Joy & Austin 21: Still Talking About Baby Gideon

[Fascinated]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

Over 50 years ago, my sister had a vertical c section. 3 years later she had a VBAC. This was in England. 

Oh. That’s interesting!  I didn’t think that was an option. I had c-sections scheduled several weeks before my due dates in order to eliminate that risk. I’m very glad your sister was able to do that!  

[Sky with diamonds]

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I'm so over judging people for what they name their kids.

Except Jessa. I'll always judge her for Spurgeon.

I have a hunch that name was Ben's choice, than Jessa's. 

[SamuraiKatz]

this is from the Ellie duggar fan page but she talks about Joy's birth and the episode and there is no mention of another midwife just that Jill made the decision that the labor wasn't progressing. so it sounds like Jill was all Joy had but TLC didn't want to say that. 
http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2018/03/joys-c-section-delivery.html

Joy and Austin decided to have the baby at Camp Fort Rock. Given the birth histories of Jessa and Jill, this was negligent prebirth parenting.

Joy must have had no prenatal care other than Jill and mystery midwife. An OB GYN or a certified nurse midwife would have been clued in at least to Gideon's size and position. Hell, Dr. Fedofsky and his wife would hace been better than nothing.

I live in one of the small towns between that location and Washington Regional Medical Center--a one hour drive under perfect conditions. The closest full ambulance service is Fayetteville. Elkins has a rescue unit at the fire station..20ish miles from CFR. The McMansion near the TTH would have been a safer choice.

My Buddhist prayers for you, little Gideon. You are going to need them.

[MamaJunebug]

This has probably been discussed before but it occurred to me:

They try to birth the babies at home  because it’s much easier for the camera crews and in fact, most hospitals wouldn’t allow it. 

[candygirl200413]

I thought it was more funding wise(not having someone really certified as a cheaper option) and what Gothard wants?

[marmalade]

8 minutes ago, SamuraiKatz said:

Joy and Austin decided to have the baby at Camp Fort Rock. Given the birth histories of Jessa and Jill, this was negligent prebirth parenting.

Joy must have had no prenatal care other than Jill and mystery midwife. An OB GYN or a certified nurse midwife would have been clued in at least to Gideon's size and position. Hell, Dr. Fedofsky and his wife would hace been better than nothing.

I live in one of the small towns between that location and Washington Regional Medical Center--a one hour drive under perfect conditions. The closest full ambulance service is Fayetteville. Elkins has a rescue unit at the fire station..20ish miles from CFR. The McMansion near the TTH would have been a safer choice.

My Buddhist prayers for you, little Gideon. You are going to need them.

They weren't at Fort Rock. They were at their home in Ellkins (on the Fayetteville border). 

[SamuraiKatz]

They weren't at Fort Rock. They were at their home in Ellkins (on the Fayetteville border). 

My bad. Elkins is better than cfr..only 12 ish miles. Still a huge risk

My bad. Elkins is better than cfr..only 12 ish miles. Still a huge risk

And there is no way for me to correct that info. My fault for not double checking.

[marmalade]

Oh, I agree. Their place appears to be out in the middle of nowhere. They probably have to drive to the nearest convenience store. 

What hospital do you think Joy went to? There's a big one in Fayetteville, IIRC. Is there anything closer?

[metheglyn]

13 minutes ago, SamuraiKatz said:

My bad. Elkins is better than cfr..only 12 ish miles. Still a huge riskAnd there is no way for me to correct that info. My fault for not double checking.

In the first part of the birth special Joy is asked by Roxanne if she "has a plan B if something happens" during the homebirth (Presumably this is scripted, since they always ask the weirdest questions on camera.)

Joy specifically replies that if they decide the situation means she needs to get checked out they're going to the "closest" hospital, "which is like 25, 30 minutes away." In a subsequent TH she elaborates that she picked a home birth because "it's more comfortable" and she wanted to "at least try it" and they're "only 30 minutes from the hospital, so it's not too bad." 

Do they realize just HOW FAST things can go wrong, and that 30 minutes is PLENTY of time for things to tank horribly? Yes, yes, God is Good and all that, but they are so naively optimistic for having already had so many problems within their OWN family.

[SamuraiKatz]

Oh, I agree. Their place appears to be out in the middle of nowhere. They probably have to drive to the nearest convenience store. 
What hospital do you think Joy went to? There's a big one in Fayetteville, IIRC. Is there anything closer?

Washington Regional is the closest hospital.

We aren't in the middle of nowhere. ;-) Elkins' main drag has a cattle ranch, 2 hardware/feed stores, liquor store, Dollar General, Sonic, two convenience stores, McDonalds, Harps Grocery and two baptist churches. Still rural but still small town.

Joy and Austin are ten minutes tops from my house. The Duggar borg spreads....

[LacyMay]

Only 30 minutes away from a hospital. ONLY??? 

Mr. May and I don't plan on having kids but when we were undecided I thought a bit about what I would want. And I made the decision to not even attempt a home birth if we were more than 15 mins from a hospital and that was my max I would probably not feel comfortable with less than 5. 

Sure women have been birthing babies for hundreds of years. They have also been dying in child birth for hundreds of years. 30 mins is a long time to go without medical attention in a crisis. 

I won't judge her for or begrudge her choice to have a home birth but that distance is just such a risk. 

IMHO of course 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, LacyMay said:

Only 30 minutes away from a hospital. ONLY???

I'm in a medium-big city. We are probably about halfway between the two hospitals, and in bad traffic, it probably takes us 30 minutes to get to one. However, I had 2 hospital births and an ambulance could probably get here faster than 30 minutes in a real emergency.

I chose the hospital I did because they are more flexible, a bit like I imagine a birthing center is. I had an OB, but I could have chosen a CNM from the same practice. The labor and delivery room was comfortable and not bare feeling. I was able to walk and move around while in labor, except when I was getting IV antibiotics. I used a birthing ball and could have labored in a tub or shower. (No water births, though.) The nurses and doctor knew that my birth plan was "I have no idea. I'll give anything a try," so they let me decide what I wanted to do as much as possible.

And I was sure glad to be in a hospital when I needed a shot to stop bleeding. I guess I'm just thankful I had good choices available to me.

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, metheglyn said:

Do they realize just HOW FAST things can go wrong, and that 30 minutes is PLENTY of time for things to tank horribly? Yes, yes, God is Good and all that, but they are so naively optimistic for having already had so many problems within their OWN family.

Exactly! Yes, things can go wrong and when they do every second counts. They have had things go wrong and its has never once changed their minds, not one of them have woken up or had any realization? How do you look at how badly things went wrong with Israel's birth, then Spurgeon's and not think I better get prenatal care?  

[TeaELSee]

I watched the TLC video and it seemed like Joy is not mature/old enough to handle this quite yet.  I am not judging her, if I would have a kid at 19-20 I can’t imagine how that poor kid would have turned out! 

She struck me as overwhelmed and kind of numb, I can’t put my finger on it.  I didn’t see any real warmth or gushing over him. I had an emergency C section and I was thrilled and completely in love with my son right after he was born. I couldn’t stop staring at him. I might be way off base, however, in my opinion something was missing.

After he was born she referred to him as “it” a few times and that really jumped out at me.

[freethemall]

6 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

This has probably been discussed before but it occurred to me:

They try to birth the babies at home  because it’s much easier for the camera crews and in fact, most hospitals wouldn’t allow it. 

I don't think each of these births the film crew got there in time - they've used hand held cameras for at least 1-2, like Jill's first. Which would make more sense with their modesty standards.

37 minutes ago, TeaELSee said:

I watched the TLC video and it seemed like Joy is not mature/old enough to handle this quite yet.  I am not judging her, if I would have a kid at 19-20 I can’t imagine how that poor kid would have turned out! 

She struck me as overwhelmed and kind of numb, I can’t put my finger on it.  I didn’t see any real warmth or gushing over him. I had an emergency C section and I was thrilled and completely in love with my son right after he was born. I couldn’t stop staring at him. I might be way off base, however, in my opinion something was missing.

After he was born she referred to him as “it” a few times and that really jumped out at me.

I dunno, I can't judge her for that because labor is so overwhelming and exhausting that by the time you have the baby, as happy as you are it's also hard to act giddy when you're wiped out. Both in the pictures of myself after having the baby and others I've seen I don't look particularly happy afterwards though I was, just more happy on the inside even though the outside I was a mess.

Now the "it" thing, that's just weird.

[RainbowSky]

If they didn't find out his sex, they've probably been calling him it since they found out about him....

[SapphireSlytherin]

10 minutes ago, RainbowSky said:

If they didn't find out his sex, they've probably been calling him it since they found out about him....

We didn't know GryffindorDisappointment was a girl, but I referred to her as "the baby" or "him" when conversing. Never "it."

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 hours ago, TeaELSee said:

I watched the TLC video and it seemed like Joy is not mature/old enough to handle this quite yet.  I am not judging her, if I would have a kid at 19-20 I can’t imagine how that poor kid would have turned out! 

She struck me as overwhelmed and kind of numb, I can’t put my finger on it.  I didn’t see any real warmth or gushing over him. I had an emergency C section and I was thrilled and completely in love with my son right after he was born. I couldn’t stop staring at him. I might be way off base, however, in my opinion something was missing.

After he was born she referred to him as “it” a few times and that really jumped out at me.

She probably WAS numb, it is called exhaustion. Also not everyone bonds instantly with their babies, I didn't, I was really out of it for a few MONTHS after my son was born, and my family was concerned because I had very little interest in my baby, I eventually got there but he was about 5 months old. With my 2nd baby it was totally different, mama bear came out with in minutes I had that instant bond, not sure what the difference was but it was.

I can't watch the videos because Dish isn't on the TLC list of cable providers (because Dish SUCKS), but I'm sure the 20 hours of labor the c/section, and the 3 days after the fact of all the visitors and such. My 1st was similar long labor and then a c/section it really takes a lot out of you, and if you don't get that instant bond it can look like what you described.   

[VBOY9977]

3 hours ago, TeaELSee said:

I watched the TLC video and it seemed like Joy is not mature/old enough to handle this quite yet.  I am not judging her, if I would have a kid at 19-20 I can’t imagine how that poor kid would have turned out! 

She struck me as overwhelmed and kind of numb, I can’t put my finger on it.  I didn’t see any real warmth or gushing over him. I had an emergency C section and I was thrilled and completely in love with my son right after he was born. I couldn’t stop staring at him. I might be way off base, however, in my opinion something was missing.

After he was born she referred to him as “it” a few times and that really jumped out at me.

She had just gone through 20 hours of labor, and then she had a freaking surgery. To me she just looks exhausted, which i completely understand. 

If you look at the video TLC released just a few days after Gideon’s birth, Joy looks happy and in love with her baby.

[Seculardaisy]

9 hours ago, metheglyn said:

In the first part of the birth special Joy is asked by Roxanne if she "has a plan B if something happens" during the homebirth (Presumably this is scripted, since they always ask the weirdest questions on camera.)

Joy specifically replies that if they decide the situation means she needs to get checked out they're going to the "closest" hospital, "which is like 25, 30 minutes away." In a subsequent TH she elaborates that she picked a home birth because "it's more comfortable" and she wanted to "at least try it" and they're "only 30 minutes from the hospital, so it's not too bad." 

Do they realize just HOW FAST things can go wrong, and that 30 minutes is PLENTY of time for things to tank horribly? Yes, yes, God is Good and all that, but they are so naively optimistic for having already had so many problems within their OWN family.

Coming from somebody who birthed a baby in a car, I’m here to tell Joy that thirty minutes CAN be a pretty big deal.

[front hugs > duggs]

Rufus forgive me because I am SOOOO bad at photoshopping, but this is what's in my head every time someone mentions "Camp Fort Rock" :

 

[Eternalbluepearl]

23 minutes ago, Seculardaisy said:

Coming from somebody who birthed a baby in a car, I’m here to tell Joy that thirty minutes CAN be a pretty big deal.

I was thinking the exact same thing. 30 minutes can be huge especially in an emergency. I really really don't want to be mean but sometimes I think the Duggars aren't super intelligent. 

[Seculardaisy]

55 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

I was thinking the exact same thing. 30 minutes can be huge especially in an emergency. I really really don't want to be mean but sometimes I think the Duggars aren't super intelligent. 

And the thing is, it’s fine to choose hospitals that are 25-30 mins away for normal labors but the problem is the Duggar women don’t go to those hospitals until they have been in labor for a day or so, it’s already been so long that time is tight and they don’t really have time to blow driving thirty minutes in an emergent situation. IMO this is where they put their health and baby’s health at risk.

[Georgiana]

Frankly, none of this shocks me.  These were stupid, absolutely moronic choices.  An older child could have instinctively put the pieces together and told Joy that with the birth history of her sister's, she should have been more prepared for complications.  A teenager could have told her that she should probably be EXPECTING this outcome, honestly.

But this is Joy Anna Duggar.  She had parents who DELIBERATELY squashed any and all signs of critical thought they came across.  She was under-educated, even by Duggar standards.  

She didn't think of ANY of this because she's trained not to think.  She's trained to follow and obey and keep sweet.  

And that's the thing: these kidults aren't suddenly going to morph into adults like their parents think they will. They aren't going to go from sheltered, uneducated, emotionally stunted kids into fully-functioning adults.  That's not a thing that happens.  Joy isn't going to suddenly have the ability to make good, well-thought out adult decisions.   Instead, she's going to make bad, poorly-thought out decisions probably on the basis of religion.

Because by many accounts, Joy is one of the most religious of the bunch.  She's compensated for her inability to make decisions by adhering to a religion that will make ALL her decisions for her.  Why do the hard work of learning how to critically think when someone can just TELL you what to do instead?!? So she may not even learn and start making better decisions.  Instead, she may double down and just let her religion do all the thinking.

Joy is the ultimate product of her parents' upbringing.  She is EXACTLY the kind of non-thinking follower her parents wanted to produce.  And it may kill her or her children.

[justmy2cents]

1 hour ago, Seculardaisy said:

Coming from somebody who birthed a baby in a car, I’m here to tell Joy that thirty minutes CAN be a pretty big deal.

I agree. My sister's hospital is about 30 minutes away. She left the house with what she described as mild contractions. About 15 minutes later her water broke and she could feel the baby's head. Crossed her legs and screamed at her husband to drive faster. Baby came 7 minutes after they got to the hospital.