Seewalds 32: The Big If

[IReallyAmHopewell]

On 4/9/2018 at 2:07 PM, Georgiana said:

Joy too.  

Without educated people and the advances of modern medicine, the Duggars would be an incredible tragedy: parents have 19 kids, only to watch all their daughters die in childbirth.  So far, not a single Duggar daughter has delivered her first without medical intervention.  

Without all the things these people hate, all the Duggar married daughters would be dead, sans Jinger, who would likely be living in fear for her life after watching all her sisters die, including her beloved Jessa, who she may have watched bleed out...helpless to save her.  The stress and desperation might drive her to border on an eating disorder, as she DESPERATELY restricts her food intake, trying anything to keep the child growing inside her small enough to deliver without complication...but still knowing it may not be enough.  The unmarried daughters might live in utter fear of marriage, wondering if perhaps they and their sisters have something that makes birth impossible and pregnancy a death sentence. 

THIS is the reality of the past they want to return to.  It's not the sunshine and roses they think it is.  It's full on Edgar Allen Poe.  

2

 

EXACTLY RIGHT. Yet these fools will continue to homebirth, feel cheated if they can't have a v-back and fear their child being destroyed if it is born in a hospital by plan, not by accident. It's amazing, but Michelle DID have sense enough to go to the hospital and to see an MD.  These girls--the new Mrs. Joe and future Mrs. Jboys included--have the potential to become homebirth martyrs.  For what? So sad.  If you want a home birth I'm not trashing you. But  for the Js when one sister has had such a horrible time, why risk it? You 're from the same parents. You are all pretty much built exactly alike---maybe someone is taller. Get some sense.

[Georgiana]

10 minutes ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

 

EXACTLY RIGHT. Yet these fools will continue to homebirth, feel cheated if they can't have a v-back and fear their child being destroyed if it is born in a hospital by plan, not by accident. It's amazing, but Michelle DID have sense enough to go to the hospital and to see an MD.  These girls--the new Mrs. Joe and future Mrs. Jboys included--have the potential to become homebirth martyrs.  For what? So sad.  If you want a home birth I'm not trashing you. But  for the Js when one sister has had such a horrible time, why risk it? You 're from the same parents. You are all pretty much built exactly alike---maybe someone is taller. Get some sense.

Joy especially boggles the mind.  Jessa and Jill had both had babies that were too large for them to deliver safely at home.  Jill had already had a second baby too large for her to birth vaginally.  Jessa said she deliberately manipulated her diet to keep Henry small, and he was STILL sizable.  

So OBVIOUSLY there is a risk of big babies in this family.  But does Joy even bother to go in for pre-natal care to see about the size of Gideon?  NO.  Because if she had, it would have been VERY clear that she was a poor candidate for homebirth, ESPECIALLY with family history.  But even with a sister and a nephew that nearly died during birth, she sticks her head in the sand, plans for a homebirth, and doesn't even sort of try to make sure she's choosing the safe option.

Joy Duggar Forsyth got damned lucky.  But it was a stupid, selfish decision.  For all her pro-life mumbo jumbo, when it came down to it, she didn't treat Gideon's life as precious.  She didn't try to protect it.  She risked it just so she could get a homebirthing gold medal.  THAT is what his life was worth: bragging rights.   I signed off of Joy at that point.  The rocks in my garden have more sense than her.  

[VelociRapture]

3 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Joy especially boggles the mind.  Jessa and Jill had both had babies that were too large for them to deliver safely at home.  Jill had already had a second baby too large for her to birth vaginally.  Jessa said she deliberately manipulated her diet to keep Henry small, and he was STILL sizable.  

So OBVIOUSLY there is a risk of big babies in this family.  But does Joy even bother to go in for pre-natal care to see about the size of Gideon?  NO.  Because if she had, it would have been VERY clear that she was a poor candidate for homebirth, ESPECIALLY with family history.  But even with a sister and a nephew that nearly died during birth, she sticks her head in the sand, plans for a homebirth, and doesn't even sort of try to make sure she's choosing the safe option.

Joy Duggar Forsyth got damned lucky.  But it was a stupid, selfish decision.  For all her pro-life mumbo jumbo, when it came down to it, she didn't treat Gideon's life as precious.  She didn't try to protect it.  She risked it just so she could get a homebirthing gold medal.  THAT is what his life was worth: bragging rights.   I signed off of Joy at that point.  The rocks in my garden have more sense than her.  

Jessa could have died from postpartum hemorrhaging after having Spurgeon, but as far as we know none of the babies have almost died. It’s possible that’s the case with Sam’s birth, but I doubt we’ll ever know what really happened when he was born.

That said, I do agree about Joy. I think it was foolish of her to attempt a home birth in the manner she appears to have. I feel for all the legitimate midwives and responsible home birthing parents out there because the Duggars make the entire concept look so bad and irresponsible. It can be a fantastic option, but only for women who are excellent candidates and who properly prepare for it (complete with backup plans if something goes wrong.) None of the Duggars have struck me as being even decent candidates for home birth and I honestly worry that one of them is going to suffer some really severe consequences one day.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

41 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

She risked it just so she could get a homebirthing gold medal.  THAT is what his life was worth: bragging rights.   I signed off of Joy at that point.  The rocks in my garden have more sense than her.  

Given her age and indoctrination, I'm not surprised. Birth has become about MOM and not about a safe outcome for both mother and child to many, many women today. But, you'd think MICHELLE would have said, "Precious J-whoever, looking at what those two other Jfools went thru, maybe you should do what I did and see a doctor and go to a hospital...." But no! That would expose a lie as big as the notiion of Jana being a "concert pianist"--namely that Jill is a MIDWIFE.  That would make it sound like their daughters have no careers!  Selfish selfish selfish.

[Georgiana]

42 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Jessa could have died from postpartum hemorrhaging after having Spurgeon, but as far as we know none of the babies have almost died. It’s possible that’s the case with Sam’s birth, but I doubt we’ll ever know what really happened when he was born.

That said, I do agree about Joy. I think it was foolish of her to attempt a home birth in the manner she appears to have. I feel for all the legitimate midwives and responsible home birthing parents out there because the Duggars make the entire concept look so bad and irresponsible. It can be a fantastic option, but only for women who are excellent candidates and who properly prepare for it (complete with backup plans if something goes wrong.) None of the Duggars have struck me as being even decent candidates for home birth and I honestly worry that one of them is going to suffer some really severe consequences one day.

You're right.  I should have said that Sam required medical care after his birth.  We really don't know what happened, if it could have been prevented, or if it was serious.  As far as we know, it might have been more precautionary than necessary.    

And like you, I also have no issues with homebirth.  I even understood why Jill and Jessa decided to try homebirth with their firsts.  They were poor candidates for many reasons, but with the Duggar history up to that point I somewhat understand why they expected uncomplicated births and thought it would be a good option.  But Joy was just willful ignorance.  

I'm hopeful that Jinger will buck the trend and at least go to a birthing center with her daughter.  Maybe if the other Duggars see her getting praised for making responsible birth decisions, they'll realize they don't have to double down on trying for homebirths when they aren't good candidates.  

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

Given her age and indoctrination, I'm not surprised. Birth has become about MOM and not about a safe outcome for both mother and child to many, many women today. But, you'd think MICHELLE would have said, "Precious J-whoever, looking at what those two other Jfools went thru, maybe you should do what I did and see a doctor and go to a hospital...." But no! That would expose a lie as big as the notiion of Jana being a "concert pianist"--namely that Jill is a MIDWIFE.  That would make it sound like their daughters have no careers!  Selfish selfish selfish.

How do we know she didn’t say something? The cameras don’t follow these people around every second of the day. It’s absolutely possible that Michelle has made suggestions and her daughter’s just haven’t listened. 

[SassyPants]

I think the reason the Duggar women do not get medical care is because they (like many Americans) have no or very limited health care insurance. I had 2 c section deliveries and did not have bills that required a year of payments (as D. Dillard claimed they had). I also had dual insurance coverage at the time.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

On 4/9/2018 at 7:44 AM, SapphireSlytherin said:

Yep. She knew this pic would be all over the inter webs and she didn't want anyone saying she was pregnant because she was wearing a swing dress.

Which, by the way, is an extremely comfortable way to dress. I have two and LOVE them (LulaRoe's Carly). I would live in them, actually, if I could get away with it.

She’s holding her dress because the wind is blowing. Look at Michelle’s hair and Hannie’s dress.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

They don't get health care because they feel it shows a lack of faith in God. They truly believe God will take care of them and they don't NEED modern science to survive, except when they do.  

I know so many fundy to fundylite folks who believe modern medicine is all about God making life easier for them, thankfully many many more of them are like that than are like the Duggar's. 

[emmeline]

I fear it's only a matter of time before something goes extremely wrong with a Duggar birth.

I had a complication with DS1 that is diagnosed via ultrasound and is life threatening for mum and baby. Because I had good prenatal care, it was diagnosed, I had a planned c section and we were both fine. If it hadn't have been detected and I'd attempted a natural delivery, DS1 would probably be dead and I'd very likely be dead too. I worry especially for Jill and Joy now that they've had c sections as this increases their risk of conditions like placenta previa and placenta accreta which are very dangerous without proper care (eg competent doctors/midwives, scans from professionals, etc). 

I know that they may do this and just not show it, and I hope that this is the case - but I doubt it. 

[PainfullyAware]

Could someone remedy my ignorance on the subject of why Joy took a greater risk then Jill or Jessa with their firsts? Is it because having a breech baby is always detectable in advance or something like that? Or just because of the family history? If it's the latter it seems to me that Joy's experience wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with her sisters' experiences, and I thought that Joy had a real Midwife along with Jill. 

[AtlanticTug]

Every Duggar daughter should have an ultrasound around 32 weeks to estimate the size of the baby and if baby is huge, follow ups every 2 weeks. This is standard course for diabetics and gestational diabetics in order to see who is high risk for shoulder dystocia and other issues related to delivering a large for gestational age baby. If Joy had done this she would have known she has a behemoth on her hands AND that he is breech. Frankly a breach or transverse baby of that size is very easy to determine for a good midwife or OB which tells me she consulted neither.

Jessa is the only one who at least seems to have some concept of how baby size affects delivery though she was willing to risk a home birth post hemorrhage so obviously her lessons learned were limited. Just because she got lucky doesn’t make it right.

[SapphireSlytherin]

9 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

She’s holding her dress because the wind is blowing. Look at Michelle’s hair and Hannie’s dress.

Clearly, the sarcasm was lost somewhere in my post. lol

[Nargus]

3 hours ago, PainfullyAware said:

Could someone remedy my ignorance on the subject of why Joy took a greater risk then Jill or Jessa with their firsts? Is it because having a breech baby is always detectable in advance or something like that? Or just because of the family history? If it's the latter it seems to me that Joy's experience wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with her sisters' experiences, and I thought that Joy had a real Midwife along with Jill. 

If only one sister had needed medical intervention, then Joy would get a bit more of a pass I think. Maybe it was a fluke.  But the 2 sisters who had babies before her had huge first babies and needed emergency medical intervention. To a sensible person, that would raise a bit of a 'maybe I should get some more in depth care to make sure my baby and I are safe' flag.  If she had proper care she would have known baby Gideon was breech ahead of time, and possibly been able to turn him prior to labour.  She would have also known that he was going to be a huge little man.  

 

I shudder to think what's going to happen when one of them tries home birthing a 15lb bowling ball of a baby and ends up with a 4th degree tear.

[2manyKidzzz]

I do not understand why they keep going with the home birth scenario. To me it is idiotic given what has gone on so far. 

I mean, really, have the baby in a birth center, healthy for all, and then go on with your life. Avoid tragedy. 

[SassyPants]

They leave everything up to God.

So God gave them a heart, a reproductive tract in order to conceive, arms, legs, a GI tract, but how come the Duggars do not acknowledge that God also gifted them with a brain for thinking and reasoning?

The Duggars have let their devotion to God via the altar of JB Duggar to interfere with their abilities to make informed and logical decisions. For the small a decisions, say a white wedding dress or a blush dress, shoes or no shoes, the decisions made are not life threatening, but on these births, their inabilities to make informed, logical, knowledgeable decisions is so stark. I loathe what Michelle and JB have done to these kids. Michelle was informed and logical enough to get her ass to trained medical professionals. Gosh damn bikini- wearing that bikini while mowing the lawn...

[PainfullyAware]

 Thanks for explaining about breech babies! I know this is been said before but I just find it so bizarre that they don't seem to believe modern medicine could be a gift from a loving God. I know for a fact that some devout Christians believe that. They seem to approach it like some kind of occasionally necessary evil.

[Nargus]

19 minutes ago, PainfullyAware said:

 Thanks for explaining about breech babies! I know this is been said before but I just find it so bizarre that they don't seem to believe modern medicine could be a gift from a loving God. I know for a fact that some devout Christians believe that. They seem to approach it like some kind of occasionally necessary evil.

I know a lot of very devout Christians who whole heartedly believe in modern medicine.  When a friend's husband went in for surgery, their prayers weren't for a miraculous recovery, they prayed for steady hands, a successful surgery, and a smooth recovery.  Then again, those same people have said some pretty questionable things too. 

[Carm_88]

13 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

They don't get health care because they feel it shows a lack of faith in God. They truly believe God will take care of them and they don't NEED modern science to survive, except when they do.  

I know so many fundy to fundylite folks who believe modern medicine is all about God making life easier for them, thankfully many many more of them are like that than are like the Duggar's. 

I was always told that God looks out for those who look out for themselves. The Duggars could have insurance of some sort and they would still home birth, that's my opinion. They have it in their heads that it's the best way. I personally believe that God busy, there's a lot going on in this whole world. Make it a bit easier, go to the hospital, get the right care, and so on. That just won't happen.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

2 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I do not understand why they keep going with the home birth scenario. To me it is idiotic given what has gone on so far. 

I mean, really, have the baby in a birth center, healthy for all, and then go on with your life. Avoid tragedy. 

Because God made women to give birth--it is 'natural' and Gothard teaches this is the way. A childless, pervert who lived all his life with his Mom is telling women how to give birth.....

[candygirl200413]

I thought the lack of health insurance/care was not only because God but also because of Gothard believing that home births for example were better.

IF they did have insurance though, would they still be able to get the not truly experience mid wives?

[2manyKidzzz]

@candygirl200413 This we don’t know.  I feel like at this point we should start prayer chains when the next Duggar woman goes into labor....or is getting close. Really. It is concerning. 

[HereticHick]

17 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I think the reason the Duggar women do not get medical care is because they (like many Americans) have no or very limited health care insurance. I had 2 c section deliveries and did not have bills that required a year of payments (as D. Dillard claimed they had). I also had dual insurance coverage at the time.

Jim Bob is a millionaire, even without TLC money. The Duggars CHOOSE not to have adequate health insurance; they could afford it--at least for the breed mares.

[Chewing Gum]

42 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

Jim Bob is a millionaire, even without TLC money. The Duggars CHOOSE not to have adequate health insurance; they could afford it--at least for the breed mares.

I highly doubt Jim-Bob gives a lot of money to any of his kids. They’re on their own with little to no education. 

 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

We truly do NOT know if they have insurance. I say they do--both Duggars had insurance licenses.  They are too savvy about that to just ignore it. It may be that they had catastrophic only or something, but I'm betting they have some sort of policy at least on Michelle when she was in childbearing years. They didn't hesitate to go to the hospital and she saw MDs. 

What the young couples have? Who knows--likely they just pay the penalty for not being covered.