Sex Ed

[NakedKnees]

Without getting too detailed... yes, I'm certain some of these fundie kids discover masturbation and orgasm before marriage. I just hope they don't suffer much over it (although I doubt that's the case, since the "can't be righteously fulfilled" concept would make me feel so guilty).

I might be projecting though, since I admit I was feelin' myself (in private) since before I understood that's what I was doing. I get the impression that's not uncommon.

[HideousGreenShirt]

Thank you for posting @fundiesfordays! I've often wondered about guilt/emotions about sex after marriage in fundie relationships. They're told for so long even thinking about it is sinful so suddenly being totally alone and allowed to get naked seems like a lot of pressure. Such a huge, instant change to get your brain around.

Re: the pill and the Duggars blaming it for miscarriages, do we think JB and Michelle actually explained what the pill is and how it works or did they just claim "ungodly, unwise choices" and shelter their kids further?

I agree with previous posters both that the girls know more than the guys and also that they must have some knowledge of cycle tracking/fertility. Whether they actually understand what is happening biologically is another question.

Assuming the Duggars do still bother handing this book out when their kids get married, I hope they get it at engagement and are able to actually ask questions if they need to.

[fundiesfordays]

I highly doubt JB and Michelle explained how the pill actually works. That would mean they would have to same something positive about it, even if they just said it regulates your cycle. 

You know, they may not even know how it works. Didn't they say their doctor told them the pill killed their baby? If so, maybe they haven't had that knowledge corrected since then nor ever questioned it. Unquestioned obedience runs rampant in their cult.

There are plenty of people out there who aren't fundie who don't know how a lot of contraception works. I had a lovely conversation with my dad a while back when the first women's march happened explaining that taking the morning after pill isn't murder.

 

[coffeequeen]

I would describe my upbringing as fundie-lite... my mom when through stages of being kinda normal conservative Christian to holier than thou fundie.  That roller coaster was great... 

My experience with sex-ed was pretty different than most of my friends/classmates.  Both my parents were certified Why-No teachers (thankfully, they never taught at my school).  I knew about the mechanics, fertility, pregnancy prevention, etc before I ever went through puberty.  My sister and I were allowed birth control as teens (for other issues, not because we were necessarily sexually active).  i was educated on different sex-acts (masturbation, oral, intercourse).  I knew that I could go to the doctor for BC and abortion and per HIPAA- my parents wouldn't find out (my parents work for a large insurance company.  I knew that planB was available and where I could get it.  

My parents taught us all of this even though abstinence was expected.  But I am 28 and my parents at 46 and 44-  obviously, the math doesn't add up... Even though we were expected to save ourselves until marriage, my parents realized that doesn't always happen, and they wanted us to be as educated as possible to make safe decisions.  The three of us have been fortunate enough to have never had any pregnancy or STD scares- but we were also taught that even though we may use every prevention method available, accidents still happen and there are multiple ways to handle those accidents.  

Even though my parents are pro-life, my mom told us early on that if we ever had an unplanned pregnancy, she would support any decision we made.  We were also taught that a baby wasn't a reason to jump into a marriage.  

I realize that my experience is the not the norm in most fundie-ish circles, but I just wanted to say that some parents do see the big picture, and while I doubt the Duggars received anywhere close to the sex-ed I was given, I am hopeful that other fundie/conservative Christians were given the same information my siblings and I were. 

[vspielman]

I remember on the Anna/Smuggar wedding episode - way back when.  Anna was being interviewed at the church - she was ironing or some such, and she told the camera something to the effect that "my mom sat down and had a talk with me a few weeks ago about things. I don't think that is information that you need to have until you need to have it."  That always stuck with me, because, on one hand, I was glad that at least there was some kind of information passed along to  her, but I also found that attitude rather alarming because most intelligent people would agree that kind of information is  important starting at young ages.

[Sidehugs]

Hello everyone first post here. 

At the beginning of this thread it was mentioned that Michelle’s cycle was tracked on the calendar, was this on their show? Also it said “they watched it” are you talking about the children? I’m sorry I have never watched the show just discovered them last year. Thank you

This a great forum and wish I could read here more often.

[Victorian Christmas]

5 minutes ago, Sidehugs said:

Hello everyone first post here. 

At the beginning of this thread it was mentioned that Michelle’s cycle was tracked on the calendar, was this on their show? Also it said “they watched it” are you talking about the children? I’m sorry I have never watched the show just discovered them last year. Thank you

This a great forum and wish I could read here more often.

Yes it was discussed on the TV show the girls kept checking the calendar and they even showed the calendar on the show.

[smittykins]

Was Dr. Wheat Michelle's doctor at one point(and possibly the one who told her and JB that the Pill might have caused her miscarriage with J-Caleb?

[Mama Mia]

On 4/9/2018 at 1:09 PM, fundiesfordays said:

I highly doubt JB and Michelle explained how the pill actually works. That would mean they would have to same something positive about it, even if they just said it regulates your cycle. 

You know, they may not even know how it works. Didn't they say their doctor told them the pill killed their baby? If so, maybe they haven't had that knowledge corrected since then nor ever questioned it. Unquestioned obedience runs rampant in their cult.

There are plenty of people out there who aren't fundie who don't know how a lot of contraception works. I had a lovely conversation with my dad a while back when the first women's march happened explaining that taking the morning after pill isn't murder.

 

They seem to cover at least some birth control basics in their Sex Ed book.

I think something to remember when thinking about their view towards the pill and miscarriage - at the time of that pregnancy the prevailing view WAS that the pill increased the RISK of miscarriage. Now they say it doesn’t ( but, interestingly, long erm use may increase the risk of future miscarriages - and the development of autoimmune disease ) but in the 80’s they definitely did say it was a risk - along with blood clots, breast tenderness, moodiness, etc..etc... They also said it could increase your risk of birth defects if you did conceive while on the pill.

Now obviously that doesn’t mean that’s what Michelle SHOULD have latched on to as the cause. There are many, many, MANY things that can increase risk - and generally it is caused by absolutely nothing anyone did. It just happened. But often after a pregnancy loss a woman will find something to blame it on. To make it make more sense. Her religious beliefs made the pill a logical - if misguided- choice.

[Knight of Ni]

Using a fertility calendar doesn’t seem like it’s leaving it up to God like they claimed. What they were doing is called actively trying to get pregnant. Leaving it up to God would be to have sex when they felt like it and if Michelle happened to get pregnant then good but if not that’s ok too. 

[candygirl200413]

This!^^ I never understood that thought process. Or if you had complications during the births that God might've wanted you to pump the breaks.

[CaricatureQualities]

On 4/12/2018 at 2:30 PM, smittykins said:

Was Dr. Wheat Michelle's doctor at one point(and possibly the one who told her and JB that the Pill might have caused her miscarriage with J-Caleb?

Good question. Yes! He was their doctor. In A Love the Multiplies they write that he was a well known Christian author and their family doctor at the beginning of their marriage. He counseled them and gave them his books and audio-books. They recommend Love Life for Every Married Couple and Intended for Pleasure. He taught them from a medical and spiritual perspective how to maximize their special time together as a couple. (I am paraphrasing the 2 paragraphs he is mentioned... Page 269 (hehe).

They do not mention him in regards to their birth control views and he may not have been their doc at the time they took those views which was a few years into their marriage, they say he was their doc before they were married and presumably in the beginning. They used BC at that time.

Wheat's book(IFP) is available on PDF and there is a whole wack of info about contraceptive methods in it. I skimmed it, he lists a bunch of pros and cons with the pill, as with other methods. Overall he gives a lot of information but doesn't seem to take a personal stance on what people should or should not do as far as contraceptive methods. He does state the reasons the pill is not popular with the pro-life and leaves room for peoples personal convictions. Maybe too much room? I don't know if he put that the anti-pill conviction in their head (I don't think so) but he certainly gives info that supports it and leaves them the room for that spiritual conviction. He does not seem to be specifically opposed to the pill or contraception, seems for family planning and the consideration and use of different methods and at least lists the woman's safety first.

All that said though, I don't know how  influential he was with them on that issue and don't want to champion him too much as I am just skimming this stuff. It is possible he caused and very much legitimized that position. But there does seems to be a lot of good with any bad and people like the Duggars are gonna go their own way regardless I think. He is now 91 and retired, btw.

[meowfundiecatz]

So, my circles, most girls begin their sex education around the age of 10. Some moms are starting earlier since girls are developing sooner. It also can depend on how many children mom has. It usually begins with something like passport to purity or just a basic talk. Almost every girl I know is taught about their cycle in detail because you learn to track your cycle. Birth control is usually discussed and can be used as part of science in home school, although that may be something discussed later on, like between 14-16. Some mothers I know don't discuss specifics of sex, some do. Some wait until their daughters are older. Some also discuss birth control other than the pill, some don't. Not everyone I know, of course, holds to a no BC rule. But many do hold to a "no chemical BC" philosophy.

(Boys also get a sex talk, usually around the same age or a bit younger. Thankfully we are in a circle that doesn't just say "porn is bad!" But actually goes further than that, like, stop blaming girls for your lust. I think it has helped many men from developing porn issues from the beginning. It also helps those awkward church body shaming things that happen, although many in our church are "modest." Not a ton of skirt wearers, although I am.)

Our pastors usually do recommend (and recommended to Mr. Meow and I) some specific sex books. One couple I know read through "Sheet Music" before they were married. Because our pre-marital counseling was non-conventional, we didn't go over any books with our pastor, but not long after we were married he gave us a copy of "A Celebration of Sex."  We discussed sex after we were engaged during a car ride. (We didn't do the whole chaperone thing).

"Intended for Pleasure" is a decent book. A least (some) fundies do try for good sex. I recommend at least the first part of the book to anyone I know who I have a good enough friendship with who is engaged and hasn't had sex before. Basically for the first time info.

I do  have a fundie friend who has (as far as I know) never had an orgasm. So sad. But I have many friends with my same beliefs who have great sex.

As far as the no BC thing with the Duggars, I believe their source was probably Dr. Wheat, but also Randy Alcorn. He's a fun one. However, I can't snark because I do agree with him (and completely understand why people don't).

[Daisy0322]

4 hours ago, meowfundiecatz said:

So, my circles, most girls begin their sex education around the age of 10. Some moms are starting earlier since girls are developing sooner. It also can depend on how many children mom has. It usually begins with something like passport to purity or just a basic talk. 

That's at least better than my mom lol the only thing I remember her saying is not to have sex on the first date or they'd probably not call you again lol

[meowfundiecatz]

1 hour ago, Daisy0322 said:

That's at least better than my mom lol the only thing I remember her saying is not to have sex on the first date or they'd probably not call you again lol

I didn't grow up this way. My mom asked me when I was 10 if I wanted to know where babies came from. I already knew by then and said no. She never told me. She also never told me about periods. I had to learn from a girl scout handbook.

[L1o2u3]

Well, getting pregnant on the pill and then taking it for a while until you notice the pregnancy doesn't lead to malformations and miscarriages (according to what I found on the internet). But they still might change the baby in more subtle ways. 

I especially looked for effects of estrogen in male fetal development because that's what many pills contain. These articles are not about the pill, but I'm wondering if an estrogen pill would have similar effects on a male baby. 

Quote

Epidemiological, clinical, and experimental studies have suggested that excessive exposure to estrogens and xenoestrogens during fetal and neonatal development may induce testicular developmental disorders, leading to alterations in the adult male fertility.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17008464

Quote

Endocrine disruptors (e.g., polychlorinated biphenyls [PCBs], dichlorodiphenyl-trichloroethane [DDT], dioxin, and some pesticides) are estrogen-like and anti-androgenic chemicals in the environment. They mimic natural hormones, inhibit the action of hormones, or alter the normal regulatory function of the endocrine system and have potential hazardous effects on male reproductive axis causing infertility. Although testicular and prostate cancers, abnormal sexual development, undescended testis, chronic inflammation, Sertoli-cell-only pattern, hypospadias, altered pituitary and thyroid gland functions are also observed, the available data are insufficient to deduce worldwide conclusions. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18087652

Well, the pill is a medication that contains hormones, I guess. 

Quote

Hormone exposure and fetal sex development

While your baby’s chromosomes determine his or her sex, medications containing hormones can affect fetal sex development — in particular, spironolactone, a high blood pressure medication that reduces testosterone. So be sure to talk to your doctor about any medications you’re taking, ideally before you conceive but definitely as soon as you do know you’re pregnant.

https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/fetal-development/fetal-sex-organs-reproductive-system/

Another site talks about progestin-pills: 

Quote

However, if you do conceive while taking a progestin-only birth control (minipill), there's a slightly higher chance that the pregnancy will be ectopic.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/expert-answers/birth-control-pills/faq-20058376

I would thus conclude that even though the birth control pill may not lead to drastic malformations in a baby, it is still better not to get pregnant on the pill and to stop taking it immediately once you think you may be pregnant.  If anyone has specific informations on how the birth control pill affects fetal sex development, I'd really like to know that too  

[Mama Mia]

I mean realistically- if you are going to be hyper- cautious of caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, sushi and deli-meat because of possible risks to a pregnancy - concern about a product specifically designed to change your body to prevent said pregnancy - certainly seems logical. 

[TatiFish9]

This is a good question.

I dunno. I have stated before I am so skeptical that these children are that daft about sexuality and all remain 100% pure before their wedding nights (holding hands and front hugging is still pure). I can't prove it, but probability says no.

And to be clear, I am not saying it is impossible for people to maintain their virginity or purity culture (in general), well into life . I am saying that it is highly improbable that 10 out of 10 have done it in this family or anywhere else (percentage wise). 

Anyway, do I think the Duggar kids feelings are suppressed in regards to this topic? Yes. But I don't think they're dumb to the ways (outside of average kids their age) and they most likely talk about this kinda stuff (especially their struggles and especially the males) in small private groups.

You know, sometimes the Duggar guys say some shady stuff during their interviews especially JD and twins.lol I remember John David snarking *it takes girls longer to do ....everything*. Within context, there was definitely some sexual innuendo going on in that statement. I remember thinking "whoa?!"

I believe the females who have married outside of the sect, like Jill and Jinger, probably got men who were a little more experienced with "wordly" sex education. This most likely has served to their benefit, but not necessarily.

 

 

[Gillyweed]

I get how they're trying to stay "pure", but I don't understand how all the Duggars can go from first kiss to sex in only a few hours. I personally was super anxious about both. For sex especially, it was nice to be able to build up to it to alleviate the nerves. If I had both firsts on the same day I feel like it wouldn't have been as fun as it could've been. 

[bal maiden]

On 10/04/2018 at 9:56 PM, vspielman said:

I remember on the Anna/Smuggar wedding episode - way back when.  Anna was being interviewed at the church - she was ironing or some such, and she told the camera something to the effect that "my mom sat down and had a talk with me a few weeks ago about things. I don't think that is information that you need to have until you need to have it."  That always stuck with me, because, on one hand, I was glad that at least there was some kind of information passed along to  her, but I also found that attitude rather alarming because most intelligent people would agree that kind of information is  important starting at young ages.

I still don’t get how she only had ‘the talk’ a few weeks before her wedding, and yet was also at the same time (apparently) fully informed about Josh molesting his sisters. I feel like only one of those possible scenarios is true, and I have my suspicions as to which. 

[TatiFish9]

On 4/6/2018 at 10:06 PM, SapphireSlytherin said:

So, forgive me if this is way out of bounds but... are we seriously supposed to believe that NONE of these children kidults have masturbated/orgasmed prior to marriage?

Since this is a topic on sex ed, I think it is okay to talk about it.

Isn't it a scientific belief that men must release their sperm after a certain cycle of time? Therefore if they're not actively attempting to do so, eventually emission will naturally occur.

Even the girls must experience this, how they obsess over these guys once they're getting to know them. Almost impossible they all haven't experienced some sort of arousal and done SOMETHING to alleviate, prior to marriage. Is it possible yes? Is it highly likely all? No. Especially the ones who are seeing someone.

This is why once things become official they rush to the altar. The human spirit is willful. And sexual attraction/development is one of our most primal functions.

I appreciated Austin being honest recently in saying that him and Joy began to find it difficult that they were connecting emotionally etc but couldn't do so physically. I also was happy Joy admitted she had trouble embracing her *****parent's****** faith.

I am very passionate about this topic and the misperceptions people have about Christians and sexuality. That's why I think these fundy families in the public spotlight are absolutely wrong to not tell the truth about their experiences and why they're so fearful in efforts to project an image that most of the first generationers didn't follow themselves while then were dating. Gross. Smh.

[kachuu]

On 4/15/2018 at 4:57 PM, TatiFish9 said:

Since this is a topic on sex ed, I think it is okay to talk about it.

Isn't it a scientific belief that men must release their sperm after a certain cycle of time? Therefore if they're not actively attempting to do so, eventually emission will naturally occur.

On the same note, i remember talking to a guy i was dating who made a comment that sometimes he would have an erection over no fault of his own. I was shocked to hear this- being a girl I always thought that men had to be visually or mentally aroused, but no. He said the most awkward place it happened was church. Which, to me is the most unsexual place  you could possibly be horny at. 

He stated that when he was a kid, he really had no control over it. Also, super interesting. Especially cause I'm pregnant with a boy and dealing with this kind of issue is in my future 

The downplay of it all just seems like so much "you" are being sinful when in realty your body is doing what it does naturally. I can only imagine the guilt, anxiety, and pressure that is created in your head. After years of this THEN getting married and being told alright- go and multiple just seems like such a mind fuck, IMO.

[Knight of Ni]

My boyfriend in college said that when a woman’s body is exposed to sperm it will see it as invasive and gradually build up an immunity to it. That’s why some couples may have trouble getting pregnant after the woman stops taking birth control because her body has been exposed to sperm and now fights it off. 

[mollysmom]

On 4/1/2018 at 1:17 PM, Nargus said:

Well based on JB and Michelle blaming their miscarriage on the birth control pill, they're probably brainwashed into thinking that taking the pill is no different than having an abortion every month.

I do agree that that's what they believe. That's what I was taught growing up. I'll never forget, my first job was in a pharmacy and I felt SO guilty every time I handed someone their birth control pills cuz I "just knew" they were murdering their baby.....that's the fundie philosophy. 

Man, I honestly don't think about how fucked up they are until I think about stuff like that. 

[mollysmom]

On 4/6/2018 at 1:00 PM, Meggo said:

Are you me? Or maybe a relative? 

I found out where babies came from because in grade 3, my friend had a book and her MOM told me because mine never did. (I thought you got pregnant from kissing). I never ever heard anything about sex or periods or anything from her. When I started my period - I seriously thought I was dying - she sighed and said I could skip camp that day. In high school - I was accused of having sex because I had a boyfriend and wasn't wearing beige underwear. (sigh... may I never do this to my kid..). I was told in high school that kisses should be saved for prom - and sex should be saved for marriage - and kids were a punishment for sex. 
My mother also gave me some SERIOUS grief when I - at the age of 24 - had my boyfriend spend the night. At my own apartment. That I paid for - when I hadn't lived at home for six years. 
Ugh. 
 

So I've never been all that comfortable - but I'm trying to break the cycle with my son. I called his bits by their proper name from day one (so that I could get used to saying it before he could really understand). We say it's private - and if he wants to touch it- he should probably go to his room to do that. (in a very nonchalant way- not a punishing way. As opposed to my parents who would have sent me off to a nunnery if they'd known what I was up to)  We say pee & poop - and he gives my mom a baffled look when she asks if he needs to go BM. 

 

And...are YOU me?!?! This sounds like my upbringing to the T!!