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HideousGreenShirt

Sex Ed

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HideousGreenShirt


I have questions regarding sex ed.

We know the older girls know how babies are made (Jill and Jana's midwife/doula "education", the steady stream of new blessings and the bizarro tracking of Michelle's cycle).

There was the infamous, horrifying lego talk between Smuggar and JB. And those who watch BUB will remember the girls teased Michael before her wedding saying she looked up sex in the dictionary.

I want to believe that JinJer may have been preventing based on Jeremy's "worldliness", the comments they have made on the show and Jinger's horrified reactions whilst present at (Jessa/Jill's - which was it?) home births.

We know they hate abortion. But what, if any, sex ed are they given? Do they get told about the ways the heathens prevent pregnancy or do they just assume that a) god isn't blessing our wombs because we're not good Christians or b ) we all run out and get abortions constantly? Are there instructional ILBP pamphlets they are handed before marriage and told to figure it out?

Ftr, my private, all-girls sex ed was very thorough; we watched a video of a live birth from the business end when I was around 9. To this day I still don't want kids. 

(Mods please move if this belongs elsewhere!)

Edited by HideousGreenShirt
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Nargus

Well based on JB and Michelle blaming their miscarriage on the birth control pill, they're probably brainwashed into thinking that taking the pill is no different than having an abortion every month.

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Ivycoveredtower

I would say nothing until their wedding day or close to it. remember Joe saying he didn't want to know anything until they were married and he could act on it.   okay that's paraphrasing but the jist of what he said. 

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hethamahay

I have a feeling the Duggars subscribe to a "on a need to know basis and you don't need to know" mentality until the very last moment. I seem to remember a story on Josh and Anna's old website about a girl who asks her father about sex and her father responds by handing her a heavy suitcase. When she can't lift it, her father responds by saying that he would carry this heavy burden until she was old enough to handle the truth.  So I'm sure that the absolute basics are covered when the kids hit puberty, and that they may have desires but they have to save them for marriage. But birth control is out of the question, the pill is murder, and if you have sex outside of marriage, you will end up unlovable and riddled with STIs.  (Come to think of it, that's not far off from all the abstinence only sex ed speakers who came to my high school).  Not exactly the healthiest way to deal with teenage hormones. 

When the time actually comes to get married, they are probably given that same book JB gave Josh and that's it. Go forth and multiply as Jimbob would say.

This topic also reminds me of my cousin. She and her fiance have been in a qusai-courtship type relationship for a few years now. The can hug, kiss and otherwise be affectionate with each other but have never been alone together. When they got engaged, her mother posted an article on Facebook about how NFP is the only true pro-life birth control option and tagged the bride to be. The wedding is in a few months and I'm expecting something between a revival and a day at the Renaissance fair.       

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justoneoftwo

I expect they actually know a lot about the how babies are made idea.  Knowing about the pill and how evil it is (it caused a miscarriage and so on) is a big part of their lives.  They also "watched the calendar" so they must have known more about the inner workings than I did as a kid.  I would guess they don't know much about IUDs or other options, but I think they know more than we think they do, and maybe even more than us heathens at the same age.

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Ivycoveredtower
5 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I expect they actually know a lot about the how babies are made idea.  Knowing about the pill and how evil it is (it caused a miscarriage and so on) is a big part of their lives.  They also "watched the calendar" so they must have known more about the inner workings than I did as a kid.  I would guess they don't know much about IUDs or other options, but I think they know more than we think they do, and maybe even more than us heathens at the same age.

the girls know things probably but it's all white washed I bet.  the boys I doubt know that much.  

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Alisamer

Well, Josh certainly had some of it figured out early. If he'd been actually TAUGHT anything, maybe things would have been better for his sisters (and for him).

As much of a horndog as JB seems to be, I wouldn't be surprised if many/most of the kids had the basics figured out - though not necessarily correctly - at some point well before marriage. I mean, they knew "hey hey hey" meant dad's in the mood. And being as anti-gay as they are, I'd bet they'd had questions about that at some point too; especially since their anti-gay stance seems to be based as much on "two guys, eww" as on a few cherry-picked Bible verses.

I'm thinking there wasn't any decent sex ed, despite the fact that sex is a huge focus of their brand of christianity. But I'd bet it was talked about a lot, just in innuendo and euphemisms and what not to do. Since so much of their disapproval is based on sex and sex related things (abortion, homosexuality, transgender rights, modesty, courting instead of dating, side-hugs, etc.), I don't think they could get away with their kids literally knowing NOTHING about it!

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Plexus31Wife
On 4/1/2018 at 7:17 PM, Nargus said:

Well based on JB and Michelle blaming their miscarriage on the birth control pill, they're probably brainwashed into thinking that taking the pill is no different than having an abortion every month.

Yes, I'm inclined to think you're right about this. Even in my fundie-lite evangelical college group I "learned" that the pill is a "likely abortifacient" and shouldn't be used for that reason.

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NakedKnees

I think they know quite a bit about fertility from a young age, and probably figure out at some point (I'm sure a solid percentage of people they know with their "standards" practice NFP) that you just reverse everything and bam, that's some level of understanding about preventing pregnancy.

I do wonder if they learn anything about STIs.

I'm pretty confident that they don't learn ANYTHING useful about the emotional side of sex, including desire, appropriateness/consent (see: Josh), but are encouraged to think that they do know a lot. "Save it for marriage!" "Heart pieces!"

Honestly, I suspect a JB and Michelle are on par with a lot of other adults that, for lack of a better word, are bad at educating kids on sex, regardless of their religious beliefs. I also think that if the Duggars were allowed to socialize more, they'd probably learn a thing or two from other kids (not that it would be an idea or even good thing; it's just how kids are).

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fundiesfordays

Long time lurker, first time poster here!

I find this topic regarding the fundies particularly interesting. I was raised in a fairly conservative Christian home. My mom only talked to me about basic biology and pretty much left it at that. My parents didn't shelter me from knowledge, but they did try to shelter me from the "secular culture." They didn't jump at the opportunity to discuss sex with me either. I figured most things out from my peers and urban dictionary... :D

Like many of you have said, considering their society is so focused on reproduction, I would assume that the fundie children are probably educated pretty well on the biological mechanics of sex. We have heard it mentioned how the girls kept track of Michelle's ovulation. They knew more than I did at their age.

Based on my religious upbringing, I would assume they are also taught that sex is precious (or some other fundie word), but that God only intends that pleasure for married couples. They are probably also taught that any relations outside of marriage aren't enjoyable because it is outside of God's will. I bet they have at least a moderate understanding about sex and even the emotions and hormones surrounding it all, but are too scared to act upon it. It may even be easier to pretend they don't know anything to be viewed as pure, even if they have knowledge. Purity culture is powerful. We were taught that a sexual relationship isn't good or enjoyable unless bound in matrimony. Not only that, but if we did have sex, we would get caught and there is no telling what consequences there would be: unwanted pregnancy, disease, everyone will know you have done wrong, sin before God, etc. I chose to wait until marriage, but I still experienced a lot of shame and other confusing emotions after doing the deed. I still felt impure and like I was doing something wrong. It took me a couple of years to get past, even though we had done things the "right" way.

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QuiverDance
On 03/04/2018 at 6:14 PM, fundiesfordays said:

Long time lurker, first time poster here!

I find this topic regarding the fundies particularly interesting. I was raised in a fairly conservative Christian home. My mom only talked to me about basic biology and pretty much left it at that. My parents didn't shelter me from knowledge, but they did try to shelter me from the "secular culture." They didn't jump at the opportunity to discuss sex with me either. I figured most things out from my peers and urban dictionary... :D

Like many of you have said, considering their society is so focused on reproduction, I would assume that the fundie children are probably educated pretty well on the biological mechanics of sex. We have heard it mentioned how the girls kept track of Michelle's ovulation. They knew more than I did at their age.

Based on my religious upbringing, I would assume they are also taught that sex is precious (or some other fundie word), but that God only intends that pleasure for married couples. They are probably also taught that any relations outside of marriage aren't enjoyable because it is outside of God's will. I bet they have at least a moderate understanding about sex and even the emotions and hormones surrounding it all, but are too scared to act upon it. It may even be easier to pretend they don't know anything to be viewed as pure, even if they have knowledge. Purity culture is powerful. We were taught that a sexual relationship isn't good or enjoyable unless bound in matrimony. Not only that, but if we did have sex, we would get caught and there is no telling what consequences there would be: unwanted pregnancy, disease, everyone will know you have done wrong, sin before God, etc. I chose to wait until marriage, but I still experienced a lot of shame and other confusing emotions after doing the deed. I still felt impure and like I was doing something wrong. It took me a couple of years to get past, even though we had done things the "right" way.

I was raised in a very Roman Catholic environment, and this was basically my experience.  I knew a lot about sex, but I was also taught to be ashamed of it and to fear the consequences of engaging in it.  I also spent the better part of my early thirties with this nagging feeling that my infertility was a punishment from God for my use of birth control in my single 20's, and an acquaintance as much as insinuated the same to me.  He and his wife are committed to NFP, and AFAIK did not engage in premarital sex, and they were pretty successful with NFP... until they weren't.  He's not taking the unexpected pregnancy well, and the mindset astounds me. What did you think would happen, dude?  From my perspective, you're lucky it worked as long as it did.  Women's cycles change with age. What once was reliable suddenly is not.  

As for married sex, I had conflicting emotions there as well.  My first husband was divorced, so I could not marry in the Church.  It took me a full decade to finally let go of Catholicism and the mind set that I was a sinner.  I'm remarried now to another Catholic, and we have chosen to remain secularly married and not seek annulments of our first marriages.

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allthegoodnamesrgone
39 minutes ago, fundiesfordays said:

Long time lurker, first time poster here!

I find this topic regarding the fundies particularly interesting. I was raised in a fairly conservative Christian home. My mom only talked to me about basic biology and pretty much left it at that. My parents didn't shelter me from knowledge, but they did try to shelter me from the "secular culture." They didn't jump at the opportunity to discuss sex with me either. I figured most things out from my peers and urban dictionary... :D

Like many of you have said, considering their society is so focused on reproduction, I would assume that the fundie children are probably educated pretty well on the biological mechanics of sex. We have heard it mentioned how the girls kept track of Michelle's ovulation. They knew more than I did at their age.

Based on my religious upbringing, I would assume they are also taught that sex is precious (or some other fundie word), but that God only intends that pleasure for married couples. They are probably also taught that any relations outside of marriage aren't enjoyable because it is outside of God's will. I bet they have at least a moderate understanding about sex and even the emotions and hormones surrounding it all, but are too scared to act upon it. It may even be easier to pretend they don't know anything to be viewed as pure, even if they have knowledge. Purity culture is powerful. We were taught that a sexual relationship isn't good or enjoyable unless bound in matrimony. Not only that, but if we did have sex, we would get caught and there is no telling what consequences there would be: unwanted pregnancy, disease, everyone will know you have done wrong, sin before God, etc. I chose to wait until marriage, but I still experienced a lot of shame and other confusing emotions after doing the deed. I still felt impure and like I was doing something wrong. It took me a couple of years to get past, even though we had done things the "right" way.

Mine was along those lines as well, but more of we don't talk about such things and you don't do such things so just pretend it doesn't happen, don't talk about it, to think about it don't even hint about it. The most we got was you don't touch anyone of the opposite sex until you are married and ONLY do that to make babies other wise SIN.  Very hard core old school catholic.  These lack of talking and mentioning didn't dissuade any of my siblings or cousins (save for 1) from being normal horny teens and almost normal sexually active adults.  We all (except the 1) used birth control while most of them are "pro-life" they aren't pro birth control, as long as you pay for it yourself.   

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Ivycoveredtower

you want hilarious Duggar sex end watch Josh and Anna's wedding when JIm Bob gives Josh the book and tape and Josh reads the description out loud a few words get bleeped out and Jim Bob shushes him. :laughing-rollingyellow: 

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AreYouThereGothard?

As was previously mentioned, I’d bet that the girls know more than the guys since they can do stuff like track ovulation. To me, that require some knowledge of ovaries, Fallopian tubes, etc. If the guys know about the function of anything other than the penis (testicles, vas deferens, etc), I would be surprised. There was an episode of MTV’s “True Life” that focused on newlyweds. One was a religious couple in which the groom had never kissed anyone. The poor bride-to-be was trying to read a book about the male reproductive system and the groom said something about “you don’t need to know how it works in order to do it”. That’s what I imagine a fundie male thinks approaching his wedding night/trysts with Ashley Madison. 

Surprisingly, my public school had really comprehensive sex ed and, IIRC, didn’t shame anybody. Birth control and contraception were openly talked about, but there was an emphasis on abstinence (which I don’t think is a bad idea for younger people, just my opinion). 

I think the warning story that hit home for us was my 7th grade science teacher talking about how he gained custody of his nephew because his parents were not fit to be parents (I think they had substance abuse issues). I should emphasize that he told us about the situation without a “holier than thou” or judgemental attitude, but was straightforward and honest with us about a situation in which people who weren’t fit to care for a child had one and the difficulties it created. That being said, we knew every part and function of the male and female reproductive systems and he didn’t shy away from any of it. If anything, it validated the story about his nephew as a “this is serious” story as opposed to a scare tactic and I commend my science teacher for how he taught us. Clearly this isn’t the case in all schools, but yay internet resources! 

Oh, somebody mentioned STIs. I think when Ashley Madison came about, posters on here were hoping that Anna would get some level of testing since Josh had been with random partners. I would very much doubt they’d endure the supposed shame of going to a health department, clinic, or certainly not Planned Parenthood for testing. I’m not sure if they have health insurance, but I heard some rumor (verify or debunk) that it’s best not to get STI testing done at a doctor’s because it could be considered a sign of reckless behavior and insurance could drop you or something. Regardless, they probably think Gonorrhea and Chlamydia are exotic girl names (suggestions for the name list? Chlamydia Praisethelord Duggar?) 

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fundiesfordays
2 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

I also spent the better part of my early thirties with this nagging feeling that my infertility was a punishment from God for my use of birth control in my single 20's, and an acquaintance as much as insinuated the same to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am so sorry you had to experience that. Infertility is painful enough without having someone tell you that it's your fault. I am glad the people in my life were supportive of my BC use. When we found out we were infertile, if someone would've told me we somehow caused it I would have slapped them.

Edited by fundiesfordays
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Nargus
1 hour ago, AreYouThereGothard? said:

Oh, somebody mentioned STIs. I think when Ashley Madison came about, posters on here were hoping that Anna would get some level of testing since Josh had been with random partners. I would very much doubt they’d endure the supposed shame of going to a health department, clinic, or certainly not Planned Parenthood for testing. I’m not sure if they have health insurance, but I heard some rumor (verify or debunk) that it’s best not to get STI testing done at a doctor’s because it could be considered a sign of reckless behavior and insurance could drop you or something. Regardless, they probably think Gonorrhea and Chlamydia are exotic girl names (suggestions for the name list? Chlamydia Praisethelord Duggar?) 

Wouldn't getting STI testing be a sign of the opposite of reckless behaviour? You would need an STI screening if you found out a partner was cheating or you were sexually assaulted.  Seems like a responsible thing to do to me.

I'm in Canada so I just have provincial health coverage, but every yearly physical for me has included an STI screening, even before I was sexually active. 

 

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front hugs > duggs

I really don't remember a whole lot from my high school sex-ed class except that we had it and saw our gym/health teacher putting a condom on a banana. I do remember we had to do a paper or assignment of some sort on a specific STI that was assigned to us. The teacher handed out slips of paper with the names of STIs on them randomly to the students in our class, causing one girl to leave the class screaming, "MS ______ GAVE ME CHLAMYDIA!!!"

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justoneoftwo

My extremely extremely liberal high school had amazingly bad sex ed (just so we all know its not about liberal or conservative).  I'm not sure anyone was aware of what our teacher was telling us, because it can't have been on the policy.  We were told that adoption was great, and being pregnant could improve our grades.  We were told getting pregnant was almost impossible, as there was only 1 day a month that it could happen and that NFP was 100% safe (these may be somewhat close to true, but the way it was presented was not). I actually think our teacher wanted us to go have as much sex as possible, and ideally have kids.  

It was weird.

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Augustus

I really think the girls actually don't know anything about fertility and ovulation. I'm sure they would use euphemisms instead of actually talking about ovaries and Fallopian tubes. 

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Ivycoveredtower

talking Sex ed I wonder if Jill still has bulk supplies of pregnancy tests in her house. do all marrieds do so or maybe Jill is the grand central station of pregnancy tests. :laughing-rollingyellow:

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lumpentheologie
4 hours ago, AreYouThereGothard? said:

I’m not sure if they have health insurance, but I heard some rumor (verify or debunk) that it’s best not to get STI testing done at a doctor’s because it could be considered a sign of reckless behavior and insurance could drop you or something.

I've never heard anything like that, and it sounds ridiculous to me.  Usually screening is recommended at your annual women's health exam if you're sexually active outside of a longterm monogamous relationship. 

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Nargus
2 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I've never heard anything like that, and it sounds ridiculous to me.  Usually screening is recommended at your annual women's health exam if you're sexually active outside of a longterm monogamous relationship. 

I've been in a longterm monogamous relationship for 7 years, and it still got done at every women's health exam.

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AreYouThereGothard?

 @lumpentheologie @Nargus Then I'm glad it was just a rumor and that testing happens in a doc's office without fear of coverage. Though I will say I don't recall being offered testing other than my Pap smear, but the boys don't exactly come calling in droves (monogamous or otherwise), so my impressive dry spells may have thwarted mention of testing. Notes to self for the next time I get my ovaries squashed. 

@Nargus I believe the logic (or lack thereof) for the reckless behavior argument was that you wouldn't have to worry about STI testing if you keep your hands, feet, and naughty bits to yourself.  If you inquire about testing, you must be a harlot. 

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Jellybean

I can see the logic of testing everyone routinely as @Nargusdescribed in her experience of the Canadian system. It takes out some of the judgement factor and the potential for people to miss out on testing/treatment because they don’t want to say that they’ve behaved a certain way.

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ScorpiousMalfoy

I always wondered what kind of knowledge you can find in the (fundie) christian sex-ed books... like the one Josh(ugh) and Anna were listening to on their way from their wedding to the hotel (this scene was so :brainbleach:, you could see that at that time TLC was portraying them as total freaks, no "look how normal we are" like nowadays...)

Edited by ScorpiousMalfoy
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