Josh, Anna and the Ms 16: The sins of our fathers

[VelociRapture]

31 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

to me none of that is an excuse she stayed and she had another baby and probably many more in the future if she wants to ruin her own life that's on her but no way can I call someone who would subject children and bring new children into the world  with a father like that a good person or mother. 

I own it I judge Anna and always will. 

I’m not asking you to like her or agree with her. All I’m saying is that her situation was/is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. There’s a lot of unknown factors when it comes to why Anna chose to stay and I’m personally not comfortable judging her because of that.

And this is 100% friendly advice: I’m not really sure what you mean by, “a father like that.” I’d caution you to be very careful moving forward if you’re referring to the molestations scandal though. We have zero evidence Josh was ever a threat to anyone other than his five victims and FJ does not allow speculation regarding other possible victims (or speculation about the identity of the fifth unnamed victim, who has chosen to stay silent this far.) If That is what you were referencing just be careful what you say and how you say it moving forward. If not you can just disregard this.

[Ivycoveredtower]

10 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m not asking you to like her or agree with her. All I’m saying is that her situation was/is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. There’s a lot of unknown factors when it comes to why Anna chose to stay and I’m personally not comfortable judging her because of that.

And this is 100% friendly advice: I’m not really sure what you mean by, “a father like that.” I’d caution you to be very careful moving forward if you’re referring to the molestations scandal though. We have zero evidence Josh was ever a threat to anyone other than his five victims and FJ does not allow speculation regarding other possible victims (or speculation about the identity of the fifth unnamed victim, who has chosen to stay silent this far.) If That is what you were referencing just be careful what you say and how you say it moving forward. If not you can just disregard this.

I met it in a father who was even capable of those things to begin with who now the M's will forever have to live with knowing that their father did this to his victims and to their mother.  I did feel sympathy for her when it first happened now I just feel for the now and future M's who have to live with one day finding out the truth. 

I think of how hurt they are going to be. it will probably feel like their life was a lie.   I remember watching the interviews when Counting on first came on and they were talking about it all. the two that really stood out to me were Jana and John David they seemed the most real and heartbroken. 

thank you for the warning about the other stuff though as I was not aware of that specific rule. 

[VelociRapture]

7 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I met it in a father who was even capable of those things to begin with who now the M's will forever have to live with knowing that their father did this to his victims and to their mother.  I did feel sympathy for her when it first happened now I just feel for the now and future M's who have to live with one day finding out the truth. 

I think of how hurt they are going to be. it will probably feel like their life was a lie.   I remember watching the interviews when Counting on first came on and they were talking about it all. the two that really stood out to me were Jana and John David they seemed the most real and heartbroken. 

thank you for the warning about the other stuff though as I was not aware of that specific rule. 

You’re welcome!  

And I understand now, so thank you for clarifying. I definitely feel more for the innocent kids then I do any of the adults, but Anna was also raised from birth to think this is literally her sole purpose in life. It can be very difficult for even a strong and determined person to shake teachings and brainwashing like that off completely. I think Anna is a strong person in some ways, but I don’t think she necessarily has the strength or will to leave at this point. She may never be capable of that.

At the end of the day, Anna has chosen to stay with Josh and to raise her children in the cult. I don’t agree with subjecting the kids to those teachings at all, but remaining in the marriage is 100% Anna’s right to decide if she felt that was right for her and her family. I think it is important to remember that Anna is a victim too though - a victim of a cheating husband, of IBLP, and of parents who raised her to be a subservient doormat. 

[VineHeart137]

Anna shared pics of the M kids (minus Mason) don't worry no pics of Josh. I've always thought the M kids favored Anna but Mackynzie looks a lot like Johannah in the last pic to me.

[Carm_88]

Mac really does look all Duggar there. That's interesting. I can see both Johanna and Jana in her. 

[KelseyAnn]

Mack is SUCH a mini Anna, it's like someone photoshopped her face unto the kids. 

[singsingsing]

13 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

Mack is SUCH a mini Anna, it's like someone photoshopped her face unto the kids. 

I agree! It's funny, because so many are saying she looks like a Duggar, and while I do see a little resemblance, I think she really favours Anna's side of the family. All her kids do.

[SapphireSlytherin]

I think she's a 50/50 blend of Duggar and Keller.

And that ponytail headband thing is still around. lol

[sta_sha]

I see a lot of Duggar in the M kids. Except Mack, she’s all Anna. They’re all pretty cute though! 

[Satan'sFortress]

I've always thought Anna's kids were super cute--these are really nice pictures.  Agree with the others who think they look like Anna's family.  I wish they didn't have the father they did. I say that even without his particular, unique offenses---I just wish these kids had a chance at a normal life.  I would guess they are happy---and have lots of people who love them, but it is hard to think they will likely never have the chance at a decent education or to explore interests beyond the cult. 

Such sweet little faces.  They always look like dolls to me.

[Ivycoveredtower]

I think Meredith and her Cousin Davia look really similar.  the Duggar kids have a good mix between the family's but man those Waller kids have so much Keller in them.

[raised in rebellion]

I'm surprised to find defenders of Anna on fj... Josh received no real therapy. Anna is gross to stay with him.  And she's playing a very dangerous game of Russian roulette with her daughters. I don't care if I'm down voted for my opinion, either. He's a child molester. She is choosing to stay with a child molester. I see no reason to defend her. People want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but doubt her brother's offer to help? Am I missing something? Is her brother a known liar? Because her husband is. 

I have no doubt that she has her reasons, but no reason is good enough. 

[singsingsing]

8 minutes ago, raised in rebellion said:

I'm surprised to find defenders of Anna on fj... Josh received no real therapy. Anna is gross to stay with him.  And she's playing a very dangerous game of Russian roulette with her daughters. I don't care if I'm down voted for my opinion, either. He's a child molester. She is choosing to stay with a child molester. I see no reason to defend her. People want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but doubt her brother's offer to help? Am I missing something? Is her brother a known liar? Because her husband is. 

I have no doubt that she has her reasons, but no reason is good enough. 

I totally understand where you're coming from. And if I thought that she knew that Josh was a danger to her children, I would absolutely judge her, and judge her quite harshly, for staying with him. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Of course that's an assumption on my part, but that's all we really have. So I can't exactly judge her for something that may very well not be reality. I think the crux of it is that to me, her reasons for staying with him do seem good enough. She's in a really shitty position and staying with Josh may very well have been the best of all the shitty options. That said, of course my ultimate hope for her would be that she could find a way to leave the destructive cult of Christian fundamentalism with her children, whether she takes Josh with them or not.

[Satan'sFortress]

5 hours ago, raised in rebellion said:

I'm surprised to find defenders of Anna on fj... Josh received no real therapy. Anna is gross to stay with him.  And she's playing a very dangerous game of Russian roulette with her daughters. I don't care if I'm down voted for my opinion, either. He's a child molester. She is choosing to stay with a child molester. I see no reason to defend her. People want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but doubt her brother's offer to help? Am I missing something? Is her brother a known liar? Because her husband is. 

I have no doubt that she has her reasons, but no reason is good enough. 

Just to be clear:

She apparently knew at least some of the child molestation issues before she married him, IIRC.  She married him anyway, and for that, I do fault her.  Yes, she was young, sheltered, inexperienced, and likely infatuated with Josh as a Big Fundie Star.  But still, I think she was foolish to marry him knowing what she did. I'm with you on that 100%.

What came later, after they were married with 3-1/2 kids, was that he admitted to porn, & then I'm not sure if he admitted to or was just accused of the Ashley Madison account & the affair.  She took him back after that.  I think a lot of spouses do try to work things out after that kind of betrayal---for all the reasons other posters have listed.  If he was accused of child molestation currently and she took him back, that is just wrong and horrible, but she had already made the decision to accept/forgive/overlook . . . whatever . . . his "youthful sins"  .  So, really, this recent forgiveness of him was just for the porn & the alleged affair.

Do I need to say that I am not in any way defending him?  I am not in any way defending him.  Nor am I condoning Anna's choice to stay.  Merely trying to clear up that she didn't JUST find out about the child molestation and decide to stay.

[Daisy0322]

My lord those are cute babies! I think they all favor Anna. However Josh and Anna look similar to me so it's hard to really say. Mac is gorgeous though, looks a lot like Anna's sister if you ask me... I forget her name. 

[marmalade]

Mac and Suze's daughter, Noelle, are practically dead ringers. 

[raised in rebellion]

Then she's disgusting for procreating with someone who she knew messed with his sisters, and weak enough to show she will forgive whatever piggy actions he takes. Great. I'm sure they'll work together to hide future abuses. That's what they do. 

Defending apologists of molesters just isn't my thing. It reminds me of the Smorton speculation of what Bret was up to before he was raping his child/ren. [removed speculation that is contrary to rules - samurai_sarah] You protect your children. Period. Living with a known molester and giving him pretty little girls has no defense. I get that people do it, but these people are enablers and do not warrant my sympathy and compassion. 

I do appreciate the clarity. She's always known, so she's always been vile. She had options and refused them for whatever reasons. Sticking with my opinion of Ewww.

[VelociRapture]

@raised in rebellionTo clarify, we don’t know exactly what the Duggars did or did not reveal to the Kellers prior to the marriage. It’s possible they told them the full story, but it’s equally possible they got a very sanitized version with little to no details given (for instance, an explanation about how he sinned in his heart but how he sought forgiveness or something equally as idiotic.) Regardless of what she was told back then, she would have known everything after the news broke in 2015 when she was already pregnant with Meredith.

And I want to be clear that no one here is defending Josh or his actions. Nor are we insisting that Anna be given a free pass for her choices either. I don’t agree with her staying with him. I don’t like that she chose to do so. But I also don’t know what it’s like to be born and raised IBLP. I try hard to keep that in mind when I post because I can’t fully understand the role that may be playing here.

[raised in rebellion]

@VelociRapture I think what I found upsetting was you telling someone to tread lightly about referring to the molestations and what sort of father he is. This is exactly when we oughtn't tread lightly. I get that as far as we know, he "only" molested 4 sisters and someone else...So we know he's not only comfortable violating people under his authority, but also comfortable with incest. 

It isn't about free passes. It's about calling out slime and those to enable and perpetuate it. I couldn't care less about the Ashley Madison stuff. That's their marriage. I'll bet she cared though. And then stayed. With a known incestuous molester. And I should be nicer cos religion? Not gonna happen. I'm an expert in perverts. They don't stop or change what they're into. Ever. He might exercise restraint, but hahahahahaha no he won't. And I'll blame them both equally when it happens. 

I feel bad for how they were raised. Lots of people are abused. Now they're adults, putting a new generation at risk, and regardless of when she found out, her eyes are wide open now. And she chooses to have more babies. Smart. Super great mom. Dad might sneak into your riom someday just like he did you SEVERAL of your aunties, but hey! Heart eggs! Sleep well! Mom has her reasons!

[Crazy Enough to Join]

8 minutes ago, raised in rebellion said:

@VelociRapture I think what I found upsetting was you telling someone to tread lightly about referring to the molestations and what sort of father he is. This is exactly when we oughtn't tread lightly. I get that as far as we know, he "only" molested 4 sisters and someone else...So we know he's not only comfortable violating people under his authority, but also comfortable with incest. 

It isn't about free passes. It's about calling out slime and those to enable and perpetuate it. I couldn't care less about the Ashley Madison stuff. That's their marriage. I'll bet she cared though. And then stayed. With a known incestuous molester. And I should be nicer cos religion? Not gonna happen. I'm an expert in perverts. They don't stop or change what they're into. Ever. He might exercise restraint, but hahahahahaha no he won't. And I'll blame them both equally when it happens. 

I feel bad for how they were raised. Lots of people are abused. Now they're adults, putting a new generation at risk, and regardless of when she found out, her eyes are wide open now. And she chooses to have more babies. Smart. Super great mom. Dad might sneak into your riom someday just like he did you SEVERAL of your aunties, but hey! Heart eggs! Sleep well! Mom has her reasons!

Actually I was reading a statistic saying that many juvenile sex offenders go on to re-offend, but not against children. For example, committing theft or a crime of violence against an adult. This is in contrast with adults who molest children who usually do feel the desire to molest a child again. The study was saying that the sex part is more of a convenient acting out of aggression for juvenile sex offenders rather than any actual attraction to children so will often not be repeated in adulthood.

[viii]

4 hours ago, raised in rebellion said:

She had options

Anna had no options. She literally had ZERO options. She was raised in a very sheltered home, brainwashed into believing herself to be inferior, and had limited education and funds. She had four children to think after, and when the majority of her family was surely encouraging her to forgive her husband and stay, it would have been almost impossible for her to walk away. She would have had no way of supporting her family, and despite the fact that you think it would have been easy and she would have had support, that's simply not the case. Would majority of the world have supported her? Probably, but those people are very, very far away. The people actually IN Anna's world and involved in her life would have withdrawn, and she would have been very alone. That is a hard place to be when you're prepared for it, and when you aren't prepared for it? I don't blame her for staying, because coming from a similar background, I understand that she felt at the time she had no other option but to stay. 

I don't judge Anna for staying - I pity her. Someday, I hope she will get to the point where she has the means and the courage to walk away, not only for herself, but for her children as well. 

[Georgiana]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@raised in rebellionTo clarify, we don’t know exactly what the Duggars did or did not reveal to the Kellers prior to the marriage. It’s possible they told them the full story, but it’s equally possible they got a very sanitized version with little to no details given (for instance, an explanation about how he sinned in his heart but how he sought forgiveness or something equally as idiotic.) Regardless of what she was told back then, she would have known everything after the news broke in 2015 when she was already pregnant with Meredith.

And I want to be clear that no one here is defending Josh or his actions. Nor are we insisting that Anna be given a free pass for her choices either. I don’t agree with her staying with him. I don’t like that she chose to do so. But I also don’t know what it’s like to be born and raised IBLP. I try hard to keep that in mind when I post because I can’t fully understand the role that may be playing here.

I know a good deal of people who were real fuck-ups at 15 that are now AMAZING adults.  I know a woman who nearly flunked out of high school for partying who just graduated magna cum laude from a top law school.  I know a woman who BARELY escaped multiple felony charges as a teen and is now a distinguished federal tax attorney and the most responsible person I know.  

I think everyone hopes that the person they are at 15 is NOT the person they are at 20.  And in most cases, I would say that's the truth.  

So I can understand overlooking something that happened when someone was a teenager and has not happened since.  I genuinely DO NOT believe people should be bound to their childhood mistakes for eternity.  The real red flag with Josh is that HE NEVER RECEIVED PROPER TREATMENT OR SUPPORT.

But Anna wouldn't see it that way because Anna thinks Jesus Jail IS the best support.  So to her, it would appear that Josh made a mistake, was truly remorseful, sought help, and reformed.  Just like my friends.  She would see him as no more likely to reoffend than my friends.  And I think it's so ludicrous as to be humorous to consider that my tax attorney friend might start vandalizing vehicles again just because she did at 17.  

Basically, I get it.  In MOST CASES we don't bind adults to their teenage poor choices.  We do with this one just because it is Josh and because of how it was handled.  But if you have a perspective closer to Anna's, you probably wouldn't see this as anything more than a teenage indiscretion, especially if you were handed a sanitized version of the story.

[VelociRapture]

@raised in rebellionI specifically told that poster to be cautious because we have a rule here barring speculation about the identities of any potential sexual assault victims. When it comes to Josh that means the only victims who can be specifically discussed are Jill, Jessa, Jinger, and Joy - all four of them stepped forward publicly as victims either through interviews and/or the lawsuit. Anyone else is off-limits for speculation and I wanted to be sure that poster knew that before stepping over the line accidentally. Here’s the specific section I’m referring to:

I’m almost positive that even hinting at anyone other than those four being a victim isn’t allowed, but I’ll flag this post to see if an Admin can clarify.

[hoipolloi]

Do NOT speculate on the identity of any victims of sexual abuse if such information has not been made public, whether or not such individuals are minors or adults. 

@raised in rebellion - you're within your rights to criticize Anna Duggar here but those rights do NOT include being able to mention potential victims of sexual abuse as a reason for your criticisms. 

 

[VineHeart137]

Fun Fact Friday with Anna.