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quiversR4hunting

Family SUV plunges off cliff in CA - family from WA

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Howl
1 hour ago, Imaginary_Wonderland said:

Daily Mail is reporting that a body has been found. Not identified yet, but believe it to be one of the missing girls.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5590587/Unidentified-body-recovered-site-suspected-car-crash.html

Thanks for posting. I just came across this on the local news as well.  That dashes any hope that the three missing kids were somewhere safe.  So sad. 

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WiseGirl
On 4/1/2018 at 1:39 PM, keepercjr said:

 all of which is non taxable income.

Sorry not taking it out on you, but as a foster parent it burns my britches to see people think of this money as income.  The money is supposed to be used for the children,  even though I knoe in many cases it is not.

Current child came into my life with zero clothes, turns out the school cafeteria staff was going to pitch in and buy child clothes. I told them not to worry.

When it is used correctly money is to benefit child, not line foster parents pockets. It makes me so mad and sad. 

 

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apple1
1 hour ago, Howl said:

Thanks for posting. I just came across this on the local news as well.  That dashes any hope that the three missing kids were somewhere safe.  So sad. 

I had the same thought. Even though I knew it was probably unlikely, I was hoping the other 3 kids had somehow been dropped off somewhere. This story is just awful (I know, inadequate word there).

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TooTired2bOriginal
3 hours ago, WiseGirl said:

Sorry not taking it out on you, but as a foster parent it burns my britches to see people think of this money as income.  The money is supposed to be used for the children,  even though I knoe in many cases it is not.

Current child came into my life with zero clothes, turns out the school cafeteria staff was going to pitch in and buy child clothes. I told them not to worry.

When it is used correctly money is to benefit child, not line foster parents pockets. It makes me so mad and sad. 

 

OT but I am so interested in this. So, in the USA, all foster parents are volunteers with other jobs too? How is it possible to fit work around fostering - surely this would limit the age of fostered children to school-age, unless a foster parent can work part-time? In my mind, I think of fostering as a very strenuous, full-time job where children can be delivered in the middle of the night, can be a range of ages and needs, and I couldn't imagine a 2nd job flexible enough to be able to work around those conditions. In the UK foster family that I know, the dad is self-employed so that he can be flexible and the mom is a full time foster carer.

@WiseGirl forgot to tag you.

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WiseGirl
6 hours ago, TooTired2bOriginal said:

OT but I am so interested in this. So, in the USA, all foster parents are volunteers with other jobs too? How is it possible to fit work around fostering - surely this would limit the age of fostered children to school-age, unless a foster parent can work part-time? In my mind, I think of fostering as a very strenuous, full-time job where children can be delivered in the middle of the night, can be a range of ages and needs, and I couldn't imagine a 2nd job flexible enough to be able to work around those conditions. In the UK foster family that I know, the dad is self-employed so that he can be flexible and the mom is a full time foster carer.

@WiseGirl forgot to tag you.

You might want to PM me!  

There are actually some foster parents that just do the emergency placements - when they need someone to do it in the middle of the night. (My friend is getting certified just to do this).  There are others that do it for respite (when foster family needs a break, goes on vacation -in my experience the child stays behind so visits with parent can continue, especially if reconciliation is imminent.  Sadly some children go to group homes until a home comes open, some need intensive therapy group homes, etc.  With younger children, not sure how I would manage.  I work with school age/older children and I have a full-time job.  It works because here, CPS helps me because they know my home is stable, etc...

I think I answered you question?  As I said, pm me if you would like more information.  I don't want to hijack the thread!

  

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Howl

It came to me last night that there must have been some seriously dark secret shit going on with these moms relative to the kids, and it was more than food deprivation and physical punishment -- something that would have put both moms in prison for a long time.  That's the kind of thing that makes two people decide to head over a cliff and commit mass murder/suicide. 

Hopefully, evidence of whatever it was will come from the search of the home.  

 

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Howl

Fascinating article on family annihilators, discussing characteristics and motivations. 

Deadly Hart crash stands out for experts who study family annihilators

There is a strong link to domestic violence.  

Quote

The story does, however, bear at least one hallmark of some other mass family killings: The Harts had a documented history of child abuse, and experts say it's likely there was an undercurrent of spousal violence as well. 

and this reminded me so much of Nicole Naugler: 

Quote

"It's important for abusers to manage their identity," Scott said. "It was very important that they look good outside their family."

Jennifer Hart, the family's primary caretaker and the main social media architect, frequently shared lengthy posts on Facebook or videos on YouTube...Adams agrees public perception is critically important to abusers.

"They tend to live and die for their image. Their solution is to also spare their families" the humiliation (of living with a damaged image). "They actually feel that they are saving them."

I don't think Nicole Naugler would ever kill her children, but she is definitely somewhere on this spectrum. 

Edited by Howl

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hoipolloi
3 hours ago, Howl said:

Fascinating article on family annihilators, discussing characteristics and motivations. 

From that informative article:

Quote

 

The Mendocino County Sheriff's Office said this week it is treating the incident as a crime, and its top official hinted authorities are close to considering it a homicide investigation. Authorities have said Jennifer Hart was the driver....

David Adams, co-executive director of a Massachusetts-based domestic violence counseling and education center, said initial findings suggest it's unlikely the crash was an accident or a shared action between Jennifer and Sarah Hart.

"It's far more likely that this was a unilateral decision by the abusive partner to take out the whole family, basically," he said, noting that he was speaking based on his general knowledge and he didn't know the family.

 

IIRC, Jennifer Hart was the parent who had actually beaten the child whose injuries were reported to MN authorities but Sarah ended up taking responsibility & getting charged.

 

 

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quiversR4hunting

Here is a new article with friends and co-workers from MN

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/hart-family-mystery-deepens-as-friends-remember-previous-foster-child-in-minnesota/

Basically the people in MN didn't see anything off. They did have a foster child prior to adopting the first sibling set. One co-worker said they had difficulty with her but the things she mentioned (crossed arms at the makeup counter with the foster child) doesn't really mean anything because some people stand that way or have RBF. The women did say that foster child would be caught eating out of the garbage. Again, no context so not sure if the child had food insecurity so was going to eat anything and everything or something else.

I am not surprised that some friends did not see any warning signs.

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wild little fox

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2018/04/sarah_hart_sent_alarming_3_am.html

 

Just a hunch on my part, but this makes me wonder if Sara, and also the kids, were poisoned. I saw a picture of Jennifer in a Safeway checkout but no other sightings or CCTV footage has come forward (to my knowledge) that shows Sara or the kids after they left the residence in WA. 

Edited by wild little fox
clarify

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wild little fox

Sarah Hart sent a middle-of-the-night text message to a friend only hours after Washington child protective services first visited the family's home, saying she was so sick she might have to go to the hospital, according to 911 records obtained by The Oregonian/OregonLive.

The friend, Cheryl Hart, said she received the alarming message from the mother of Devonte Hart and his five siblings at 3 a.m. March 24 but was unsuccessful in reaching Sarah afterward. By 8 a.m., the family, authorities would later learn, was in Newport, Oregon (from the link in my post just prior to this one)

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Howl

The autopsy results will certainly reveal if there was poisoning. 

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Bethella
13 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

http://people.com/human-interest/family-missing-same-area-where-svu-plunged-off-cliff/

Anyone see this article? Another family (of four) seemed to have gone off a cliff near where the Hart family did. This seems like a very different situation to me though. Prayers to all involved.

It's still too dangerous to reach the vehicle but they've recovered enough items to confirm that the vehicle in the river belongs to the missing family. It's horrid to say it, but at least this one looks like an accident. https://www.yahoo.com/news/officials-items-found-belonged-missing-california-family-204548967.html

Edited by Bethella
too vs to

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hoipolloi
2 hours ago, Bethella said:

It's still too dangerous to reach the vehicle but they've recovered enough items to confirm that the vehicle in the river belongs to the missing family. It's horrid to say it, but at least this one looks like an accident. https://www.yahoo.com/news/officials-items-found-belonged-missing-california-family-204548967.html

Based on available information, what happened to this family truly seems to be a terrible accident. Cannot imagine what it would be like to have your vehicle plunge over the side of the highway into the river in the midst of torrential rainstorms.

One of the scariest rides Mr Hoi & I ever had was several decades ago, down the CA coast on Route 1 between Carmel & San Luis Obispo. Right after we left Carmel, a dense fog moved in and visibility was virtually nil. We didn't know the road, there were no turnoffs that we knew to take since we needed to get to the LA area, and the only glimpses we occasionally had through the fog were sudden vistas over major sea cliffs that plunged vertically to the Pacific Ocean, immediately to our right. It's probably a gorgeous drive in good weather but man,  we only remember it with dread & thankfulness that we made it through alive.

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nastyhobbitses

I had a hunch that this was a case of family annihilation. I'm guessing that Jennifer realized that she was about to be found out/she was about to be found out and her partner wasn't going to take her side, and couldn't abide losing custody control.

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Howl

Noticed that the Harts have made it to CNN: 

Quote

The Harts' experience highlights what experts told CNN are classic signs of abusive parents isolating their children from other adults, including those who are mandated by law to report suspected abuseto authorities, such as teachers, doctors and police.

The combination of frequent moves, home-schooling and seclusion from neighbors, along with using food as a means of control -- all in play in the Hart case -- can signal the possibility of abuse, experts said.

Full text with discussion of how "homeschooling" is used to isolate children and cover up abuse.   How the Hart parents isolated their children to hide signs of abuse

Edited by Howl

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Briefly

I read a report on a new site just now, they are saying that the driver had an alcohol level above the minimum and that she was legally drunk. The other mom and I think 2 children had an elevated level of benadryl in their systems.

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Coy Koi

I skimmed this thread but I don't think this has been mentioned yet. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/story-of-harts-foster-child-is-one-of-heartbreak-though-not-the-way-some-might-expect/

It's about a former foster child they had before adopting the first set of siblings, and how they abandoned her without even telling her she was going to be moving out of their house, and then just never spoke to her again.

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Happy
PumaLover
Based on available information, what happened to this family truly seems to be a terrible accident. Cannot imagine what it would be like to have your vehicle plunge over the side of the highway into the river in the midst of torrential rainstorms.
One of the scariest rides Mr Hoi & I ever had was several decades ago, down the CA coast on Route 1 between Carmel & San Luis Obispo. Right after we left Carmel, a dense fog moved in and visibility was virtually nil. We didn't know the road, there were no turnoffs that we knew to take since we needed to get to the LA area, and the only glimpses we occasionally had through the fog were sudden vistas over major sea cliffs that plunged vertically to the Pacific Ocean, immediately to our right. It's probably a gorgeous drive in good weather but man,  we only remember it with dread & thankfulness that we made it through alive.

I live in California and have made this drive many, many times. It's a beautiful drive on the best of days, but not for anyone afraid of heights. Most of the turnouts are sheer drop offs straight down to the ocean. At several turnouts I've stopped at, there are boulders lining the edges, but who knows how stable or strong those are.

I've been so disturbed by this story, especially after seeing a brief headline earlier that one mom had been drinking and/or had a medication in her system. Something seems fishy here.

I am also heartbroken about the family who crashed into the Eel river. These heavy rains have been insane and at least in our area, the rivers are flowing much higher and faster than they usually do.

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Ozlsn
6 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

I skimmed this thread but I don't think this has been mentioned yet. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/story-of-harts-foster-child-is-one-of-heartbreak-though-not-the-way-some-might-expect/

It's about a former foster child they had before adopting the first set of siblings, and how they abandoned her without even telling her she was going to be moving out of their house, and then just never spoke to her again.

Seriously how the hell were these women able to adopt after that? And again even after concerns were raised about the treatment of their first adopted children?  I honestly do not understand the system that allows adoption into families that are already quite large, and then seems to provide no ongoing support. Are they that desperate to get kids out of the foster care system? Here it is almost impossible to adopt locally unless you are already related to the child.

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Howl

Toxicology reports are in.  Jen Hart was drunk and everybody else seemed to have had some level of Benadryl in their system.  From NBC: 

Quote

The woman who was behind the wheel of an SUV that plunged over a cliff and ended up in the Pacific along the rocky Northern California shore last month — killing her wife and kids — was legally drunk, authorities said Friday.

Just google "Hart family toxicology".  

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Briefly

Sounds like it was multiple murder/suicide then.

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