Seewalds 30: No new baby, but with more recipe thread-drift

[singsingsing]

26 minutes ago, CharlieInCharge said:

I love you, @singsingsing, but how many times are you going to start the Princes in the Tower discussion? I get it, you’re crazed, but I think it’s time (over 500 years isn’t enough for you?!) to let it go. I’m worried about you. Hugs. 

 

PS - I’m totally down to start a history group or thread, but it needs to come with a ban on the Princes. This would only apply to Sing, but it would keep the crazy down  

I'm down for a ban on the Princes. Sometimes you have to go cold turkey. Zero tolerance. Complete abstention. You know what I mean? I'm trying to work my way up to being able to be in the same room as people discussing the Princes in the Tower without having to join in myself. It's going to be a long road, but it will be worth it in the end. For everyone.

(HAVE I EVER MENTIONED THAT UNSOLVABLE MYSTERIES DRIVE ME CRAZY???)

31 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

People have mentioned Henry 8 having ED with Anne Boleyn, is that known?  I thought only Anne of Cleves seemed to be facing that issue (and maybe those after her?  Why did Catherine Parr never have kids with him?).

Honestly, I'm not sure. He (assuming she wasn't cheating on him) did manage to get her pregnant at least twice in the space of, what? 3 years? But he was in his 40s by that point and I'm pretty sure was already fairly overweight, so... 

[justoneoftwo]

She got to marry into the Spanish family because her father was foreign born so she had an exception.  Without it the royal family would have had to approve it, and there would have been issues (even though they were happy about the match)

[Seahorse Wrangler]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

The Hapsburgs were Catholic. Why would the Windsors have seen them as potential marriage partners anyway since they are forbidden from marrying Catholics? 

I thought this was the major reason why the Hapsburgs were inbred; they could only marry other Catholic royalty and there weren't many to choose from. So Spanish Hapsburgs married Austrian Hapsburgs and vice versa, with maybe a Bourbon-Parma thrown in every once in a while to lighten the inbred load.

One of Victoria's grand-daughters, Alix of Hesse married Tsar Nicholas and converted to Orthodox Catholicism.Some of those far down the line of succession did marry into Catholic royal families .

[tabitha2]

 

42 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

She got to marry into the Spanish family because her father was foreign born so she had an exception.  Without it the royal family would have had to approve it, and there would have been issues (even though they were happy about the match)

 

It was the Grooms mother Queen María Christina who had real problems with the marriage actually: she Considered Princess Victoria Eugenie’s  fathers family of Minor German nobles not  up to par, Being a Habsburg-Lorraine she wanted her son to carry on the glorious inbreeding tradition and marry within the family and she was rightly concerned about Hemophilia being brought in the family from the girl. Which of course is exactly what happened. 

 

 

 

 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

55 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

People have mentioned Henry 8 having ED with Anne Boleyn, is that known?  I thought only Anne of Cleves seemed to be facing that issue (and maybe those after her?  Why did Catherine Parr never have kids with him?).  

As for the Princes, I don't know who could have killed them and not been outed by someone.   

Anne allegedly told Jane Boleyn that H8 had neither the skill or vigour with a woman. This was repeated at George Boleyn's trial. Anne was pregnant  at least 3 times. Elizabeth, a miscarriage sometime in the summer of 1534 and a miscarriage in Jan 1536.

6 months between marriage and pregnancy for Jane S. About average even for now.

Henry claimed he'd never had sex with AoC. However he was known for his loud coupling with Kathryn Howard which came to naught.

I think by the time it came to Katherine Parr, he just didn't really bother. He was too ill. I think they shared a bed for appearences sake, like he did with KoA when it was obvious she wouldn't be pregnant again.

[HermioneSparrow]

19 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

She got to marry into the Spanish family because her father was foreign born so she had an exception.  Without it the royal family would have had to approve it, and there would have been issues (even though they were happy about the match)

Actually NO, Alfonso XIII went to England to find a wife, his mother (a Hapsburg) wanted him to marry another Hapsburg but he wasn't having it. Also, at the time the English Princesses were among the most beautiful and eligible in Europe and he was interested in getting married to Princess Patricia of Connaught, daughter of Prince Arthur the Duke of Connaught (Queen Victoria's son) and the whole family wanted that match but at his welcoming dinner, Patsy (who was already in love with Sir Alexander Ramsay) ignored Alfonso. Alfonso wasn't good looking and none of the girls that were royal highnesses were interested in him until he saw across the table a beautiful blond girl... Princess Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg. He became interested in her and she (who was a mere Serene Highness and the lowest rank of her cousins) was flattered that a King was interested in her. Edward VII wanted good marriages for his nieces so he was more than happy to approve the marriage.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

People have mentioned Henry 8 having ED with Anne Boleyn, is that known?  I thought only Anne of Cleves seemed to be facing that issue (and maybe those after her?  Why did Catherine Parr never have kids with him?).  

As for the Princes, I don't know who could have killed them and not been outed by someone.   

I think by the time he got to Catherine Parr (and probably Howard too), he was too obese to do very much. 

[Gillyweed]

Wasn't Marie Aintoinette one of 16 or 17 children? I remember hearing that when I was touring a palace in Austria. I think she was the favorite because she was born on her mother's birthday or something. 

[Carm_88]

Princes in the Tower: It's hard to say that Richard III didn't do it or have someone do it. However, that was the world that they lived in. Children died and although it was sad, it was common. Power was also everything! So, someone wanted power and they didn't want a boy king on the throne. 

Habsburgs: Ermmm. Charles was a real fox!  Poor guy, they should have stopped inbreeding at some point but they didn't! They are very interesting though. A bit of madness for sure! 

Henry VIII: Could he get it up? Uh I would say that chronic pain and obesity probably had a lot to do with that. I wouldn't be shocked if he had difficulties in his later years. 

Jane Boleyn: Interesting character of history. I don't think she was evil. Philippa Gregory thinks she is but I am not shocked by that. Haven't really read that much on her, something to do in the future. 

Queen Victoria's Grandchildren: Well they had to marry someone! Victoria struggled with letting her daughters go, they married lesser princes for the most part and then their children struggled with other royalty. Queen Victoria did not want Alix or her sister Elisabeth to marry Russians. She was very against it. She didn't like Russia. So...it's not like she approved of either. Just dealt with it. 

[mango_fandango]

Oh my god my knowledge of history is shite. And I’m a Brit. I was crap at history at school, it was an interesting subject but I just couldn’t do the exams.

[VelociRapture]

41 minutes ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

Anne allegedly told Jane Boleyn that H8 had neither the skill or vigour with a woman. This was repeated at George Boleyn's trial. Anne was pregnant  at least 3 times. Elizabeth, a miscarriage sometime in the summer of 1534 and a miscarriage in Jan 1536.

6 months between marriage and pregnancy for Jane S. About average even for now.

Henry claimed he'd never had sex with AoC. However he was known for his loud coupling with Kathryn Howard which came to naught.

I think by the time it came to Katherine Parr, he just didn't really bother. He was too ill. I think they shared a bed for appearences sake, like he did with KoA when it was obvious she wouldn't be pregnant again.

Edward VI wasn’t born until October 1537. His parents married in late May 1536, just a few weeks after Anne Boleyn was executed (super classy.) That puts his date of conception sometime in January, about eight months after the wedding. Still well within the normal range by today’s standards, but those extra two months must have been kind of terrible for someone married to a guy who was known for casting aside or killing wives that didn’t provide male heirs. 

[nausicaa]

55 minutes ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

One of Victoria's grand-daughters, Alix of Hesse married Tsar Nicholas and converted to Orthodox Catholicism.Some of those far down the line of succession did marry into Catholic royal families .

True, I forgot about Alix. But she converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church, which doesn't seem to have the same weighted history that Catholicism does in regards to the British monarchy, so I wonder if that made it more acceptable at the time.

[libgirl2]

36 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Princes in the Tower: It's hard to say that Richard III didn't do it or have someone do it. However, that was the world that they lived in. Children died and although it was sad, it was common. Power was also everything! So, someone wanted power and they didn't want a boy king on the throne. 

Habsburgs: Ermmm. Charles was a real fox!  Poor guy, they should have stopped inbreeding at some point but they didn't! They are very interesting though. A bit of madness for sure! 

Henry VIII: Could he get it up? Uh I would say that chronic pain and obesity probably had a lot to do with that. I wouldn't be shocked if he had difficulties in his later years. 

Jane Boleyn: Interesting character of history. I don't think she was evil. Philippa Gregory thinks she is but I am not shocked by that. Haven't really read that much on her, something to do in the future. 

Queen Victoria's Grandchildren: Well they had to marry someone! Victoria struggled with letting her daughters go, they married lesser princes for the most part and then their children struggled with other royalty. Queen Victoria did not want Alix or her sister Elisabeth to marry Russians. She was very against it. She didn't like Russia. So...it's not like she approved of either. Just dealt with it. 

Regarding the Princes, I kind of side with Phillipa Gregory on this one, I never trusted Margaret Beaufort. She would stop at nothing to get Henry to the throne. And how easy it would be to cast doubt on Richard. .....But that doesn't mean I would dismiss Richard completely. 

[viii]

I was going to say, Jane Seymour didn't get pregnant until 1537, and the pressure of being married for 7-8 months without a sign of pregnancy must have been very nerve-wrecking for her! 

[tabitha2]

And then 9 more months to wonder that the child you were carrying wasn't a just useless daughter anyway.  Or if you were going to die giving birth.

[viii]

And then to give birth to a son... and survive it! (For two weeks anyway) 

 

[Carm_88]

2 minutes ago, viii said:

And then to give birth to a son... and survive it! (For two weeks anyway) 

 

Jane Seymour really did go out on top of her game. I wonder how different history would have been if she had lived. 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

14 minutes ago, viii said:

I was going to say, Jane Seymour didn't get pregnant until 1537, and the pressure of being married for 7-8 months without a sign of pregnancy must have been very nerve-wrecking for her! 

Especially as weeks after the wedding Henry was talking about some of the other, prettier ladies at court.

2 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Jane Seymour really did go out on top of her game. I wonder how different history would have been if she had lived. 

Baby after baby until she or Henry died.

 

I think she'd be a gentle hand behind the throne. She had been warned about meddling in politics so she's use her words and actions more carefully than her predecessors. Had she lived I can't see the two Seymour brothers acting in such a scramble for power following Henry's death.

[Blu'sClues]

This thread is hot again ha ha...i thought she'd announced pregnancy.

[justoneoftwo]

4 minutes ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

Especially as weeks after the wedding Henry was talking about some of the other, prettier ladies at court.

Baby after baby until she or Henry died.

 

I think she'd be a gentle hand behind the throne. She had been warned about meddling in politics so she's use her words and actions more carefully than her predecessors. Had she lived I can't see the two Seymour brothers acting in such a scramble for power following Henry's death.

There is a theory that Henry had a genetic mutation that made multiple children from one women almost impossible (and made it a miracle that Mary lived at all).  If thats true she wouldn't have been able to keep another child.  Would he have been willing to kill her after her son was born alive?  How much would that have protected her?

[tabitha2]

Henry being Henry he would most likely tired if her soon. He was only into her because he needed a son , AB just wasn't cutting  and he saw a young fertile meek unmarried girl that looked promising. Certainly Jane had no particular charm or beauty or vivaciousness to keep him infatuated after the excitement of Edward would abate.  Most likely he would have used her as brood mare for sons  till she wore out and died and ignored her otherwise while he fucked his mistresses. 

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

Henry being Henry he would most likely tired if her soon. He was only into her because he needed a son , AB just wasn't cutting  and he saw a young fertile meek unmarried girl that looked promising. Certainly Jane had no particular charm or beauty or vivaciousness to keep him infatuated after the excitement of Edward would abate.  Most likely he would have used her as brood mare for sons  till she wore out and died and ignored her otherwise while he fucked his mistresses. 

I think Henry sought out Jane because she was Anne's opposite. I think he tired of the "fire and passion" and wanted more of a peaceful life and wife as he had with Katherine. Anne stirred his jealousy and his anger, Jane calmed him down. 

I think if Jane would have lived and Edward lived as he did, he would never have divorced her, even if she couldn't produce another child. In no way would he jeopardize the legitimacy of Edward. 

After Jane died, Henry was heartbroken. She was the wife he was buried next to. 

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

I think Jane was safe while Edward lived. She died just when she had become secure. I don’t know if Henry’s son obsession meant that he would remain devoted to her but he wouldn’t have got rid of her. Remember there was no actual “divorce” - to divorce Jane he would have had to annul their marriage rendering Edward illegitimate. So he would never have done that and executing an actual “wife” would have been somewhat distasteful- he annulled his marriages to both AB and Katherine Howard (poor girl) before having them executed.

The son obsession continued with royalty though. People have mentioned Alex of Hesse - 4 healthy girls greeted with less and less enthusiasm until Alexei finally came along. 

45 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I never trusted Margaret Beaufort. She would stop at nothing to get Henry to the throne. 

Agree - she was quite a formidable woman.

She was 13 when she gave birth to Henry. So we are neatly back to the topic of modern fundies by way of the teen bride/mum!

 

[Jellybean]

And poor Alexei. I read Nicholas & Alexandra, which tells the story of the family, a few years ago and enjoyed it very much. It filled in a lot of the gaps left from covering 20th century Russia at school. 

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, Snarkangel Gabriel said:

I think Jane was safe while Edward lived. She died just when she had become secure. I don’t know if Henry’s son obsession meant that he would remain devoted to her but he wouldn’t have got rid of her. Remember there was no actual “divorce” - to divorce Jane he would have had to annul their marriage rendering Edward illegitimate. So he would never have done that and executing an actual “wife” would have been somewhat distasteful- he annulled his marriages to both AB and Katherine Howard (poor girl) before having them executed.

The son obsession continued with royalty though. People have mentioned Alex of Hesse - 4 healthy girls greeted with less and less enthusiasm until Alexei finally came along. 

Agree - she was quite a formidable woman.

She was 13 when she gave birth to Henry. So we are neatly back to the topic of modern fundies by way of the teen bride/mum!

 

I think I remember the resulting birth (her being so young) rendered her incapable of having more children.