Josh, Anna and the Ms 16: The sins of our fathers

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, VineHeart137 said:

Fun Fact Friday with Anna.

 

For a second I thought that was going to say '+1 on the way' and I thought, 'Oh fuck no.'

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, VineHeart137 said:

Fun Fact Friday with Anna.

 

oh Anna pimping herself out she's really been burning up those social media miles recently. I think it would be better for her and the M's if she'd stayed silent. 

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

Think about any of the women who may have left this, or any other, cult. Those women are given an incredible amount of credit, they are rightly called brave, they are treated with compassion for the turmoil they have faced. It is recognized that what they did was not easy. 

So why do people feel the need to act like Anna should just get up and leave? It is not an easy thing. It would take an incredible amount of bravery, it takes resources that she likely does not know how to access. I don’t see how anyone can deny that Anna is a victim in this. 

Of course, that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be held accountable for her actions as an adult or that being a victim alleviates her of responsibility for her children. But wasn’t she just a ‘kidult’ when she married Josh? At what point did she go from brainwashed victim to stone cold perpetrator? 

I dont know the answers to this either, I just get annoyed when people pretend it’s so black and white. To me it’s just grey, grey, grey. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, AnnEggBlandHer? said:

Think about any of the women who may have left this, or any other, cult. Those women are given an incredible amount of credit, they are rightly called brave, they are treated with compassion for the turmoil they have faced. It is recognized that what they did was not easy. 

So why do people feel the need to act like Anna should just get up and leave? It is not an easy thing. It would take an incredible amount of bravery, it takes resources that she likely does not know how to access. I don’t see how anyone can deny that Anna is a victim in this. 

Of course, that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be held accountable for her actions as an adult or that being a victim alleviates her of responsibility for her children. But wasn’t she just a ‘kidult’ when she married Josh? At what point did she go from brainwashed victim to stone cold perpetrator? 

I dont know the answers to this either, I just get annoyed when people pretend it’s so black and white. To me it’s just grey, grey, grey. 

well then we can say Josh is a victim of his upbringing and that is why he did what he did we can say Jim Bob were Victim's because they were young and impressionable and told by a dr that they caused their miscarriage which sent them into Fundyland you can find any excuse for anyone if you look hard enough. I will not call Anna a Victim. I don't believe her to be one. 

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, AnnEggBlandHer? said:

But wasn’t she just a ‘kidult’ when she married Josh?

She was. She was an extremely naive, sheltered, and brainwashed teenager when she was told about Josh's indiscretions, and that is how they were described to her - indiscretions. Remember, it wasn't molestation. It was just some mild, inappropriate touching over the clothes. He felt terrible about it, confessed, was sent to do manual labour for Jesus, repented and was cured of his wicked ways. All he was left with was a really killer testimony. (Obviously I'm speaking from their point of view here, not my own.)

It's interesting, most people don't blame Tabitha Paine for marrying a man who was actually charged with rape, and she was a ~30-year-old woman at the time she found out, and still chose to marry him. Maybe that will change when/if she has children with him.

I don't think Anna, with her age and experience at the time, had any realistic chance at all of being able to grasp the magnitude of Josh's actions. The patriarchs told her everything was okay, and she believed them, just as she had been trained to do.

3 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

well then we can say Josh is a victim of his upbringing and that is why he did what he did we can say Jim Bob were Victim's because they were young and impressionable and told by a dr that they caused their miscarriage which sent them into Fundyland you can find any excuse for anyone if you look hard enough. I will not call Anna a Victim. I don't believe her to be one. 

Josh was a victim of his upbringing. Jim Bob and Michelle were victims of a predatory doctor. And Anna was a victim of the cult as well. People seriously need to understand that someone can be a victim and a perpetrator at the same time.

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

5 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I will not call Anna a Victim. I don't believe her to be one. 

Are Anna’s children victims? 

[Ivycoveredtower]

Just now, AnnEggBlandHer? said:

Are Anna’s children victims? 

Anna's children are Victims of having horrible parents if they grow up and learn the truth and still allow their OWN children around josh I will judge them just as I do Josh and Anna to a lesser extent of course because their kids wouldn't have to live with Josh but still and yes I do Judge the J sisters for sticking up for their brother in case you are wondering and don't even get me started on their lawsuit. 

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

Just now, Ivycoveredtower said:

Anna's children are Victims of having horrible parents if they grow up and learn the truth and still allow their OWN children around josh I will judge them just as I do Josh and Anna to a lesser extent of course because their kids wouldn't have to live with Josh but still and yes I do Judge the J sisters for sticking up for their brother in case you are wondering and don't even get me started on their lawsuit. 

So for you the tipping point is when a child victim ‘grows up and learns the truth.’

For me, that’s still too vague. 

And as @singsingsing pointed out, they can be both victim and perpetrator. I just don’t think it’s as simple as going from 100% of one to 100% of the other  

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, AnnEggBlandHer? said:

So for you the tipping point is when a child victim ‘grows up and learns the truth.’

For me, that’s still too vague. 

And as @singsingsing pointed out, they can be both victim and perpetrator. I just don’t think it’s as simple as going from 100% of one to 100% of the other  

 

i think my tipping point was more when you have children of your own. like I said up thread if Anna wanted to ruin her own life that's on her but she chose to have 5 kids with him. the first four okay she may have only had a watered down version of the truth so yes I felt sympathy for her when it all came out. she stayed and she had a 5th child with him. that's when I took a hard line against her. 

as for the Duggar girls I felt bad for them until they went on national TV and tried to drag the cops and the tabloids and then tried to sue. yet still let Josh back in their lives. 

[scribble]

5 hours ago, viii said:

Anna had no options. She literally had ZERO options. She was raised in a very sheltered home, brainwashed into believing herself to be inferior, and had limited education and funds. She had four children to think after, and when the majority of her family was surely encouraging her to forgive her husband and stay, it would have been almost impossible for her to walk away. She would have had no way of supporting her family, and despite the fact that you think it would have been easy and she would have had support, that's simply not the case. Would majority of the world have supported her? Probably, but those people are very, very far away. The people actually IN Anna's world and involved in her life would have withdrawn, and she would have been very alone. That is a hard place to be when you're prepared for it, and when you aren't prepared for it? I don't blame her for staying, because coming from a similar background, I understand that she felt at the time she had no other option but to stay. 

I don't judge Anna for staying - I pity her. Someday, I hope she will get to the point where she has the means and the courage to walk away, not only for herself, but for her children as well. 

I don't buy that at all. Anna definitely had options. She COULD have chosen to leave. Would it have been hard as hell? Absolutely. Would she have to give up the whole idea of what her life was supposed to be? Absolutely.

But others have certainly done it. She is a D-list celebrity and would have found a much safer place to land than most women in her circumstances might.

Whatever her reasons were -- she did have to make a decision to stay. I don't pity her at all for her decisions. I do  have some pity for her because she was raised to be a doormat -- but  the fact she chooses to continue being a doormat, and will likely teacher her daughters to  carry on in that role counterbalance any pity I feel for her. I truly hope her children are better off with their father in their lives... because if it ends up they aren't, she gets some of the blame. She can't say at this point that she doesn't know the person that her husband truly is.

[Grandma D]

On 3/6/2018 at 10:58 PM, VelociRapture said:

I’m not asking you to like her or agree with her. All I’m saying is that her situation was/is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. There’s a lot of unknown factors when it comes to why Anna chose to stay and I’m personally not comfortable judging her because of that.

And this is 100% friendly advice: I’m not really sure what you mean by, “a father like that.” I’d caution you to be very careful moving forward if you’re referring to the molestations scandal though. We have zero evidence Josh was ever a threat to anyone other than his five victims and FJ does not allow speculation regarding other possible victims (or speculation about the identity of the fifth unnamed victim, who has chosen to stay silent this far.) If That is what you were referencing just be careful what you say and how you say it moving forward. If not you can just disregard this.

I would like to comment on this because saying there is no evidence Josh was a threat to anyone else when we know For A fact he molested five young innocent girls is a contradiction to me. I believe this is evidence he is.

[VelociRapture]

47 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Anna's children are Victims of having horrible parents if they grow up and learn the truth and still allow their OWN children around josh I will judge them just as I do Josh and Anna to a lesser extent of course because their kids wouldn't have to live with Josh but still and yes I do Judge the J sisters for sticking up for their brother in case you are wondering and don't even get me started on their lawsuit. 

Jill, Jessa, Jinger, and Joy are true victims when it concerns the molestations and the media frenzy over the scandals. They were betrayed by their brother, they were betrayed by their parents, and they were betrayed by the Church Elders. Pretty much every single adult in the situation failed to protect them and failed to obtain real help for Josh. Yes, they forgave Josh, but how much of a choice did they have when they’re raised to “keep sweet?” Or when they were raised to believe all forgiveness takes is asking God for it? - and how can you not forgive someone when your God has and you truly believe God is all-knowing? Or when you’re a child who honestly believes your parents and Church Elders who tell you that Josh is all better after Jesus Jail?

Personally, I’m extremely uncomfortable judging these four young women for what happened to them and how they reacted to it. Like Josh, they never received real therapy to help them process and heal from the abuse. They trusted the officers who took their statements and had that trust broken when the redacted reports were released and they were outed nationally as sexual assault victims without their consent.* They were all impressionable children when they were assaulted and they still lived with their parents, the very people who refused to protect them. The sisters did not have a real choice other than to allow Josh back into their lives. Their parents made that choice for them by allowing him to return to the family home and then by agreeing to shine  national spotlight on the family via a reality show.

*The media did nothing legally wrong. They requested everything according to the law. But I firmly believe the reports weren’t redacted to the full extent they should have been. I believe there’s an Arkansas state statute that states information that identifies victims must be redacted when documents are released to the public. That was not done properly for the Duggar victims and I do believe they had every right to feel angry about it. The fact anyone was able to identify them based off those reports is disgusting. So while I absolutely think they were reaching on some of the defendants listed, I also don’t see anything wrong with them suing the people directly responsible for the redacting and release of the reports.

TL;DR: Victim blaming is wrong regardless of celebrity status.

[VelociRapture]

26 minutes ago, dsjbeam said:

I would like to comment on this because saying there is no evidence Josh was a threat to anyone else when we know For A fact he molested five young innocent girls is a contradiction to me. I believe this is evidence he is.

I’ll rephrase - We have no direct evidence he harmed anyone other than the five girls . The only other sexually based scandal to come out about Josh at this point involved adults and we don’t even know if he actually cheated or was just looking for an affair. That doesn’t mean there isn’t more there, but I’m not going to speculate on that.

[BobJonesBabe]

It's also a huge difference going into a fundie-cult with an outside world as your context; whereas, if you're born into it, you're usually sheltered and in a bubble with no outside context.

Science says our brains don't fully form until age 25. But a lot of people born into fundie-cults (myself included) may already have multiple kids by that age...heck, even be considered a larger family. 

So it's a vicious cycle for some; but I hate it when those who entered the fundie-world as adults and then semi come out never apologize for the damage they did. 

 

[Calypso]

2 hours ago, VineHeart137 said:

Fun Fact Friday with Anna.

 

I think this is the first Ive heard anout Anna having had a miscarraige. Does anyone know where in the lineup it would have happened?

[marmalade]

It was early, IIRC, between Mack and Mike. 

[socalgurl83]

7 minutes ago, Calypso said:

I think this is the first Ive heard anout Anna having had a miscarraige. Does anyone know where in the lineup it would have happened?

She had a miscarriage a few months after Mackynzie was born, so her second pregnancy.

[singsingsing]

iirc she first talked about her miscarriage after she announced that she was pregnant with Michael, and said the baby would've been due in February 2011. Mackynzie was born in October 2009 and Michael was born in June 2011.

[Ivycoveredtower]

30 minutes ago, Calypso said:

I think this is the first Ive heard anout Anna having had a miscarraige. Does anyone know where in the lineup it would have happened?

between Mack and Mike  iirc she talked about it briefly once when she went to minister with her father in some  prisons. 

[raised in rebellion]

My criticisms are towards those who coddle enablers of abuse. If you don't do that, I don't see how you can be offended. 

I've no idea if he raped, or if he just molested his siblings. Neither do you. I'd not let him near anyone I care for. You do you. You forgive what you will. I wouldn't let Anna babysit. Especially when her husband is in town.

Internet is forever.

I stand by my words. Your warnings define you.

10 hours ago, viii said:

Anna had no options. She literally had ZERO options. She was raised in a very sheltered home, brainwashed into believing herself to be inferior, and had limited education and funds. She had four children to think after, and when the majority of her family was surely encouraging her to forgive her husband and stay, it would have been almost impossible for her to walk away. She would have had no way of supporting her family, and despite the fact that you think it would have been easy and she would have had support, that's simply not the case. Would majority of the world have supported her? Probably, but those people are very, very far away. The people actually IN Anna's world and involved in her life would have withdrawn, and she would have been very alone. That is a hard place to be when you're prepared for it, and when you aren't prepared for it? I don't blame her for staying, because coming from a similar background, I understand that she felt at the time she had no other option but to stay. 

I don't judge Anna for staying - I pity her. Someday, I hope she will get to the point where she has the means and the courage to walk away, not only for herself, but for her children as well. 

Her brother offered to take care of her and her children, per People Magazine. Unless you have a better source, you've nothing valid to add.

[JillRodsEyeliner]

On 3/3/2018 at 12:02 AM, Snarkylark said:

Gosh, those pictures of Anna’s adorable, chunky youngest two really shows how gaunt the Rod kids are. So sad. 

Jill even said with baby number whatever, it would be one less chicken leg. Looks like daddy Rod has never skipped a meal.

[Chewing Gum]

Funny how Anna uses this fast forward video now. Someone has been taught by Jessa!

[DillyDally]

I think it's a bit sad that she seeks validation by boasting that 50% of the Duggar grandkids are her making. She won't be able to hold up those statistics much longer. 

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

4 hours ago, raised in rebellion said:

Her brother offered to take care of her and her children, per People Magazine. Unless you have a better source, you've nothing valid to add.

Show me proof that he sincerely offered a long-term plan that actually kept Anna and her children safe and together while the Duggars poured thousands of dollars into a custody battle. Show me where he said he would take them in and cover their expenses while Anna went to school so she was actually employable. 

Its been said like 15 times on this thread: we don’t know what he said. He may have made an offhand comment to a magazine in anger. He may never have actually offered these things to Anna. Even if he did, the Duggars are powerful people and I’d be scared to trust that my nobody brother could protect me against them if I crossed them, too. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

7 hours ago, raised in rebellion said:

I've no idea if he raped, or if he just molested his siblings

Remember that when you play with this sort of baseless allegations you don't just sling mud to the perpetrator, you also hurt the victims.

You are toeing the line around the rules, not a good idea.

You don't need to make up theoretical crimes to substantiate that Joshley is a horrible person. What we know as a fact is more than enough.