Boyer Sisters Part 6: Two Left Limping Along

[EowynW]

5 hours ago, singsingsing said:

There is absolutely NOTHING selfish about not wanting children. Selfishness only comes into it when the children already exist. It's tragic to me how many women are made to feel selfish about not wanting children. How it could possibly be selfish to decide not to procreate is beyond me. Having children is not a requirement, a rule, or a law. I think choosing to not have children when you know that you really don't want them is the opposite of selfish.

Thank you. I am still slightly distressed about what kind of awful woman I must be, to not be interested in pregnancy, babies, designing nurseries, motherhood or any of that. It's shaken me a bit. 

[ladyamylynn]

2 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Jessica: Hippocrates is calling - he wants his medical theories back.

 

[Palimpsest]

21 hours ago, Jhamishwat said:

Ah goodness, now we have more pseudoscience BS in today's IG story, about certain organs holding different emotions. Like... I'm sorry Jessica, but you're not making a strong case for these oils working, if those emotions are still so prevalent in your life. 

We even have a thread title mentioning those bodily humors.

I was vaguely intrigued by Charlotte's accusation that we have pages and pages of "lies" and attempts to "naw" at their self esteem about them here so I went back and checked. 

I'm going to make it easy for any new members interested in the sisters:  They first made their appearance on FJ here:

 

(Not sure why that pic of Gabe showed up in the link.  He doesn't come in until a year later.)

I doff my hat to @SolomonFundy who showed enormous foresight back in 2015 with this post.  Do you have second sight or something?

Quote

I dig the Boyer Sisters. They are delightfully self-absorbed, sew beautifully, and have Wacky Vintage-themed Hijinks. I love how they unapologetically sing songs like "Rum and Coca-Cola" (which features lyrics about a mother and daughter team of prostitutes in Trinidad), yet post preachy "Q&A" videos about their purity rings and daddy fixations.

All joking aside, it's impressive to me that they've managed to effectively brand themselves and have a demi-successful singing career in their cloistered circle. Currently, they enjoy their public image and popularity. I hope they savor it. They are all still frantically dusting their Hope Chests while praying for their future Headships from the safety of their parent's house. But, one day, a prospective Headship is going to come riding in on a white horse and break up the band by marrying one of them. I follow the Boyer Sisters in part to watch the eventual melt-down that will follow this betrothal.

 

Interest in the Boyers dwindled out within 4 pages - but a year later it was reinvigorated with the news of Brigid's impending wedding and Jessica's melodramatic revealing of her broken heart. 

Yes, we do have "pages" on the Boyer threads (all 3) but they are quite repetitive about praising the Boyer Sisters and wanting them to break out of their shells.  Lots of snark, but not mean-spirited snark at all.

 The threads are full of our usual thread drift into working women in WWII, DPIAT, history, novels, sewing, cooking, and so on.  We've spent a lot of time discussing EOs and MLMs recently - but that was more concern about the Boyer Sisters getting into financial trouble with their business.  And our distaste for pyramid schemes, of which YL is one.

I've also sometimes wondered whether Jessica and Charlotte post outrageous stuff on Instagram or their blog because we aren't giving them enough attention.  I think they may miss us. 

ETA: Is something  fucky with the spacing today.  Either mine of FJs.  I hope I fixed it.

 

[formergothardite]

Quote

No joke. Somehow we found ourselves ranked among the other popular Christian influences of the time on this website, and couldn’t believe what we read.

This is a wee bit of stretching the truth. I didn't really start following them until the Brigid marriage. I don't think anyone views them as a top popular Christian influence. I rank them around the same level as Lady Lydia when it comes to popular Christian influences. Lady Lydia might actually have more followers. 

Who is Kalin Craig and what did we say about her? She commented that we talked about her. 

[Palimpsest]

17 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Who is Kalin Craig and what did we say about her? She commented that we talked about her. 

I have no idea.  Perhaps not her real name.  I just did an all content search here for "Kalin" and this is the first time her name appears.  Our search function is pretty reliable.  She may have been mentioned on yuku, I suppose.  I find yuku impossible to search and it is ancient history anyway.

Mind you, this has happened before too.  People want to claim their "Persecuted by FJ" button and we have literally no idea who they are!

[browngrl]

18 hours ago, EowynW said:

Thank you. I am still slightly distressed about what kind of awful woman I must be, to not be interested in pregnancy, babies, designing nurseries, motherhood or any of that. It's shaken me a bit. 

Childless by choice here, so I know the kind of pressure society can put on women to have children but I firmly believe this is not a selfish choice. I think it just means you know who you are. Selfish is having children and then hating it. The children can tell and no one deserves that. 

[Jellybean]

@EowynW there are more ways to ‘bless the next generation’ of children than by having your own - demonstrating a strong and loving marriage, being interested in things and sharing the results of your knowledge and education, providing an encouraging and safe space where children (of friends and/or relatives) can be themselves and explore their feelings and thoughts about the world around them. 

I totally agree with @browngrl that it’s not selfish to recognise that you don’t want children, whether that’s just now, or forever. Keep talking to your husband and don’t feel ashamed of being anything other than you. You’re special and remarkable just as you are, and you will continue to be special and remarkable as you learn and grow and change. 

[Georgiana]

20 hours ago, EowynW said:

Thank you. I am still slightly distressed about what kind of awful woman I must be, to not be interested in pregnancy, babies, designing nurseries, motherhood or any of that. It's shaken me a bit. 

I actually wish I had more child-free female friends.  I think it is such an incredible advantage to have people in your life that DON'T have children of their own.  First, because I think parents can get stuck in feedback loops with other parents, and having non-parent friends helps to pull them out and keep them grounded.  Second, because I think that parents too often feel pressure to make their children their identity, which ultimately is not healthy.  Having non-parent friends really helps parents remember to take a break from being a parent every now and again and retain their own adult identity, which is a great example to kids and healthier for everyone

And possibly the most important is that some kids will grow up to be childfree.  And I think it's important for ALL kids to see that there are more options than growing up and having kids.  That you can live a great life in any way you want.  I don't have kids (yet, hopefully), but if I did, I would want to make sure that they see positive examples of people without kids just in case that's their best life too.  

Plus, being childfree doesn't mean you don't value children...it just means it's not for you.  Sometimes when people get on me for not making kids a priority, I call out to them how much more time and resources I have to invest in my niece and my friends' kids because I don't have kids of my own to eat that up.  

Childfree people are uniquely valuable!  You are an incredible addition to the life of anyone lucky enough to have you in it!

[refugee]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

This is a wee bit of stretching the truth. I didn't really start following them until the Brigid marriage. I don't think anyone views them as a top popular Christian influence. I rank them around the same level as Lady Lydia when it comes to popular Christian influences. Lady Lydia might actually have more followers. 

Who is Kalin Craig and what did we say about her? She commented that we talked about her. 

I’ve been thinking about this “top popular” thing. I wonder if they get the impression because they’re on the first page of threads? They might not realize that it just makes them a “recent” topic of discussion, not necessarily a measure of their popularity or importance.

I mainly read the thread because I knew the family a long time ago, not because they have any significance or influence. As they do not, anyhow, despite all the pretentious grandeur of the patriarchy movement they are trapped in.

[Georgiana]

I will fully admit to hate-following people, but the Boyers actually aren't one of them.  I genuinely enjoy  @Gabe's posts here.  I actually really admire Brigid and her patterns.  I wish I had skills like that, she's crazy talented!  I totally admire their desire to keep their baby off the internet.  I wish more people we follow here would follow their lead, frankly.  And neither Gabe nor Brigid come off as overly obnoxious.  I would say that I follow them out of genuine interest and desire for good things in their lives.  I'm happy for them more often than I feel negatively towards them.

Now Jessica and Charlotte are overly obnoxious in how they portray themselves online, so there's always going to be push-back for that and it would serve them well to take criticism on why they come off that way, because I am sure that is not how they want to be perceived.  But other than when their attitude rankles me, I mostly just feel bad for them.  It's this weird thing where they are portraying this somewhat sad-looking life that they don't seem to be thrilled by, but they are doing so in a way that is oddly pompous and superior (again, this is probably not their intent, but it is how it comes off).  Maybe they're really happy in their lives (I hope they are!), but that's not the message they're probably unintentionally conveying to others with their posts.  Maybe it's just really that they aren't into blogging/their internet following anymore, which is totally cool, but they would be better served to just call it off rather than continue to post things that come off very unenthusiastic and lethargic.  It's like the advice my dad always gave me: "If you're going to do something, do it well or not at all".   There's no shame in backing out, there's no shame in cutting down posts in favor of other interests, but no one admires things that are half-assed.  People are drawn to passionate people.  So if you're not passionate about what you're doing anymore, change it up!

It's fine if life takes you in a new direction.  Embrace it.  But this shell of an old life thing they're doing is not reflecting well on them.  And instead of attacking their critics with ad hominem arguments (which, Jessica, is the lowest form of argument and is considered to be a form of concession in educated debate), they would be better served to consider whether the criticisms have merit and address them directly.  This will also make them seem admirable and mature, whereas this response makes them look petty and immature.  

I actually put a good deal of thought into an attempt to make this post constructive in case it is read.  I hope my comments are taken with good faith, as they were meant to be helpful.  Really.

P.S. Even in my  posts on here where I am complaining about my life, I think I still come off happier and more passionate about the life I lead than the Boyers do in their posts on things they ostensibly enjoy.  That's something to consider and largely my point.  I shouldn't be able to sell my complaints more passionately than they sell their actual passions. 

[catlady]

Well put, @Georgiana.  

i readily admit to snarking on the Boyer ladies here and there, but like many others here it's limited to when they do something foolish.  i also admire Brigid and @Gabe for having found a place for themselves.  they both have voiced opinions with which i heavily disagree, but overall they have settled into a life in which they seem genuinely content.  and like Georgiana, i like that they are keeping their son off social media.  

but overall, i worry about the well-being of J&C.  Gabe said not long ago that our interpretations of them are about 80% wrong.  if J&C are reading our "lies" here, then they also know what Gabe said; and yet, they have done nothing to refute that.  granted, they have no obligation to do so, but why on earth haven't they figured out that their blogs are so misleading?  we can't be the only readers getting it so wrong.

i've been reading the Boyer threads from around the time of Brigid's wedding, but i've never noticed anyone here intentionally pick apart their blogs out of spite.  J&C present as hurting, and our reaction has been primarily concern for them and annoyance at their parents for not giving them proper help.  maybe the fear thing is just a knee-jerk reaction to defend their parents.  if so, i get that, but i'd still like to see them engage in a little more free thinking.  i don't mean that they should completely turn away from their parents, but rather that they really need to analyze their lifestyle and how they are/aren't benefiting from it.

[FundiesInParis]

Seconding @Georgiana and @catlady‘s posts here. 

I’ve followed the Boyer sisters blog since pre-Brigid/Gabe and they were genuinely some of my favorite people to follow, because I absolutely loved the sort of quirky vintage niche that they had carved out for themselves. 

However, I also followed them because I could relate to them, having grown up in a rather sheltered environment myself. They were the cool girls that teenaged me would have absolutely loved to have been.

But now that I’m in my mid-twenties and have lived in the world (going to college, getting married, etc.) my heart hurts for them, because their situation hits incredibly close to home.

If you’re reading here Charlotte and Jessica, just know that you absolutely can carve out a life with standards that you’re comfortable with in the greater world, you can still be concerned about modesty or saving yourself for marriage, or whatever other things may concern you. It’s scary, but it’s absolutely worth it. 

[FilleMondaine]

On 3/29/2018 at 10:52 AM, EowynW said:

Honestly, once I left and got married and had new opportunities open up to me, and started trying to heal and processing how my first 29 years were a total waste, the thought of having kids and spending the NEXT 20 years caring for them and invested in them, and then not having time or money to grow, live, go on adventures and invest in myself until my 50s, just really makes me want to die inside. I know that sounds so awful and selfish. 

As a person abused by a woman who did not want children, I applaud your decision!

NOT that you would ever abuse someone, rather that we should make it possible for women to choose the size of their family! (Part of choosing is knowing that there is accessible and quality childcare and paid parental leave, too!)

As for me? We have exactly one kiddo. No more. I'm not a kid person, and one is about all I can handle without going into PTSD flashbacks. I adore Tiny Fille. Lot's of therapy before and after, of course. And it is a challenge. (It is ok to be bittersweet, too. After all, chocolate and vanilla ice cream are both delicious, even if they are technically opposites)

There is so much good to do in the world, with children and without. My childless uncle and aunt did so much for me. The others in this forum have said the same thing. You do YOU! Only as a whole self can you wholly give back. This mother salutes you! (And this mother also chose a childless set of godparents so that kiddo grows up with some lovely adults to ask the embarrassing questions to. Childless adults are just cooler and more accepting of teens being adorable)

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Georgiana said:

I actually put a good deal of thought into an attempt to make this post constructive in case it is read.  I hope my comments are taken with good faith, as they were meant to be helpful.  Really.

Nicely put. I'm now going to play devil's advocate a bit.

I think we all get an attack of conscience when a Fundie says they read here and feels hurt, because most of us are not out to hurt their feelings.  We only comment on what they put out in public.  We discuss how their blog posts are perceived by us.  And that in itself should be important feedback to them if they read here.  Constructive or not. 

Although an effort to be constructive in criticism is kind we don't always manage that all the time.  Because we are here to criticize what we see as unhealthy Extreme Fundamentalist beliefs not to mentor Fundies or pat them on their little heads.

We try to self-moderate the more BEC comments and we mostly succeed.  But I think a good rule to keep in mind for all our snark subjects - is "how would I feel if they actually read this?"  If you would personally feel like dog poop - then don't post it.

Actually the worst thing I saw when I scrolled through the Boyer threads was an attack by a new member against Brigid.  She was accused of being horrible to a disabled child at a performance.  A lot of us did not find that accusation credible, questioned the story, and defended her.  I still suspect that new member was a Boyer plant to make us look bad, but have no proof

For our snark subjects (or victims) - perception is everything, and criticism from outside your "in group" and loving family and friends is valuable feedback for everyone.  People should chew it over.  Assess it.  Reject what doesn't fit.   Modify their output if they see the need,  and go on with life.  But don't reject negative feedback out of hand because it can be valuable.

Every day those of us in the "real" world, in jobs where we have performance evaluations, in academic environments where we sit exams, and in our social lives, have to deal with criticism.  Some of it is not constructive.  The Boyer sisters do not get a pass just because they have a internet blog and are sheltered.  We may pity them - and we do.  But that blog will be judged, here and elsewhere.   It is the internet.  They put it there.

Remember that the Boyer Sister's blog has always been monetized.  (Or at least it was when I first saw it.)  They have spent plenty of time sitting in judgement of others - and yet Charlotte shrieks "haters" when she and her sisters are criticized.

Even before the MLM, they were setting themselves up as mentors for other young women and earning money for the product placement in their blog posts.  It takes a lot of hubris for three teenagers to set themselves up as mentors. 

A lot of what they preach is unhealthy (excessive sheltering), ugly (that whole purity culture stuff), and dangerous (their contempt for professional mental health care and irresponsible pushing of essential oils without considering the side effects and when they are contraindicated.)

I appreciate the fact that Gabe came here and largely enjoyed his input.  He has a sense of humor, and I think he is also very talented.  I always appreciate when Fundies take us on on our turf.

However, Gabe never really explained why we were "wrong" about Charlotte and Jessica.  He just told us we were.  He also over-rated his debating skills.  He attempted to mansplain to a group of rather sophisticated, some highly intelligent, mostly feminist, and overall much better educated women.  He got his rear end handed to him.  Them's the breaks on FJ.

So, bottom-line, we are still looking at a pair of young women who are sheltered, melodramatic, judgmental and conceited enough to presume to mentor and advise others with very little life experience or education themselves  They also appear miserable in their lives but seem unable to change them, 

We can pity them.  We can challenge them.  We can give them feedback.  We do them no favors if we tell them that they and their lives are wonderful when we think they are not.

If you think Charlotte and Jessica are too fragile to accept critiques - then you can stop.  But remember they could be laughing all the way to the bank on their MLM profits leaving numerous victims in their wake.

[hoipolloi]

@SolomonFundy, @Palimpsest & @Georgiana -- all good, thoughtful comments on Charlotte & Jessica Boyer's lives, as they themselves present them. We're not making stuff up but simply discussing what's there to be read or seen by anyone.

As we've said umpty-jillion times here, if you don't like what people say about your online activities, thoughts, etc., then take them offline or go private. It's easy. 

 

[Grimalkin]

      Wait a second. @Gabe assured us that they giggle and giggle while reading here.

     I felt bad when Alecia Pennington showed up because I made fun of her mom so much. I don’t feel a tiny bit bad about this. 

     They are self centered little gits. 

[Carm_88]

Yes, what did happen to the giggling about us? Does it sting now because we are right? There's no giggling anymore because Brigid is gone and there is just sadness and cold truth? Funny how that happens. Jessica and Charlotte, if you are reading here and you have a problem with what we are saying then change our opinions. Do something other then the same ole, same ole! Best of luck! 

[FilleMondaine]

On 3/30/2018 at 10:55 AM, Palimpsest said:

 

(Not sure why that pic of Gabe showed up in the link.  He doesn't come in until a year later.)

I love that there is a picture of @Gabe, and I'll explain why: Do I remember that he actually did research on what places were important to Brigid (aka prioritizing HER wishes) during courting and proposal? Doesn't he follow the direction of his sister-in-law (mere unwed women!) when it comes to not-posting their business here? Remembering how dismissive Kelly's menfolk were to her, it is darn near wonderful to see a man in this culture who appears to value his wife, her desires, her interests, and the wishes of the other women in his circle. He is not without imperfections of course, but I applaud the sort of man who works to incorporate a clothing items that celebrate Brigid's interest in historical sewing while also celebrating her post-baby and during-breastfeeding body!

So, if FJ started a thread of "Fundie Dudes who are probably not a**holes", Gabe would be on it! (And maybe 3-4 others. There doesn't seem to be many kind fundie dudes)

Of course, as @Palimpsest says, the Boyer thread really ought to have a picture of one of the ladies.

[dramallama]

 

Idk, Gabe seems pretty smug & willfully ignorant to me, and has since he arrived here - as demonstrated above. See his other comments in that thread where he goes on to describe emergency contraception as murder despite being entirely wrong about how it works/what it does, and advocates for investigating miscarriages as potential murder.  See also his initial arrival and how he burst in here setting out a lengthy list of rules for how the board would be allowed to address or question him.  Just because he doesn't lock his wife in a prayer closet doesn't mean he's a good dude, that's a pretty fucking low bar to clear. 

[Palimpsest]

6 hours ago, FilleMondaine said:

He is not without imperfections of course, but I applaud the sort of man who works to incorporate a clothing items that celebrate Brigid's interest in historical sewing while also celebrating her post-baby and during-breastfeeding body!

So, if FJ started a thread of "Fundie Dudes who are probably not a**holes", Gabe would be on it! (And maybe 3-4 others. There doesn't seem to be many kind fundie dudes)

Actually Gabe and Brigid are a match made in heaven - because they both loved history, sewing, and re-enactments.  It is how they met, pretty much.  Gabe already had a career as a tailor making kilts and accessories, although I think he also has a more traditional job to help make ends meet.  He's a very good tailor.

Sadly, the type of re-enactment events they like aren't big on historical accuracy.  Fundie revisionist history for the win.  See the Vision Forum (Doug Phillips) events that made us wince.  Quite aside from "celebrating" the Titantic (because the men were all so brave and saved the women and children, don't you know), the Jamestown and Plymouth events were especially cringeworthy.

I think Gabe is just a product of his upbringing.  Smug, arrogant, and willfully ignorant come along with that and he is just spouting the party line.  He's also still very young so I hope he'll break out of that mindset as he grows up.  I don't think he's an asshole, per se, and he genuinely seems to adore Brigid.  

I don't know whether it has sunk in yet for Gabe, but he has a big incentive to see Jess and Charlotte either married, emotionally stable, and financially independent, or all three.  The Boyer parents are in their 50s, and in 20 or 30 years time he could find one or both of sisters on his doorstep demanding to be taken under his protection.  

Here's Gabe's first post if anyone wants their memories refreshed.  He took the jokes about Swedish fish and yeti pelts rather well: 

 

[FundiesInParis]

Charlotte’s Easter ig post.

[Palimpsest]

Happy Resurrection Sunday  Easter, Charlotte.

What is so rough about your life right now?  Inquiring minds and all that.

[formergothardite]

51 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Sadly, the type of re-enactment events they like aren't big on historical accuracy.

Yes, Gabe did show a fondness for a certain whitewashed, Christianized version of history. If I remember correctly he struggled with very idea of whitewashed history. 

I do not see him as a total asshole, just a young fundie guy who has been trained to view himself as educated on subjects when he really only has the most shallow of understanding. He is smug and very full of himself. There is hope that he can grow out of it, but it will take humility on his part. 

[FilleMondaine]

3 hours ago, dramallama said:

  Just because he doesn't lock his wife in a prayer closet doesn't mean he's a good dude, that's a pretty fucking low bar to clear. 

We're talking about fundies. Not locking wife in prayer closet is actually a pretty high bar for many of them. (Also, after teaching college for a decade, I will never stop enjoying the folly of 20-year-olds. I get a kick out of them and their dumbness. Not that I was ever a 20-year-old dummy. Not ever)

Looking back at my post, I was like, "Oh em gee. This was fawning." But I'm not feeling well, my brain is not working, and I made the mistake of reading the Bradrick!! thread first. @Gabe is imperfect, but an angel by comparison. I felt compelled to post. He seems to "get" Brigid. Like most here, I have a soft spot for that adorable weirdo, and his own weirdo reenactment picture shows us how perfect he probably is for her.

Sorry for typing without thinking, guys. Learned my lesson. (nudge, @Gabe, this is how you do it)

[Palimpsest]

6 minutes ago, FilleMondaine said:

Looking back at my post, I was like, "Oh em gee. This was fawning." But I'm not feeling well, my brain is not working, and I made the mistake of reading the Bradrick!! thread first. @Gabe is imperfect, but an angel by comparison. I felt compelled to post. He seems to "get" Brigid. Like most here, I have a soft spot for that adorable weirdo, and his own weirdo reenactment picture shows us how perfect he probably is for her.

No need for apologies at all.  And you haven't seen "fawning" unless you frequent the Bates threads.  Dear Rufus!  You would think Chad Paine was the best thing since sliced bread the way some people talk about him. 

I have a very soft spot for Gabe too.  He does need to get over himself, the Patriarchal crap, and understand that he isn't all that and a bag of chips -  but he doesn't seem to be a bad guy at all.  I'm sure he would describe himself as "Mr. Reliable," not Mr. Commando or Mr. Visionary in Debi Pearl's framework.  And for Brigie's sake, thank Rufus!

 As @formergothardite says, a bit of humility would become Gabe, but I think genuine humility will be much harder for him to achieve.  I predict that he will change his mind about some things but do a Kristina:  "No, I never changed my mind - because I never said that!" - as we point to exactly where they did say that.

He is young, and IMO has good potential to develop his mind, increase his knowledge and understanding, and change his views though.  I hope he does.