Joy and Austin: 248 Days Since the Wedding and Still Counting

[lumpentheologie]

15 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Based on the content of the message, it could only be Austin or his BIL. And I think it would be more natural to have been written by Austin, just because if this were an in-law, it would make more sense to list the wife's experience first as that is the more contextually important one. 

I imagine for these fundies the wife's experience probably never comes first, context be damned. 

[HarleyQuinn]

That message reads like Austin. Not that I expected anything different, but it's still a shame to have "proof" if you will. Joy is a doormat just like her sister-mom and will do whatever her headship commands. 

I don't know how anyone can look at the Pearl's methods and think it's okay. Spanking a four month old baby? Come on.

I remember when 19KAC was on and they showed Anna telling one of her littles she wanted "instant obedience" when she took them out to the store. Yeah, probably a Pearl thing too. 

[ElToro]

10 hours ago, Gillyweed said:

(Sorry for this kind of random rant about my brothers. Whenever I think of one negative aspect of my family life, everything else comes flooding in too)

Don't apologise - sibling dynamics are hugely important. (mine is a doozie!)

That's why I find Joy interesting (within the sphere of dullness that is the Duggars). They are all quite competitive and, as they grew up, she was lumped in with her significantly older sisters. That's really hard to compete with or, rather, compare herself too. (Especially with so little outside contact with peers who weren't part of the wider Duggar family context.)

It was telling that she was so proud to be "the first sister to have her own house". She's trying to keep up with the older girls in the fundie race of life. Unfortunately, her prize is early motherhood, a husband from a weird family and the Pearls as trusted guides. It will be interesting to see, over the next few years, how they cope as the reality of a small baby, a rubbish sex-life and still being financially dependent on the Forsythe family business hits home. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@ElToro and dealing with raising several children. I hope that they will be more like Jessa and Ben and realize that kids are sweet and adorable when left to be themselves.

Odds are they will be the fundiest of the oldest kids, I hope I'm wrong and they just go lowkey redneck country conservative but I doubt that with both families so close and so controlling.

[HereticHick]

11 hours ago, SamuraiKatz said:

Austin's BIL's father is state representative Bob Ballinger. I think the son works in his dad's office. 

I'm sorry; I misspoke when I said that I thought that Austin's BIL, Bobby Ballinger Jr., works for Rep. Womack. He's a staffer for Rep. Westerman, in his Ozark office. He also works as a real estate agent.

He does not work for his father, a state representative.

See:

http://www.ozarkchamberofcommerce.com/Government

https://www.techties.atu.edu/s/978/16/index-social.aspx?sid=978&gid=1&pgid=252&cid=4082&ecid=4082&crid=0&calpgid=15&calcid=752

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobby-ballinger-600b9997

and other sites. 

I can also see him in the current U.S. House of Representatives email and telephone directories [not publicly accessible]

[VineHeart137]

10 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

There is a huge difference between our idea of spanking and Pearl's idea of spanking.  Spanking a child on the bottom one time and lecturing on is what I and you consider spanking.  What the Pearl's are suggesting is using pain to make your children do what you want them to, they use fear and pain to keep the child in place.  The Pearl's goal is to beat and scare any will out of the child until it will do exactly as told with out question. 

I was thinking this. While I personally am not convinced that Jessa and Anna have not/would never lay a hand on their children, I think the M kids and the Seewalds are more likely to get the former- Open palm on the butt once or twice with a lecture. Whereas it sounds like there's a good chance the Forsyths may very well follow the Pearl method of torture and I wouldn't be shocked if the Dillards were doing the same. Not sure about the Vuolos yet.

I'm looking at my 2.5 year old and just imagining how afraid she would be if I ever beat her with a rod and just the thought literally makes me want to cry. It boggles my mind that people can not only treat their children this way in the name of "discipline" but also be quite proud to let the world know this is what they do.

[Carm_88]

Well that's absolutely disgusting. I can't say that I am shocked though. Joy and Austin came out of the gate with this pregnancy with an anti-abortion message. That showed me where their values lie. They're pure fundie and not much is going to change that. I would say that Ben and Jessa started out that way but it was a bit different. Ben was younger and his family is less strict then the Duggars. I would say that Austin's family lines up exactly with the Duggars strictness wise. I'm disgusted but hardly shocked, if that makes sense. 

[singsingsing]

I'm starting to believe that Joy must have conceived on or just about on her wedding night, which would have her due closer to February 16th. Not to start the Joy-bump-size carnival again, but just looking at her it's hard for me to imagine her going another month. (I'm keeping my March 4th guess, though.)

If she delivers closer to the middle of this month, she will get shit from tabloids and ignorant people who can't count (which is rich coming from me, I know, given that I also can't count). But I'm finding that I have very little pity for her. Maybe it's the Pearl thing. I don't think it's right, but at this point I'm kind of like, "Wow, Joy, people who don't know you are judging you? Making inaccurate assumptions? Casting aspersions on your lifestyle and relationship? Spreading lies to further their own agenda? Enjoy that taste of your own medicine, kiddo."

[karen77]

I am still taking a wait and see approach, as sometimes, even when you are pregnant, you still have that "potential" child thing going on, but then when they are actually here, that can change your perspective. 

I won't rule anything out, but sometimes that's all it takes, momma bear sets in.

[SassyPants]

10 hours ago, Kangaroo said:

Joy continues to be very pregnant.

For how she looked in the beginning stages, I think she really has managed well in the end here. I know the last month is the hardest, but compared to how big her sisters carried, I think she looks great! Joy is really short waisted-

[Rosalie]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

For how she looked in the beginning stages, I think she really has managed well in the end here. I know the last month is the hardest, but compared to how big her sisters carried, I think she looks great! Joy is really short waisted-

Yes, I have to admit that in the beginning of Joy’s pregnancy, I was abolutely 100% sure she would have conceived out of wedlock, b/c her bump was big very early. But in the last couple of months, the bump doesn’t seem to have become much bigger. I guess she is carrying outwards. 

I would like to see a picture of the bump in profile while standing, b/c I’m curious to see if the bump has begun to sink, or if it still is like a very large soccer ball.

[Georgiana]

47 minutes ago, Rosalie said:

Yes, I have to admit that in the beginning of Joy’s pregnancy, I was abolutely 100% sure she would have conceived out of wedlock, b/c her bump was big very early. But in the last couple of months, the bump doesn’t seem to have become much bigger. I guess she is carrying outwards. 

I thought she looked MUCH further along than she was claiming to be until I went back and looked at Jill's photos from her Izzy pregnancy.  Joy and Jill carried VERY similarly, and Joy was the same size approximately as Jill at all of her milestones.  It's just a Duggar thing I guess...Jessa tends to carry on the larger side too, though she dresses her bump differently than Jill and Joy.  I wouldn't be surprised if Joy goes late like Jill did, though I hope Joy gets better medical attention and makes better decisions.

 I'm also not surprised Joy will be using the Pearls.  Joy seems to me to be perpetually the "lost daughter".  She was raised largely during the Lost Times, when Michelle was too overwelmed to do everything herself but the sister-moms weren't yet ready to fully take over.  She didn't get the identity of the oldest 4 Duggar Girls because she was too young to be in that subgroup, but she was excluded from having a group of her own because her nearest in age siblings were boys.  Joy fell through the cracks A LOT, and certainly in terms of education.

I don't think Joy has her own direction yet because having your own direction requires you to have something of your own identity, and I don't think Joy has that.  And instead of developing her own identity, she found a substitute in Austin.  Austin now defines Joy, which is why I think she seems so insecure and always defers to him.  She's like a young teenager desperate to fit in with the leader of the popular girls: she wants them to TELL HER WHO TO BE.  

And because she lacks individual direction, she's not going to challenge what she was raised with.  Why would she?  Independent thought also comes partially from an individual identity and belief system, and Joy isn't there yet.  She has no REASON to ask questions.  

And she has every reason not to.  Asking questions and critical thought would lead her to some VERY unsavory conclusions, and I think that at the end of the day, Joy senses this and wants to avoid it.  I mean, how do you have a relationship with people who shoved you aside and neglected you the way JB and M emotionally and educationally neglected Joy?  How do you have a "keep sweet" relationship with a mother who pawned you off on your older but still too young sister so that she could keep having babies? How do you have a relationship with parents who ignored your educational struggles because their beliefs were more important than your success? How do you deal with the fact that not only did your parents use abusive discipline on YOU, but they ALSO forced you to become complicit in that abuse and use abusive discipline on your younger siblings?

Joy is a young girl trying to fit in by being the person other people have told her to be.  They've told her that cool girls beat their babies, and that's all she needs to hear to be 100% on board.    

[Georgiana]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I'm starting to believe that Joy must have conceived on or just about on her wedding night, which would have her due closer to February 16th. Not to start the Joy-bump-size carnival again, but just looking at her it's hard for me to imagine her going another month. (I'm keeping my March 4th guess, though.)

If she delivers closer to the middle of this month, she will get shit from tabloids and ignorant people who can't count (which is rich coming from me, I know, given that I also can't count). But I'm finding that I have very little pity for her. Maybe it's the Pearl thing. I don't think it's right, but at this point I'm kind of like, "Wow, Joy, people who don't know you are judging you? Making inaccurate assumptions? Casting aspersions on your lifestyle and relationship? Spreading lies to further their own agenda? Enjoy that taste of your own medicine, kiddo."

I think in the beginning, I was more sympathetic to Joy because her and Austin hadn't yet made the choice to continue living in the public eye.  I'm a firm believer that everyone deserves privacy UNTIL they make a choice themselves to live a public life.  So when I first hit the rumors (which surfaced before the wedding), I felt that they were uncalled for and were speculating about the private life of a girl forced by her parents to live a certain way.

But now, since Joy and Austin have politicized their pregnancy themselves AND made choices to publicly push their values, I think it's fair game.  If you are going to use your pregnancy to shame other women, you can't be mad when something happens and that shame gets turned around on YOU.  You put YOURSELF up there on that pedestal, so don't complain to me about the height of the fall when it all comes crashing down.  

[JesSky03]

I think Joy looks "appropriately sized" for her pregnancy. Man I'm glad people aren't analyzing my body...I'm due in 3 weeks and in the last week I've gained 4 pounds. I definitely have reached the point where I look like I swallowed a basketball. 

Them supporting and defending the Pearls is disgusting. My only hope is Austin had to respond the way he did because he knows his parents will see it. I was spanked (and slapped) as a child and it definitely had a negative impact on my relationships with my parents. There are quite a few incidences from my childhood that still haunt me. My dad still doesn't think he did anything wrong but he often asks why none of his kids feel comfortable coming to talk to him about personal problems. Its incredibly frustrating and awkward that he refuses to see how his actions have impacted us especially when he talks about how abusive his own father was and how he never wanted to be like him.  I absolutely refuse to continue the cycle with my own children and I just can't imagine anyone looking at their infant and still deciding that corporal punishment is okay. I hope Joy and Austin come to their senses when it comes time for them to actually have to follow through on these horrible beliefs. 

[Plum78]

Hi, this is my first post despite lurking for about 8 years! )At one point I actually thought I'd joined but turns out I didn't!)

I've always thought that Joy would be one of the ones to stick closest to her upbringing ever since the episode when she was hiding the adverts with her hand whilst they were watching the tiny TV. 

[Glasgowghirl]

While I hope Joy and Austin don't use Pearl's methods, I sadly think they will use some of them. They don't believe it is wrong, that is what scares me most about fundies is that they blindly follow things that most people see as harmful in the belief that it is right. Their parents screwed them up big time by using those methods on them. Hopefully Austin is just saying that to appease his parents but sadly I think he will.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

6 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

"instant obedience"

Willingly, Immediately. Don't forget the "right response" training. Practicing instant obedience.  If Daddy says "hit the baby as hard as you can," the kid has to do it.  Sick.

[Jane the Virgin]

22 hours ago, mizandry said:

So all this to say, I'm sad but not surprised by this response, because the breeding grounds for this mindset are everywhere. This is also why the Dillards continue to give me really bad vibes just from what little we've seen of their "parenting" methods online. Derick's mentality towards his kids is eerily in line with To Train Up A Child's understanding of children and their psyches, and we know Jill is very afraid of the outside world and of straying from her parent's path. She dutifully obeys and it's hard for me to not believe she will dutifully obey her husband in making their children "wooden spoon survivors," just like he and Cathy and Dan have joked about in reference to their own upbringing.

Unless these couples go out of their way to disavow the Pearl methods or do things for their kids that contradict their "teachings," none of Gen 3 is really safe.

I'm new to FJ, so apologies if this is well known. Curious as to what the Dillards have put online that indicate they are following the Pearls methods?

I agree that Jessa seems much more bonded to her kids (and talks to, not at them). But I do wonder how hard it is to reprogram some of this stuff without intense work and self-exploration. I find it difficult myself to sort out with my own kids what I think is right and what just feels familiar from my own upbringing and I don't have nearly the baggage the Duggar kiddults carry from their childhoods.

[Georgiana]

I could even see Joy and Austin doubling down on raising their kids EXTRA in line.  They're young kids with something to prove, and that something appears to be to them the values they were raised with.  In addition, they need a niche.  They may not consciously realize this yet, but unconsciously at least, they realize they need to set themselves apart from other Duggar couples.  

And there is a niche open.  With the fall of Jill and Derick, the EXTRA CHRISTIAN (tm) role is open.  This probably feels "right" to Joy because she would be following in her sister-mom's footsteps somewhat.  With Jinger and Jessa going more towards a mainstream image, Joy staying super conservative sets her apart from her sisters and still fits in nicely with her life as caretaker at Fort Rock.  

And I think that secretly Joy wants to show up her older sisters a bit.  She's the first one with the house.  She could also be the first one to have a big family while staying in the movement.  She could be the one to inherit the Duggar IBLP speaking gigs.  None of the other Duggars have really been interested in PROMOTING the way they were raised lately.  They recognize it or quietly go their own way, but JOY AND AUSTIN could fill that space and become ADVOCATES, invested in openly furthering the movement.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they "feel called" to go this route.  

[Toothfairy]

Joy has no thing going for her. She's fundie. It's not shocking she's raising her kids fundie. She was never accepted with the older girls even if Jill was her mom. She probably still remembers the early days in the TTH. She was never accepted in her family. She had a close relationship with her brothers and was a ton boy but that' discouraged. 

[HarleyQuinn]

1 hour ago, Jane the Virgin said:

I'm new to FJ, so apologies if this is well known. Curious as to what the Dillards have put online that indicate they are following the Pearls methods?

 

Aside from every horrendous thing that comes out of dWRECK's mouth. They've shared photos of a screaming Israel being swaddled when he's way too old for it. Those photos - which I'm sure you can find by googling - look like a punishment. Now we're seeing photos of Sam being weirdly swaddled like they're trying to prevent him from moving too. 

[freshlemonade]

Two things scare me about all of this:

1.  Joy is very subservient, meek, etc. with Austin, but as seen in a lot of 19Kids and CO episodes, she is incredibly bossy and demanding with her younger siblings.  She probably witnessed a lot of blanket training and I could easily see her being a demanding, no-nonense, power trip mother while at the same time being a textbook helpmeet to Austin.

2. Derek and Jeremy (and I guess eventually Ben?) have very public jobs.  Their wives and kids are/will be very much seen by their community/flock? , etc.  Austin on the other hand does not.  The way they treat their children will not be on display and it would be a lot easier for them to use Pearl methods.  

Also, side note-I hope Joy and Kendra are getting to have some nice preggo bff time.  They are probably experiencing a lot of the same joys and anxieties.  

[Italiangirl]

we keep saying that Joy is the first to own a house but isn't Jinger the first? or being that Jeremy's house doesn't count?

[VBOY9977]

8 minutes ago, Italiangirl said:

we keep saying that Joy is the first to own a house but isn't Jinger the first? or being that Jeremy's house doesn't count?

Joy and Austin bought their house before they got married, so between March and May. Jinger and Jeremy ended up buying their house around June if I’m not mistaken. Also, I think the apartment they lived in before was a rental.

So yes technically Joy and Austin were first but not for long

[LacyMay]

9 minutes ago, freshlemonade said:

1.  Joy is very subservient, meek, etc. with Austin, but as seen in a lot of 19Kids and CO episodes, she is incredibly bossy and demanding with her younger siblings.  She probably witnessed a lot of blanket training and I could easily see her being a demanding, no-nonense, power trip mother while at the same time being a textbook helpmeet to Austin.

I can't remember specifics but I know I've seen a number of times where Joy has seemed demanding and very authoritative with her younger siblings. You can tell that she expects instant obedience. 

I think some of it is where she was in the birth order. She as far as I can tell grew up watching the four older girls be in command and in charge (including in charge of her) so she would have seen that as normal. And then they all left and she was the one who got to be in charge and rule over the littles. And who wouldn't go on a bit of a power trip after being bossed around for years? 

 

@Italiangirl I think Joy and Austin owned theirs first? I don't remember exact dates but I think Jinger and and Jeremy may have bought after  Joy and Austin were married?