Joy and Austin (and Gideon) 22: When Nothing Much Happens

[tabitha2]

Doubt it. It’s not like she is expected to have or will have any expectations of a career. She won’t have to try to survive outside her bubble. 

2 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I think Jinger did rebel. she married Jeremy who honestly I don't think would have been JIm Bob's first pick i have more of a feeling she told him I want him. I think Jeremy was the first to get the questionnaire. Derick and Ben seem to have done one but not until after everything Jeremy got one before he could even court Jinger. Jinger wore pants which opened the door for her sisters and unlike her sisters lives far enough away and told her family stay away for six months. 

 

Honestly. I would not get carried away with that. As has been said numerous times wearing pants or even shorts because your husbsnd lets you or doesn't mind is hardly rebelling. It’s fairly common now in her set actually.   Jeremy is still a very conservative Christian who obviously passed Jim Bobs requirements  and agreed to be reality TV. He is just packaging himself better than most. 

[just_ordinary]

The question is does „rebel“ equal leaving her faith, becoming pro-choice, befriending lots of Mexicans/Hispanics/PoC/LGBT/people from different religions and promoting birth control while starting to study and work? Getting a divorce and supporting a democrat candidate?

These seem to be the requirements sometimes but while some of this would be nice there is a huge chance it is not going to happen. For all I see they will always be very conservative Christians, voting for Republican candidates (partly because of their beliefs, partly because of the political agenda). That doesn’t make them different from thousands of other people. They will probably always be slightly racist (even though they wouldn’t define themselves as so) and reject the LGBT community. Still doesn’t make them different than millions of other people (believers and atheists). 

She already rebelled against JB and his rules. You could argue she has a new headship now, but the JB cult seems to be strong. They give no indication to go down the quiverfull road, I would even argue they admitted publicly they won’t. So I would say she definitely rebelled against her JB-quiverfull upbringing by marrying someone who (at least from what was shown) was very clear that his kind of life would be different.

At this point they are still very much what I would define as Fundies but they seem to open up more and more. Children might slow down or stop the process or make it even faster. The TV money gave Jinger a much more comfortable life than her peers and she and Jeremy seem to manage well right now. Fundie light is probably their end status. I would definitely put my money on the grandchildren. 

[GreatScott]

What would some of you consider ‘freedom’ or ‘breaking away’? Would it be publically speaking against what the Duggars grew their business on? Or would it be a combination of small things (pants, job, schools, no kids, etc) ?

I feel personally that it would take a big statement for me to see one of them as free. I like the pants and the limiting kids, but I don’t think they’re anything but the same shit in a different bag.

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, GreatScott said:

What would some of you consider ‘freedom’ or ‘breaking away’? Would it be publically speaking against what the Duggars grew their business on? Or would it be a combination of small things (pants, job, schools, no kids, etc) ?

I feel personally that it would take a big statement for me to see one of them as free. I like the pants and the limiting kids, but I don’t think they’re anything but the same shit in a different bag.

 

I think limiting kids is a big one for me.  not only because it goes against ATI but also because it will hopefully mean a better life for the few kids they have. Jessa seems like a great mom with two kids but will she be the same with 8 I doubt it.  I don't think any of the kids is going to go full Cynthia Jeub and cut their parents out. if anything  we may see a divorce in the future like Rebecca Keller but still having connect with Duggar parents. pants may seem small but it's still a big step away from the way they were raised  the less strict they are the better for any future courtship and grandkid. 

[feministxtian]

11 minutes ago, GreatScott said:

What would some of you consider ‘freedom’ or ‘breaking away’? Would it be publically speaking against what the Duggars grew their business on? Or would it be a combination of small things (pants, job, schools, no kids, etc) ?

I feel personally that it would take a big statement for me to see one of them as free. I like the pants and the limiting kids, but I don’t think they’re anything but the same shit in a different bag.

 

I'd start with little things, limiting kids, sending them to school (even a Christian school), pants, a job...there's a lot of conservative Christians who are not whackjob fundie like the Duggars. I don't think we'll see any huge changes until the grandkids...baby steps. 

[marmalade]

Joy got a diploma from Duggar Academy. We know Joe got a GED because he has a Real Estate license. Joy "graduated" with the twins. Who knows what actual education they have. I have always thought of Joy as a rather dim bulb, so I really fear her homeschooling efforts without a co-op of some kind. But if they're all like-minded people in the second generation, I can't see their kids as college material, let alone having the werewithal to break free. I see the Forsyth kids (this being their thread) being really, really trapped. 

And that's not even bringing Austin into this; I think he's a controlling hardass. Joy's life is his way or the highway. 

[AliceInFundyland]

 Freedom= A start would just be admitting they don't want "as many as the Lord will provide." FFS. They can still be full time mommies and warriors for God. Hell, they can still be bigoted assholes. But admit you want to enjoy the kids you have and take some time with them.

[JordynDarby5]

Freedom to make their own decisions for themselves. To decide for themselves what they want and real education. If they wanted to go college or a trade school  or decided against those and getting a job.  Allowed to decided for themselves on marriage and children. If the Duggar kids had been allowed a real education and options that normal kids had who knows where they would be or what they would be doing. 

[TheMustardCardigan]

9 hours ago, Feminist_Defrauder91 said:

Jumping in late to this discussion to say that since I'm a law nerd and an ebil Catholic who doesn't have the Bible memorized, the first thing I thought of when I saw the name "Gideon" wasn't the Bible, it was the Supreme Court case Gideon v. Wainwright.  The case established the right to counsel at government expense for indigent criminal defendants.  Granted Gideon was a last name in that case but still, I wonder what Joy and Austin think about that? 

Hah, I'm a prosecutor and recent law school grad and I didn't even think of Gideon v. Wainwright this this name.  I doubt Joy and Austin have even heard of that court case, pretty sure the only Supreme Court case they care about is Roe v. Wade 

[SapphireSlytherin]

10 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

I think we will see all that but it will be a granddaughter and they will be long out of the public eye and all the media interest will be long gone. 

Sometimes I wonder if this family will ever leave the public eye. Commercial media (legitimate media, whatever that may mean) or not, there will always be gossip magazines. Social media is here to stay, and people love them. People also love a trainwreck.

Jill is ahead of the curve now, with her revamped website and her rebranded family. Just read the comments on her stuff... People miss them on the show, love their family, think Derick is being persecuted, etc.

 

7 hours ago, GreatScott said:

What would some of you consider ‘freedom’ or ‘breaking away’?

At this point, only Jinger has accomplished any sort of freedom from JimBob/Michelle by literally moving away from them and barring them from her home for six months. During that six months, she started wearing pants AND SHORTS in public, wasn't seen proselytizing on street corners or Scary Sintrul Murrica, wasn't living in a Duggar-family property, wasn't hanging out at the TTH every day, wasn't being 24/7 directly influenced by her sisters... I'm not saying she wasn't in contact with them at all, because she was. Phone/text/Skype/whatever is a real thing.

As for everyone saying "Jeremy dresses Jinger" - that has always made me just a little bit irritated. We don't know this. We are basing this on his one sermon where he said (paraphrased) "god doesn't save your soul to make you wear a skirt." Jinger has always had more fashion sense than her sisters, and Jill would do well to pay a leeeeetle more attention to the way Jinger puts herself together... Jill sometimes looks like an unmade bed in the outfits she chooses.

TL;DR - Jinger has (more) freedom (than her siblings) and has broken away (literally - by MOVING), and is now establishing her own brand. Fundie light for sure.
 

[Georgiana]

I'm starting to believe JD might shock us all and be the first to leave the borg.  He's close to Zach Bates, who married outside the approved spousal ring and is very nearly at if not already in regular old conservative Christian territory.  He doesn't seem to be interested in any fundie maidens (and he's a Duggar with employment, so he's got to be considered a good catch).  He doesn't seem to be interested in continuing the Duggar "ministry" (sure he appears on the show, but it's clear that his career goals lie elsewhere...he also doesn't seem eager to appear, so I think he might have bowed out if not to keep peace).  He was incredibly hurt by the Josh scandals and may have become disillusioned.  He seems close to his twin, which may allow him additional insight into how harmful the patriarchy is.  

I do sometimes wonder if JD's "bachelor till the rapture" comments are really more to get the public and his parents off his back as he wants more of a Whit Bates than an Anna Duggar, but is waiting until the spotlight dies down a bit to ease his family into it.  And no, I'm not just saying that because I would totally snatch that man up (as long as he's willing to make minor religious and gender-role concessions, of course).  It's incredibly inconvenient that JD has grown into my type of man, and I am most seriously displeased with myself due to this development.  

Josie may surprise us.  Due to her status as "miracle Josie", she may be able to obtain additional educational resources.  She's also being raised to feel grateful to doctors for saving her.  In many cases, that would inspire a child to form an interest in medicine.  Real medicine.  And while none of the other Duggars would have ever had a chance at decent science education, Josie, due to her status, may be able to get it in a round about way if she pushes for it.  In addition, JB and Michelle (who have been slacking off for a while) will be fully into retirement age by the time Josie is really ready for the serious sciences.  I wouldn't be shocked if they are less attentive to what Josie is doing or learning.  I think she'll have the opportunity to sneak things by them the way the older kids never did.  Unlike most of her siblings, the core of her education will likely be after the cameras have stopped rolling...which may cause whoever is doing her homeschooling to loosen up.  

I know Josie is annoying, but I do hope she breaks free.  More than any other Duggar, I feel, Josie has had her privacy invaded.  She's had ALL of her health concerns on aired on national TV, and the producers just LOVE to show her doing weird kid stuff.  And yeah, she shouldn't be doing it, but she's a kid! If she's not being told better, how is she going to do better?  It's JB and M's lazy parenting that is the cause, but it's Josie who gets the embarrassment.  

[SongRed7]

6 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

As for everyone saying "Jeremy dresses Jinger" - that has always made me just a little bit irritated. We don't know this. We are basing this on his one sermon where he said (paraphrased) "god doesn't save your soul to make you wear a skirt." Jinger has always had more fashion sense than her sisters, and Jill would do well to pay a leeeeetle more attention to the way Jinger puts herself together... Jill sometimes looks like an unmade bed in the outfits she chooses.

That makes two of us.   I don't think she had to wait for Jeremy's permission to dress the way she dresses.  I think now that she's out the family she has a little more freedom to shop and do things for herself.    I also (pure speculation) I think they enjoy going out and shopping together. I think Its a mutual thing...I think they are a little more equal in that regards -- how they dress. 

 

[singsingsing]

I think it's pretty much impossible to say how much influence Jeremy actually has over Jinger's wardrobe. Her style definitely changed after she got married, but that could just be the effect of growing up, becoming more independent, and feeling freer to branch out. My style has changed since my early 20s too, and will probably change at least somewhat as I enter my 30s. No one's influencing me or dressing me, it's just a natural progression. You get bored with one look and try out something different.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

6 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I think it's pretty much impossible to say how much influence Jeremy actually has over Jinger's wardrobe. Her style definitely changed after she got married, but that could just be the effect of growing up, becoming more independent, and feeling freer to branch out. My style has changed since my early 20s too, and will probably change at least somewhat as I enter my 30s. No one's influencing me or dressing me, it's just a natural progression. You get bored with one look and try out something different.

The only thing we know for sure that Jeremy influenced was the pants, he obviously said he was OK with it, where as either Michelle or JB is not. I think she always had the potential for this kind of style, just never the opportunity,

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

The only thing we know for sure that Jeremy influenced was the pants, he obviously said he was OK with it, where as either Michelle or JB is not. I think she always had the potential for this kind of style, just never the opportunity,

Yeah, I think the only thing we can safely say for sure is that Jeremy is definitely on board with all of her fashion/style choices. Whether he told her to start wearing pants, suggested it, or just said 'sure' when she said she wanted to do it - who knows.

[feministxtian]

28 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Yeah, I think the only thing we can safely say for sure is that Jeremy is definitely on board with all of her fashion/style choices. Whether he told her to start wearing pants, suggested it, or just said 'sure' when she said she wanted to do it - who knows.

I'm thinking it was more of "well, if you want to wear pants, shorts, whatever, it's cool...go for it". Jinger seems to be the one who's throwing off the kool-aid the most. The rest are still financially dependent on J'Boob and his bitch...so they have less incentive to leave the reservation. 

[nastyhobbitses]

I'm going to hazard that Jinger always wanted to wear pants and tank tops, and getting a new headship simply allowed her to do it and have an "excuse" if her family gave her shit about it. It's entirely plausible that Jeremy nudged her along, but I don't think it was a "WEAR PANTS WOMAN NOW YOU WILL OBEY ME" situation. 

Also, slight digression, but I'm pretty damn feminist and I freely admit that, if my boyfriend says he likes something I'm wearing, I wear that a hell of a lot more often, and buy stuff similar to it. He isn't dressing me, but hey, if the dude who's banging me says that I look good in something, I must look pretty good in it. 

[L1o2u3]

Boyfriends and fashion... I changed my style about 1,5 years ago and my boyfriend never noticed that I didn't wear certain items anymore until I told him a few days ago  

If he tells me I should wear something, I only do it when I like the item as well. Sometimes I let him choose though when I can't decide what to buy (and can't buy all items I want). But then I did the pre-selection  

[libgirl2]

44 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I'm going to hazard that Jinger always wanted to wear pants and tank tops, and getting a new headship simply allowed her to do it and have an "excuse" if her family gave her shit about it. It's entirely plausible that Jeremy nudged her along, but I don't think it was a "WEAR PANTS WOMAN NOW YOU WILL OBEY ME" situation. 

Also, slight digression, but I'm pretty damn feminist and I freely admit that, if my boyfriend says he likes something I'm wearing, I wear that a hell of a lot more often, and buy stuff similar to it. He isn't dressing me, but hey, if the dude who's banging me says that I look good in something, I must look pretty good in it. 

When my husband says he likes something I wear, I make sure to wear it. One time though he told me he didn't like something I had on (that I had worn many times).... well, lets just say he learned his lesson. 

 

[Lizzybet]

17 hours ago, GreatScott said:

What would some of you consider ‘freedom’ or ‘breaking away’? Would it be publically speaking against what the Duggars grew their business on? Or would it be a combination of small things (pants, job, schools, no kids, etc) ?

 

 

To me, something as simple as environmental awareness. Like making it a point NOT to use styrofoam cups and paper plates.

Baby steps, but significant.

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, L1o2u3 said:

Boyfriends and fashion... I changed my style about 1,5 years ago and my boyfriend never noticed that I didn't wear certain items anymore until I told him a few days ago  

If he tells me I should wear something, I only do it when I like the item as well. Sometimes I let him choose though when I can't decide what to buy (and can't buy all items I want). But then I did the pre-selection  

He sounds like my brother. Didn't notice when I cut my waist long hair to my shoulders. Didn't notice when his wife highlighted her hair red. One year we asked him what his wife's favorite color was (we were thinking of getting her clothes for Christmas) well he told us she doesn't like red and purple. She loves red and purple majority of her clothes in her closet was red or purple.        

[QuiverFullofBooks]

14 hours ago, Georgiana said:

do sometimes wonder if JD's "bachelor till the rapture" comments are really more to get the public and his parents off his back as he wants more of a Whit Bates than an Anna Duggar, but is waiting until the spotlight dies down a bit to ease his family into it.  And no, I'm not just saying that because I would totally snatch that man up (as long as he's willing to make minor religious and gender-role concessions, of course).  It's incredibly inconvenient that JD has grown into my type of man, and I am most seriously displeased with myself due to this development.  

Defraud him! Go for it! Although you and the Duggars might have different definitions of “minor”...

[Jinder Roles]

I think Jinger’s change in style definitely had to do with change in environment (getting married, new climate, doing things on her own). We can never know if it’s all down to Jeremy (I doubt it) but he does have considerable influence on her. Remember that post she made about liking books more because Jeremy loves books?  That’s actually not uncommon in relationships.

To me, Jinger seems to have her own dislikes and can make decisions and take intitiative. But when around her family, she seems to defer decision-making to others.

I still don’t think she’s “free” though....whatever that means 

[Toothfairy]

None of the kids really changed. They're still associated with Jimchelle. I don' expect anyone to rebel any time soon. They still have fans and money. Jim Bob has more daughter' to marry off. Johanna is how old 11? 7/8 More years she will be 18/19 years old. The only ones left are the boys right now to marry off. With the exception of Jana. Jinger didn't change a lot. Jeremy is still homophobic, pro-life, and spews out bs

[Scrabblemaster]

There are definitely times I wear clothes because I know that Mr. S. likes them. Or because he thinks I Iook good in them. But the main reason for clothes being in my wardrobe is because I like them. Not because he told me I should buy them.  So I am not obeying him with wearing clothes he likes. And this is not a one-way street. Mr. S. wears clothes because he knows that I like them, or that I think he looks absolutely gorgeous and hot wearing them. So we both like to look good for the other one. (I like to look good for myself, I am not sure why I am writing this, this should be normal.)  And we do ask for advice with our clothes choice when we go out. And we both do tell the other one that this specific item would not be a great idea on that occasion. I only ask him for his advice, when I know I can accept his choice. And yes: During our last holiday I bought a dress that has my favourite colour, I think I look absolutely gorgeous and he DISAGREES with me. I bought it nevertheless. 

I assume that for most of us here in FJ it works both ways. The question is: Would Jeremy ask Jinger for advice on his clothes? Would she tell him that she does not like that specific pullover? The question I asked myself during this thread was: Does Jinger have a say in Jeremy's clothing?