Satanists challenge Missouri abortion laws before Supreme Court

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I love this! Thanks to @Buzzard for the link.

http://deadstate.org/satanic-temple-argues-that-missouris-extreme-abortion-laws-violate-their-religious-freedomfbrefreshforce/

Spoiler

This Tuesday, The Satanic Templewill be arguing to the Missouri Supreme Court after convincing an appeals court that the state’s mandatory 72-hour waiting period before having an abortion violates their religious beliefs.

The Temple is taking up the case of a member they refer to as “Mary Doe,” who claims the law goes against her religious beliefs. The woman contends that back in May of 2015, she was forced to view an ultrasound of her fetus and required to read a booklet that stated life “begins at conception.”

All of this was forced upon her despite the fact that she “adheres to principles of the Satanic temple and has sincerely held religious beliefs different from the information in the informed consent booklet,” according to her case summary.

“Specifically, her letter advised she has deeply held religious beliefs that a nonviable fetus is not a separate human being but is part of her body and that abortion of a nonviable fetus does not terminate the life of a separate, unique, living human being,” the case summary stated according to NBC News.

The Satanic Temple’s Jex Blackmoresays Mary Doe’s religious freedom is being trampled upon.

“The State has essentially established a religious indoctrination program intended to push a single ideological viewpoint,” Blackmore said in a statement. “The law is intended to punish women who disagree with this opinion.”

“Missouri’s state-mandated informed consent booklets explicitly say that life begins at conception, which is a nonmedical religious viewpoint that many people disagree with,” his statement continued. 

The Satanic Temple’s history of successful trolling Christians is unprecedented. They’ve put the evangelical-centric “religious freedom” arguments to the test with their “After School Satan” school clubs, they got Arizona Christian lawmakers to ban public prayer, and even had a Satanic-themed coloring book made available for display at an elementary school. The Temple’s strategizing is based around using religious conservatives’ need for religious superiority in the public sphere against them. Contrary to what some believe, most Temple members aren’t people who believe in a literal Satan. “The Temple understands the Satanic figure as a symbol of man’s inherent nature, representative of the eternal rebel, enlightened inquiry and personal freedom rather than a supernatural deity of being,” it said in a statement according to NBC.

If we win, however, we’ll have completely reshaped the Religious Freedom debate in the United States, offering hope for a religious haven against encroaching theocracy. The importance of this outcome can not be overstated.

Imagine if Satanists were the ones to get a Missouri anti-abortion law overturned.

I may consider converting.

[Carol]

I have a question.   Why wouldn't pro-lifers be OK with abortion if it means the fetus goes straight to heaven(this is what I was taught)?  Isn't heaven the end goal for all of them?  Why wouldn't they rejoice that a woman who didn't want to have a baby never has to worry about where that baby ends up?

I'm serious, I really do wonder about this. 

[delphinium65]

1 hour ago, Carol said:

I have a question.   Why wouldn't pro-lifers be OK with abortion if it means the fetus goes straight to heaven(this is what I was taught)?  Isn't heaven the end goal for all of them?  Why wouldn't they rejoice that a woman who didn't want to have a baby never has to worry about where that baby ends up?

I'm serious, I really do wonder about this. 

I've thought about that too.  According to most fundies (at least the ones I know), a child raised by a 'sinner' is probably going to end up in hell, but if aborted would go to heaven.  So at the very least, why do they want to interfere with a sinner's baby having an assured eternal destiny?  

Unless, of course, eternal destiny of the unborn isn't really a big concern of theirs...

[laPapessaGiovanna]

11 minutes ago, delphinium65 said:

Unless, of course, eternal destiny of the unborn isn't really a big concern of theirs...

It isn't. Their only problem is ungodly women having gasp sex and managing their own bodies as they prefer.

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, Carol said:

I have a question.   Why wouldn't pro-lifers be OK with abortion if it means the fetus goes straight to heaven(this is what I was taught)?  Isn't heaven the end goal for all of them?  Why wouldn't they rejoice that a woman who didn't want to have a baby never has to worry about where that baby ends up?

I'm serious, I really do wonder about this. 

The official stance of the RCC is that it doesn’t know what happens to the souls of unbaptized babies. Traditionalists tend to take a harder stance and state that aborted fetuses will end up in hell, because god has decreed no baptism equals no heaven, no exceptions. Some conservatives, especially those involved in anti-abortion activism will postulate that god might choose to save the souls of the aborted like he did with those of the holy innocents (the children killed by Herod after Jesus’s birth who are regarded as martyrs by the RCC). Protestants I can’t speak about because there’s so much theological diversity and Protestant Theology is not my specialty.

ETA This is what Focus on the Family says about the matter, and since many of the fundies we follow like this group, it may be as authorative as anything: https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-q-and-a/faith/heaven-and-the-eternal-destiny-of-preborn-infants

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Carol said:

I have a question.   Why wouldn't pro-lifers be OK with abortion if it means the fetus goes straight to heaven(this is what I was taught)?  Isn't heaven the end goal for all of them?  Why wouldn't they rejoice that a woman who didn't want to have a baby never has to worry about where that baby ends up?

I'm serious, I really do wonder about this. 

Because it violates the thou shall not kill commandment. 

In reality though, none of this is about the fetus. If it were the pro-life movement would be known for doing research on how to lower abortion rates and miscarriages and they would make it known that the understand making abortion illegal won't end it, it will just cause the death and suffering of women. 

[Carol]

After having been raised steeped in the indoctrination that abortion is murder, I find it hard to believe I never thought of this before.  None of the explanations I've read make sense to me.  Likely part of that is because I think of Jesus/God as something I attach human characteristics to.  Maybe this is my mistake?  I always thought of God as loving, as someone who gathered followers because he was kind, good, forgiving.  Turns out, according to my understanding, that he is really just a mean, petty, capricious tyrant who wants to get his way all the time and damns people to hell when they don't act as he thinks they should.  Maybe he even damns to hell all those aborted babies because they didn't get baptized and apparently that's their problem, not god's.

Who, in their right mind, would ever want to believe in/follow something like that?  I think it's masochistic.   

[wild little fox]

16 minutes ago, Carol said:

After having been raised steeped in the indoctrination that abortion is murder, I find it hard to believe I never thought of this before.  None of the explanations I've read make sense to me.  Likely part of that is because I think of Jesus/God as something I attach human characteristics to.  Maybe this is my mistake?  I always thought of God as loving, as someone who gathered followers because he was kind, good, forgiving.  Turns out, according to my understanding, that he is really just a mean, petty, capricious tyrant who wants to get his way all the time and damns people to hell when they don't act as he thinks they should.  Maybe he even damns to hell all those aborted babies because they didn't get baptized and apparently that's their problem, not god's.

Who, in their right mind, would ever want to believe in/follow something like that?  I think it's masochistic.   

Not just masochistic but narcissistic. 

[AstroNot]

I don't have anything constructive to add, but wow, that is one hell of a title. 

[llg1234]

10 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I love this! Thanks to @Buzzard for the link.

http://deadstate.org/satanic-temple-argues-that-missouris-extreme-abortion-laws-violate-their-religious-freedomfbrefreshforce/

  Reveal hidden contents

This Tuesday, The Satanic Templewill be arguing to the Missouri Supreme Court after convincing an appeals court that the state’s mandatory 72-hour waiting period before having an abortion violates their religious beliefs.

The Temple is taking up the case of a member they refer to as “Mary Doe,” who claims the law goes against her religious beliefs. The woman contends that back in May of 2015, she was forced to view an ultrasound of her fetus and required to read a booklet that stated life “begins at conception.”

All of this was forced upon her despite the fact that she “adheres to principles of the Satanic temple and has sincerely held religious beliefs different from the information in the informed consent booklet,” according to her case summary.

“Specifically, her letter advised she has deeply held religious beliefs that a nonviable fetus is not a separate human being but is part of her body and that abortion of a nonviable fetus does not terminate the life of a separate, unique, living human being,” the case summary stated according to NBC News.

The Satanic Temple’s Jex Blackmoresays Mary Doe’s religious freedom is being trampled upon.

“The State has essentially established a religious indoctrination program intended to push a single ideological viewpoint,” Blackmore said in a statement. “The law is intended to punish women who disagree with this opinion.”

“Missouri’s state-mandated informed consent booklets explicitly say that life begins at conception, which is a nonmedical religious viewpoint that many people disagree with,” his statement continued. 

The Satanic Temple’s history of successful trolling Christians is unprecedented. They’ve put the evangelical-centric “religious freedom” arguments to the test with their “After School Satan” school clubs, they got Arizona Christian lawmakers to ban public prayer, and even had a Satanic-themed coloring book made available for display at an elementary school. The Temple’s strategizing is based around using religious conservatives’ need for religious superiority in the public sphere against them. Contrary to what some believe, most Temple members aren’t people who believe in a literal Satan. “The Temple understands the Satanic figure as a symbol of man’s inherent nature, representative of the eternal rebel, enlightened inquiry and personal freedom rather than a supernatural deity of being,” it said in a statement according to NBC.

If we win, however, we’ll have completely reshaped the Religious Freedom debate in the United States, offering hope for a religious haven against encroaching theocracy. The importance of this outcome can not be overstated.

Imagine if Satanists were the ones to get a Missouri anti-abortion law overturned.

I may consider converting.

Join us!!! I live in Missouri, and this has been a long time coming. It's nice to see this finally end up in court.

[December]

5 hours ago, formergothardite said:

In reality though, none of this is about the fetus. If it were the pro-life movement would be known for doing research on how to lower abortion rates and miscarriages and they would make it known that the understand making abortion illegal won't end it, it will just cause the death and suffering of women. 

They'd also be in favor of programs that were "pro-life," by which I mean programs that help women and their babies to live. Like affordable and accessible prenatal care, food programs like WIC, housing assistance for families, health insurance for children, and so on...

[feministxtian]

"pro-lifers" are not. If they were they'd support common sense things like paid parental leave, universal health care, strengthening social safety nets, and maybe even universal basic income. 

But, since they're a bunch of selfish, controlling pricks who DO NOT, in the slightest, resemble the one they claim to follow, they're just in it for how much money they can keep in their goddamn pockets. 

 

[CyborgKin]

If "it's okay if they go straight to heaven" was a sound argument then killing Christians wouldn't be murder.

[ViolaSebastian]

I love Satanists for this sort of thing--they're very clever about challenging the separation of church and state, plus they make heads metaphorically explode. In Detroit, they insisted on a giant statue of baphomet, complete with goat head, pentagram, and adoring children in order to mount a defense against the installation of a statue with the ten commandments.

http://time.com/3972713/detroit-satanic-statue-baphomet/

[Buzzard]

It sounds like the Satanists are declaring victory!

http://deadstate.org/satanic-temple-victorious-over-missouri-in-abortion-rights-showdown/

Quote

According to a press release from the Satanic Temple, in an audio recording of the arguments published by the court, Justices of the court asked the State’s representative if, “it’s the position of the State that an ultrasound does not have to be conducted unless a person says they want the opportunity to hear the fetal heartbeat.”

Missouri’s Solicitor General Sauer affirms that the State’s interpretation of statute (MO Rev Stat § 188.027) is that women only be offered the “opportunity,” to have an ultrasound and listen to the fetal heartbeat, and if a woman declines hearing the audio, the ultrasound need not be performed and the requirement has been satisfied.

I'm not sure how making the ultrasounds optional means they win, but we'll see how the court rules.

[delphinium65]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

It sounds like the Satanists are declaring victory!

http://deadstate.org/satanic-temple-victorious-over-missouri-in-abortion-rights-showdown/

I'm not sure how making the ultrasounds optional means they win, but we'll see how the court rules.

Seems to me that the significance may just be that the 'Christian' point of view is no longer the only one that will be considered.  I hope they can take it a lot further, but if that's all it is, I'll still consider it progress.  

[Antipatriarch]

19 minutes ago, delphinium65 said:

Seems to me that the significance may just be that the 'Christian' point of view is no longer the only one that will be considered.  I hope they can take it a lot further, but if that's all it is, I'll still consider it progress.  

Exactly. I, and many other non-Christians, are happy to "live and let live" if Christians will do the same. But often Christians (especially, ironically, the ones that claim they are "persecuted in America") seem completely unaware of how many ways their particular faith has benefits and exceptions those of other faiths (and no faith) do not get.

I'm not a Satanist, but as @ViolaSebastian says, I admire them for the clever way they make the point clear: It needs to be a level playing field. Everybody gets a particular right, or no one does.

[HarryPotterFan]

This just makes me want America’s next president to be a satanist. No more twisted version of Christianity setting the rules. Fuck that. “Oh, woe is me!!! I’m being persecuted because I’m not allowed to persecute and harm those are different from me!!” Whiny little assholes. Try REAL persecution on for size.  I wish society would treat them the way they treat other people. Because you know, the golden rule...clearly that’s how they want to be treated.

On 1/24/2018 at 3:29 PM, formergothardite said:

Because it violates the thou shall not kill commandment. 

In reality though, none of this is about the fetus. If it were the pro-life movement would be known for doing research on how to lower abortion rates and miscarriages and they would make it known that the understand making abortion illegal won't end it, it will just cause the death and suffering of women. 

But that’s the problem. They don’t give a flying fuck about the health and life of women. If a woman dies, so be it. Of course the fetus would die too, but it’s better for two people to die than one!! (If you believe life begins at conception).

16 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I love Satanists for this sort of thing--they're very clever about challenging the separation of church and state, plus they make heads metaphorically explode. In Detroit, they insisted on a giant statue of baphomet, complete with goat head, pentagram, and adoring children in order to mount a defense against the installation of a statue with the ten commandments.

http://time.com/3972713/detroit-satanic-statue-baphomet/

OMG, I love them  Clearly the only “satanist” I ever met wasn’t a really one. He just used it as an excuse to be Islamophobic, anti-Semitic, etc. He was also dressed as Jesus on his Facebook profile pic. It’s like no you just want to be the Christian idea of Satan.

[FundieFarmer]

Seems to me that the significance may just be that the 'Christian' point of view is no longer the only one that will be considered.  I hope they can take it a lot further, but if that's all it is, I'll still consider it progress.  

I am a Christian, and I wholeheartedly agree with this. It’s mind boggling to me that Christianity is the faith that is most frequently deferred to, with a massive double standard. You want to headcover to show submission to Christian husband and God? Fine. You want to wear a hijab or burka? Absolutely not fine. Things like that are maddening to me, and I hope we get to a point where all religions are equal and outlawed from doing harm to their own.

[nausicaa]

On 1/25/2018 at 3:12 PM, Antipatriarch said:

I'm not a Satanist, but as @ViolaSebastian says, I admire them for the clever way they make the point clear: It needs to be a level playing field. Everybody gets a particular right, or no one does.

I've heard that most Satanists are actually quite tongue in cheek about the whole thing (most LaVey Satanists are actually atheists and don't even believe in Satan) and describe themselves as such to stir the pot and get Christians really thinking about religious diversity and true equal protections for all religions. 

The more I see of them, the more this seems to be true. And the more I love them for it. Also, Satanist Twitter is hysterical. 

[smittykins]

9 hours ago, FundieFarmer said:

I am a Christian, and I wholeheartedly agree with this. It’s mind boggling to me that Christianity is the faith that is most frequently deferred to, with a massive double standard. You want to headcover to show submission to Christian husband and God? Fine. You want to wear a hijab or burka? Absolutely not fine. Things like that are maddening to me, and I hope we get to a point where all religions are equal and outlawed from doing harm to their own.

I’ve seen a Facebook meme that asks “Why is this(picture of nun in habit)OK, and this(picture of woman in hijab)isn’t?”

[feministxtian]

On 1/25/2018 at 12:12 PM, Antipatriarch said:

Exactly. I, and many other non-Christians, are happy to "live and let live" if Christians will do the same. But often Christians (especially, ironically, the ones that claim they are "persecuted in America") seem completely unaware of how many ways their particular faith has benefits and exceptions those of other faiths (and no faith) do not get.

I'm a Christian. I don't preach...EVER. I live my life in accordance with what I believe. I don't see this "persecution" bullshit that other "Christians" claim. I love that the Satanists are poking the bear. Most Christians are stupid. They pass laws they think will favor themselves and don't think of the consequences...and then get all butthurt when they realize they opened the door instead of closing it. 

I am an outlier in Christianity. I am, what could be described as a "fundamentalist" Christian...however, because of that, I am politically quite liberal. I don't get how the other "fundies" can harmonize the gospels and their horrid political stances. It makes absolutely no sense to me.