Joy and Austin: 248 Days Since the Wedding and Still Counting

[justoneoftwo]

58 minutes ago, brusselsgriffon said:

I think it’s pretty clear that Austin wrote that, right? Or are there other young married people that work at Fort Rock? (I feel like if this person had children themselves, they might have added that in some way in the message) 

Does Austin work at Fort Rock?  I expect Austin would write something like this, but I don't see that we know this was him.

[Georgiana]

7 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Does Austin work at Fort Rock?  I expect Austin would write something like this, but I don't see that we know this was him.

Based on the content of the message, it could only be Austin or his BIL. And I think it would be more natural to have been written by Austin, just because if this were an in-law, it would make more sense to list the wife's experience first as that is the more contextually important one. 

[mizandry]

1 hour ago, BabyFactoryClosing said:

...... well that's horrifying @mizandry

Seriously though.

Until I'm proven otherwise, I've made the assumption long ago that multiple Duggar offspring (if not most/all of them) are going to be "training" their kids this way. Not because I want to accuse people of being abusive for fun, but because this is the world they live in, and to not "parent" this way is, -- from what I've been led to believe by the evidence I've seen --, even more extreme than switching to pants or getting a nose ring. We already know the Duggars have had a history of being influenced by the Pearls, that they've been an extension of their religious community since forever.

So far, Jessa and Ben are the only ones who've given me reason to believe they don't subscribe to this garbage and are actually trying something different, especially with the way Jessa talks about her kids online when they're misbehaving or displeased -- and the fact that she lets Spurgeon drink out of a bottle at age 2 and defends it, which directly contradicts To Train Up A Child. 

But even then... I can't fully trust that what they post is indicative of how they parent their children all the time. But I will note, because I read through that book over the course of two days (I wallow in filth): Michael Pearl makes a huge deal out of following their abuse methods 100% of the time, not "99% of the time," and provides several examples of families he and Debi allegedly shadowed where the beatings were not frequent enough/done too late and out of anger (if there's even a difference between a calm beating and an angry one...) and therefore made the "training" ineffective. Spurgeon has had multiple tantrums in public that his parents didn't seem inspired to beat him for (I hope?), so that's made me worry less than I used to. If they're truly not following Pearl tactics, I doubt that came without contention and guilt-tripping from at least Jessa's parents.

Whoever wrote this letter... it confirmed so much for me. Too many of these kids have been taught that their lives are "happier" because of the beatings, by their parents and by the book, and that not doing the same to their children means they're letting the "sin" in them fester and denying them "God's love," thus ruining their lives and the harmony of the family. The emotional manipulation entrenched in the Pearl's abuse manual is intense, and with the way they go about expressing it, I can see exactly how they've convinced other fundies like the Duggars, Rodrigues, and Forsyths to follow suit and affirm that this isn't abuse. If you convince one family that this is how you should righteously parent as a Christian and that to not think so means you're influenced by Worldly heathens... it can have a ripple effect. 

And of course, there are multiple rants in the later chapters about "modern parenting" (as in not abusing your kids for any and all perceived transgressions) and psychologists, with buzzwords like Hollywood, commies, sodomites and, especially, socialists!!1 all over the place. Just really drawing a line in the sand for their circles about what "real" Christians do, and making it clear to those who question these methods that they are failing God, their children, their religious community, and are far too influenced by us heathens -- exactly who they try so hard not to be. 

So all this to say, I'm sad but not surprised by this response, because the breeding grounds for this mindset are everywhere. This is also why the Dillards continue to give me really bad vibes just from what little we've seen of their "parenting" methods online. Derick's mentality towards his kids is eerily in line with To Train Up A Child's understanding of children and their psyches, and we know Jill is very afraid of the outside world and of straying from her parent's path. She dutifully obeys and it's hard for me to not believe she will dutifully obey her husband in making their children "wooden spoon survivors," just like he and Cathy and Dan have joked about in reference to their own upbringing.

Unless these couples go out of their way to disavow the Pearl methods or do things for their kids that contradict their "teachings," none of Gen 3 is really safe.

[lizzybee]

I've said this before but I dipped my toe in fundie life when I was a leghumper. I didn't even have children yet and two different moms were recommending the Pearls to me. 

[viii]

I'm glad people are speaking out about this. I was raised in a very religious cult, similar to fundie life (thank god we could wear pants) but To Train Up A Child was THE parenting handbook. Thankfully my parents picked through it and used what they could and discarded what they couldn't, but I know majority of my childhood friends were raised in the strictest sense. 

It was routinely taught to place a six month baby on a mat and surround it with toys and candy, and smack the hand every time the child reached for something, so they would learn to stay on the mat. Thankfully my mother never did such a thing, but I was put on a mat for church for a few years. We called ourselves mat rats, but looking back I see how horrifying the whole ordeal truly is. Again - so thankful my parents never followed that book to the law, and I would never classify myself as abused. My friends couldn't claim the same, though. 

I sincerely hoped that Austin and Joy would choose differently, but it would appear not. 

[The Wanderer]

I hope the flack they are getting for this keeps coming. The fact that children have died as a results of the Pearls’ disciplinary method should be enough to discourage this association. And once again, this only shows the true colors for both the Forsyths and the Duggars.

[HereticHick]

2 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Based on the content of the message, it could only be Austin or his BIL. And I think it would be more natural to have been written by Austin, just because if this were an in-law, it would make more sense to list the wife's experience first as that is the more contextually important one. 

I thought Austin's BIL was a staffer in a Congressional district office--maybe  Rep. Steve Womack's office in Rogers? If so, I don't know he'd be spending time on Fort Rock social media postings.

Perhaps I am confusing him with someone else.

[Georgiana]

2 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

I thought Austin's BIL was a staffer in a Congressional district office--maybe  Rep. Steve Womack's office in Rogers? If so, I don't know he'd be spending time on Fort Rock social media postings.

Perhaps I am confusing him with someone else.

I mean, I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely that it's anyone but Austin, but I was just saying that the BIL is TECHNICALLY a possibility based on the message.   

So while we don't definitely know Austin wrote it, AT BEST there's only two possible authors and the other is unlikely for the reasons you mentioned. 

[bananabread]

Well, Baby Forsyth......I hope you enjoy being beaten and starved into submission.

This really makes me wonder about the Duggar daughters and their marriage dynamics. Jill and Joy - the uber-submissive, fundie kids - have husbands who embrace fire and brimstone parenting. They both seem content to let their husbands take the wheel, even to the detriment of their family (ex. adventures in Sintral Amuuuuurica). Jessa - the not-very-submissive, "bitchy" kid - is clearly making her own rules and seems to have a very modern, affectionate parenting philosophy. Now, Jessa was blessed with a pretty kind, empathetic, and go-with-the flow husband, but I wonder if she would have gone against a husband who advocated for child abuse. I'm inclined to think she would have. I love those rare fundie women with a spine.

Also, for as must as Smuggar sucks, I don't think there has ever been a sign that he believes in Pearl parenting. And I can't imagine Anna hitting a child. The M-kids seem very loved.

[TheMustardCardigan]

It's amazing what these people are stupid enough/willing to say when they don't think it's going to go outside their fundie circle. So interesting.

[MargaretElliott]

Oh for the love of all that is cute and fluffy.

If it was Austin answering that text, I feel very bad for the child gestating in Joy currently. I'd feel bad for them anyway, being raised in this cult, but now I'm even more angry. Hopefully they take one look at their child and think "The Pearls' book is bullshit, we could never hurt this child!" But my hopes of that happening are not very high.

[mstee]

I’d be more surprised if any of the Duggar adult kids don’t spank their current/future children (sadly). I grew up in SoCal and was not spanked. My close friends weren’t either. The couple of kids who were, were in the minority. I now live in semi-rural Ohio, where not spanking is rare. To not spank is seen as spoiling. Even my mild-mannered non-confrontational MIL used a belt on my husband a few times when he was a kid. It frustrates me because I see how my friends and I have turned out (fine) who weren’t spanked and I don’t see it as necessary. Considering the Duggars live in a rural area, have followed Pearl, and believe in biblical punishment, I’d venture to guess that they are all fine with spanking. Even the ones who don’t seem like it- like Jessa. They’d probably be in the minority amongst their friends and family if they didn’t. 

[Jana814]

I have never spanked and neither were any of my friends. If I ever had kids I would never spank them. 

[snickers34]

2 hours ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

It's amazing what these people are stupid enough/willing to say when they don't think it's going to go outside their fundie circle.

Well, and what they think sounds 'normal' and not crazy. Since all they know is crazy, it's just normal to them.

[SamuraiKatz]

On 01/02/2018 at 11:33 PM, HereticHick said:

I thought Austin's BIL was a staffer in a Congressional district office--maybe  Rep. Steve Womack's office in Rogers? If so, I don't know he'd be spending time on Fort Rock social media postings. Perhaps I am confusing him with someone else.

 

Austin's BIL's father is state representative Bob Ballinger. I think the son works in his dad's office. Ballinger SR is ,thankfully, not my representative. Balinger's main legislative agenda is making LBGT folks miserable.  

[Gillyweed]

My mom would spank me with her hand when I was very little. I vividly remember running away to my room one time and lying down on my back, thinking she couldn't reach my butt. She, of course, found me and flipped me over to spank me. 

It hasn't really affected my relationship with her, as I consider her my best friend and often forget that ever happened, but I do wonder if spanking us as little kids has anything to do with why my family is so dysfunctional. My brothers physically cannot be in the same room without getting into a cat fight. One of them is the biggest diva on the planet and the other one has bullied me my entire life and on occassion made me feel scared to be home alone with him. 

I really hope the Duggar kids fill their homes with love. It really sucks to live in a house full of negative energy. 

(Sorry for this kind of random rant about my brothers. Whenever I think of one negative aspect of my family life, everything else comes flooding in too)

[Nargus]

9 minutes ago, Gillyweed said:

My mom would spank me with her hand when I was very little. I vividly remember running away to my room one time and lying down on my back, thinking she couldn't reach my butt. She, of course, found me and flipped me over to spank me. 

It hasn't really affected my relationship with her, as I consider her my best friend and often forget that ever happened, but I do wonder if spanking us as little kids has anything to do with why my family is so dysfunctional. My brothers physically cannot be in the same room without getting into a cat fight. One of them is the biggest diva on the planet and the other one has bullied me my entire life and on occassion made me feel scared to be home alone with him. 

I really hope the Duggar kids fill their homes with love. It really sucks to live in a house full of negative energy. 

(Sorry for this kind of random rant about my brothers. Whenever I think of one negative aspect of my family life, everything else comes flooding in too)

I remember being spanked as a child, though only one particular instance comes to my memory. I stayed on the playground after school to play instead of walking to my babysitters house (small town, under 1000 people). She called my dad in a panic when it got to be about half an hour past the time I usually arrived. He left work and drove around town and it took him almost an hour to find me (we had all migrated away from the school playground and I think we were at the playground by the lake).  He collected me, we went home, and I got a single swat on the butt, and a long lecture about making sure that an adult always knew where I was. I definitely wasn’t spanked often, it was never a ‘normal’ punishment. It was more of an extraordinary punishment that was reserved for extraordinary circumstances. I don’t think it affected my relationship with my dad, and no issues with my brother to speak of. 

[nvmbr02]

My mom spanked us all the time. For everything. With her hand, with a wooden spoon or sometimes a brush or a shoe. She would slap us across the face so hard it would leave a welt. She had a lot of issues, including drug and alcohol abuse so it is hard to say what caused the breakdown in our relationship. I only know that while she was alive I struggled to forgive her for a lot of my childhood and I don't know if I ever got to full forgiveness until after she passed away. My dad did not generally spank us. I only remember him spanking me once, when I was about 8. I don't even remember what I did, but I know I was smarting off and I now know that he was going through a lot at the time. He ended up leaving my mom a few months after that. Many years later he apologized for that spanking, he said he felt guilty about it for years. He was far from a perfect parent but I do think he was trying his best and I can't say that spanking made any difference in our relationship.

We have lived all over the US and overseas. In my experience, spanking is the norm some places and almost unheard of in others. I do currently have a few friends that spank their kids and I will admit that it bothers me. I have never heard any of them say that they use anything other than their hand and I have only heard of one swat across the rear. Unfortunately, it is not illegal here and there really is nothing to be done. Most of these friends have children quite a bit younger than mine so I do try to offer a different perspective when I feel it is likely to be received well. These people love their children and think they are doing the right thing for them. It can be hard to break free when you feel you had a good childhood and your parents raised you the same way. I will say though, it drives me crazy when someone says that they were spanked and they turned out fine and that is why i spank my kids. Many times I just think you think it is okay to hit a child and that isn't exactly turning out okay. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

31 minutes ago, Nargus said:

I remember being spanked as a child, though only one particular instance comes to my memory. I stayed on the playground after school to play instead of walking to my babysitters house (small town, under 1000 people). She called my dad in a panic when it got to be about half an hour past the time I usually arrived. He left work and drove around town and it took him almost an hour to find me (we had all migrated away from the school playground and I think we were at the playground by the lake).  He collected me, we went home, and I got a single swat on the butt, and a long lecture about making sure that an adult always knew where I was. I definitely wasn’t spanked often, it was never a ‘normal’ punishment. It was more of an extraordinary punishment that was reserved for extraordinary circumstances. I don’t think it affected my relationship with my dad, and no issues with my brother to speak of. 

There is a huge difference between our idea of spanking and Pearl's idea of spanking.  Spanking a child on the bottom one time and lecturing on is what I and you consider spanking.  What the Pearl's are suggesting is using pain to make your children do what you want them to, they use fear and pain to keep the child in place.  The Pearl's goal is to beat and scare any will out of the child until it will do exactly as told with out question. 

[Bad Wolf]

The Pearls have a video showing how to beat your child with a rod, using a doll. The audience was laughing. 

[Nargus]

8 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

There is a huge difference between our idea of spanking and Pearl's idea of spanking.  Spanking a child on the bottom one time and lecturing on is what I and you consider spanking.  What the Pearl's are suggesting is using pain to make your children do what you want them to, they use fear and pain to keep the child in place.  The Pearl's goal is to beat and scare any will out of the child until it will do exactly as told with out question. 

Oh Pearls idea of ‘discipline’ is disgusting.  I was more responding to the previous poster who mentioned being spanked. 

[TheOneAndOnly]

Anytime that bible passage is quoted I ask people to replace "rod" with "shock collar." Yes I get a lot of eye rolls but I like to imagine that I've at least made them think for a second.

[Kangaroo]

Joy continues to be very pregnant.

[SorenaJ]

Here spanking is illegal and completely unheard of. No one does it. It's not an option. Why anyone would ever hit their child is beyond me. 

[FundMe]

From my brief experience in fundie land,I think I can say these  2 will definitely beat their kids.  Here's why: RULES.   As we have seen, Joy is incapable of making decisions by thinking on her own.  Austin has control issues.  Both were beaten and brainwashed.  Joy especially needs RULES to follow.  As strange as this sounds, it makes life easier for them as adults.  When everything is in black and white, and you either can't (Joy) or won't  (Austin) see shades, it's easier because you don't have to make tough decisions..........

You just follow the RULES.  does that make sense at all? I just remember how I was at 23 and easily influenced.   These 2 are totally indoctrinated.   I don't believe we will ever see them looking out of their narrow windows at any other world view or opinions.  Sad for their children.    Thank goodness I woke up fairly quickly and no, I didn't beat my kids.  Someone gave me the Pearl book though.  Disgusting stuff .      Didn't mean to ramble.