think about it too much so as not to stir up desires that could not be righteously fulfilled at the moment.

He might have spilt his "seed" if he thought those unholy thoughts before marriage. He would have spent time in the prayer closet.

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SapphireSlytherin
2 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

righteously fulfilled at the moment.

So, forgive me if this is way out of bounds but... are we seriously supposed to believe that NONE of these children kidults have masturbated/orgasmed prior to marriage?

Edited by SapphireSlytherin

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Ivycoveredtower
1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

So, forgive me if this is way out of bounds but... are we seriously supposed to believe that NONE of these children kidults have masturbated/orgasmed prior to marriage?

well according to rumor that floats around the internet one of the boys was caught doing that and Jim Bob tied his hands together. now how true that is we'll probably never know. 

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