Seewalds 30: No new baby, but with more recipe thread-drift

[tabitha2]

No. He would not have had a reason to divorce her because of Edward And it’s correct he would not have wanted any question of Edwards Legitimacy to the throne either. But he wasn't a man to stay faithful or particularly ensnared either for very long. It was almost unheard of for any King to be faithful.  likely she would have been a model submissive obedient  Queen who bore children and prayed while Henry had his mistresses.  If she dared question he would instantly remind he of her place.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I've always fantasized about bringing ancient historical men, like Henry VIII into modern times, to show them how history has regarded their legacy and how their murderous sprees of wives for failure to produce a male heir was really their own faults, and just a general.  You know what kind of asshole you were? Yeah history hates you. Just because their was little to no justice for these people I would love for them to know what became of them.

[singsingsing]

49 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Regarding the Princes, I kind of side with Phillipa Gregory on this one, I never trusted Margaret Beaufort. She would stop at nothing to get Henry to the throne. And how easy it would be to cast doubt on Richard. .....But that doesn't mean I would dismiss Richard completely. 

Except that she was originally just trying to get Henry back to England and restore his original rights and safety. It was only after she realized that there was absolutely no way that was ever going to happen, and that there was now a real possibility of him becoming king (which there really hadn't been before), that she started scheming to make him king. At that point (which I'd personally put at after the princes were already assumed to be dead), the stakes became much higher for Henry: it was return to England and be crowned king, or be killed. Before that, the hope was that he could return to England, possibly marry one of Edward IV's daughters (not Elizabeth of York) and be restored to his earldom without fear of prosecution or death.

Don't get me wrong, Margaret Beaufort was an extremely powerful, ambitious, and intelligent woman, and there is a case to be made (not a particularly strong one, but that's my personal view) for her having something to do with that. But never, ever trust Philippa Gregory on anything.  

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

No. He would not have had a reason to divorce her because of Edward And it’s correct he would not have wanted any question of Edwards Legitimacy to the throne either. But he wasn't a man to stay faithful or particularly ensnared either for very long. It was almost unheard of for any King to be faithful.  likely she would have been a model submissive obedient  Queen who bore children and prayed while Henry had his mistresses.  If she dared question he would instantly remind he of her place.

Jane would have done like Katherine did and what Anne was not able to do..... isn't it something like "close your eyes like your betters" .

[justoneoftwo]

I could be wrong but my understanding was that children were considered legitimate if their parents believed themselves to be married at the time of their conception, even if it turned out later not to be true.  That why there were separate laws declaring Mary and Elizabeth to be bastards, even after the marriages were annulled.  So he could have gotten rid of Jane (assuming historians are right and she couldn't have more children by him because of whatever genetic issue there was) and still kept Edward.  

I'm not sure he would have though.  He staid with Catherine for a long time, with only Mary.  So he may have been able to stay with her, even if not faithfully (which no one would have expected anyway).

[libgirl2]

I think when Henry was out there chasing wives, he wasn't only chasing sons, he was chasing an ideal of a royal marriage. Henry was not known to have as many mistresses as most kings, he liked to marry them. 

[purplepeony]

Is it weird that this thread got me thinking about which Duggar daughters/ in laws  are like which wife if Henry viii. My view:

Katherine of Aragon: Anna, first wife, put up with a lot but still loves him 

Anne Boleyn: Jessa, both a bit haughty and hold more power ( or maybe just express their views more) than normally typical for a woman in the culture.

Jane Seymour- Jill, provided a son, husband is a bit irrational, not as loud and confident 

Anne of Cleves (hard this one) maybe Jinger due to Jeremy being Italian and the fact Anne was foreign. Also maybe Jinger is playing the long game and will become fundy lite and more free just like Anne gained some freedom by becoming Henry’s ‘sister’

Katherine Howard- Kendra- young and giggly, comes from a powerful family

Katherine Parr- Jana- has to do the looking after and taking care of people- doesn’t get to follow her heart.

clearly there are many differences between the wives and the Duggar but these seemed most similar, what do people think?

[freedom_for_all]

19 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Juana is my current historical person of interest. A really interesting woman who got completely screwed over by her husband and father, and ugh, I just want to write a historical fan fiction where she kills everyone and takes over Europe, hahahahaha.

The more I read about Juana the sadder I get. She was treated so terribly by her father and son. It was despicable. 

[meee]

This thread drift is so interesting! 

[freedom_for_all]

19 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Juana is my current historical person of interest. A really interesting woman who got completely screwed over by her husband and father, and ugh, I just want to write a historical fan fiction where she kills everyone and takes over Europe, hahahahaha.

The more I read about Juana the sadder I get. She was treated so terribly by her father and son. It was despicable. 

 

My Princes in the Tower theory is they died under natural causes, possibly by neglect or illness. I like to think Elizabeth Woodville knew that and didn't die wondering what happened to her sons. Yes, it is convenient for them to die of natural causes but people did including healthy kids. Maybe Richard III kept them in less than ideal conditions which is how they got sick and therefore he still was complicit in their death. I don't know, but it is fun to speculate. 

 

Re: not knowing about people's personality back then. There is a lot left to dig up and analyze. There isn't a complete paper trail but many people wrote letters that give very interesting windows into their lives. When analyzed and not taken at face value some interesting things come up.

[viii]

Henry would have never divorced Jane, even if she had never born him another child. Giving him a son secured her, and she would have been Queen until his or her death. 

Of course, that doesn't mean that he'd have stayed faithful to her in the slightest, but that's a whole nother subject matter. 

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who finds this era so fascinating. It's why I don't understand why some authors take such liberties and stray so far from the truth. The truth was fascinating enough as it was! There's literally no need to embellish anything, you have all the mystery, scandal and intrigue that you want! (I say this as I add one slight embellishment to my own novel, whoops). 

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, meee said:

This thread drift is so interesting! 

It really is. I am so getting my geek on talking about this! 

I always felt sorry for Juana.

[Carm_88]

It's interesting to think that today we follow the diaries and letters of historical figures, hundreds of years from now will historians use social media? Will the future descendants of FJ, scroll through the thread drift? 

[tabitha2]

His Rep was almost infamous In Europe Christina of Denmark had this to say about the matter when Harry was bride hunting after Jane’s  Death: "If I had two heads, I would happily put one at the disposal of the King of England". Henry also really wanted Mary of Hungary and she was did not want anything to do with him or his baby mama drama. He kept on pursuing a marriage till one of his advisors basically said you need to drop it dude and move on("fyxe his most noble stomacke in some such other place.")

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

His Rep was almost infamous In Europe Christina of Denmark had this to say about the matter when Harry was bride hunting after Jane’s  Death: "If I had two heads, I would happily put one at the disposal of the King of England". Henry also really wanted Mary of Hungary and she was did not want anything to do with him or his baby mama drama. He kept on pursuing a marriage till one of his advisors basically said you need to drop it dude and move on("fyxe his most noble stomacke in some such other place.")

Isn't that how he got "stuck" with Anne of Cleves. No one else wanted him.  

[Mela99]

I am beyond delighted that the reason for this thread being hot is discussion of the monarchy. Carry on, my beloveds !

[VelociRapture]

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Isn't that how he got "stuck" with Anne of Cleves. No one else wanted him.  

Partly. His advisors (namely Cromwell) were also pushing an alliance with a Protestant kingdom or nation due to Henry’s split with the Catholic Church. Marriage to Anne of Cleves, who came from a Protestant family and area, was seen as a way to strengthen Henry’s position in Europe and would have helped secure some allies if the Pope had ordered Catholic nations (like France and Spain) to invade England. 

It was also a way to strengthen the position of Protestants in England as well. As far as I know,  despite breaking with Rome Henry never really become a Protestant - he appears to have clung to Catholic traditions instead and I don’t think he was a fan of his people converting to forms of Protestantism either. I think that (and Elizabeth I’s influence) is part of the reason why the Anglican Church can be such a cross between Catholic and Protestant in some ways.

[viii]

Yes, Henry was a Catholic at heart through and through. He only broke away and became a Protestant so he could marry Anne Boleyn. However, none of his beliefs or traditions changed. 

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Partly. His advisors (namely Cromwell) were also pushing an alliance with a Protestant kingdom or nation due to Henry’s split with the Catholic Church. Marriage to Anne of Cleves, who came from a Protestant family and area, was seen as a way to strengthen Henry’s position in Europe and would have helped secure some allies if the Pope had ordered Catholic nations (like France and Spain) to invade England. 

It was also a way to strengthen the position of Protestants in England as well. As far as I know,  despite breaking with Rome Henry never really become a Protestant - he appears to have clung to Catholic traditions instead and I don’t think he was a fan of his people converting to forms of Protestantism either. I think that (and Elizabeth I’s influence) is part of the reason why the Anglican Church can be such a cross between Catholic and Protestant in some ways.

For all intents and purposes he did stay Catholic, just changed things to suit himself (divorce and plunder the riches of the church). 

I know Cromwell had his hand in all of it (and lost his head), but I do think Henry didn't exactly have his choice of Protestant women of nobility. 

[mango_fandango]

I was scrolling through this drift and misread Juana and thought “wait! She hasn’t had a kid!” then I re-read. D’oh.

I’ve never heard of this person. Must go and google.

[libgirl2]

Didn't the widower Henry VII consider Juana for marriage after her husband died? I could be totally wrong on this. 

[tabitha2]

Ah Yes. Lady Jana of Duggarland hath not a royal Fundy Prince That King Jim the copulator has approved of. Her noble(ish) sisters have been wedded, bedded and bred to small(minded) Lordlings  But Mayhaps a swain from the kingdom of the Batesei will come hither and sweep her away . 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

45 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

For all intents and purposes he did stay Catholic, just changed things to suit himself (divorce and plunder the riches of the church). 

I know Cromwell had his hand in all of it (and lost his head), but I do think Henry didn't exactly have his choice of Protestant women of nobility. 

Yes. Basically Henry's Church of England with Catholic with all the Roman removed and Henry's name  replaced there.

 

Henry was never a Protestant. Nor for that reason of Anne Boleyn even though she had Reformist leanings.

12 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Didn't the widower Henry VII consider Juana for marriage after her husband died? I could be totally wrong on this. 

Yes he did. Ferdinand didn't like that idea for some reason....cough power..cough.

[libgirl2]

Reading about Don Carlos of Spain and Carlos II of Spain, the delightful gentleman who's painting we saw. all that interbreeding! Madness, deformities..... yow! 

[singsingsing]

31 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Didn't the widower Henry VII consider Juana for marriage after her husband died? I could be totally wrong on this. 

Yes, he did. It seems like he had quite the crush on her, actually. He was one of the 'outside observers' I mentioned who thought she seemed perfectly sane when he met her. Naturally her father wouldn't let her marry Henry and risk England usurping his power in Castile.