Evangelical Free Church - Fundy or Fundy-Lite?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

In an attempt to slay some personal demons I've been revisiting parts of my distant past trying to gain some insight into some things I didn't fully understand as a kid.  

That was the church I attended with my mom ages 8-13 and I'd always considered it fundy-lite since big families were a thing but usually topped out at 7-8 kids and women wore pants, had jobs, only a handful of home schoolers.  But the more I've learned about various flavors of fundy here the more I realize their beliefs weren't that lite.  My mom was the least judgmental person I've ever known, she believed "evangalism" was letting your love of Jesus drive you to do things to help others and be kind...she never tried to convert anyone since she believed there were many paths to salvation and only God knew what was best for each of us.  Our job was to help those in need and do unto others and all that.  

The way she lived her faith was contrary to their belief statement in some profound ways.  Specifics below for the exceptionally bored.

So....anyone with experience with these EFCA people?  I looked it up to see what their official classification was and there are rabbit holes that go for miles ...reform or not reform and something called dispensationalist and I'm so lapsed I couldn't even remember to eat the candy from my Advent calendar on schedule so I jumped out before the ferrets had to be called.  

I will research this more indepth on my own but I thought I would throw it out here as some of you know more about this than I ever will...

Evangelical Free Church:  fundy or fundy-lite?

 

 

The TLDR of my religious background:

• Born into Catholic family - both sides
• My devoutly Catholic mom was excommunicated when she divorced my father when I was a pre-schooler.  She lost her faith in the RCC but not in God.
• When I was 8 I was invited by a friend to go to VBS at her Evangelical Free Church.  Everyone seemed so nice and there were a lot of fun elements, but I was viscerally sick (not hyperbole, I vomited in the grass) when I "learned" that only people who "accept Jesus as their personal savior" go to heaven and everyone else to hell.  I was terrified for my family and it was contrary to everything my mom had taught me about God to that point, which was that he loved everyone and looked out for us and wanted us to be kind and love each other.
  • I was a simple kid when it came to this stuff - that was good enough for me.
• I "accepted Jesus" and was "born again" by saying the words out of fear of hell and because the mean girl who kept making fun of me for not knowing anything about Jesus.  
  • Ftr I knew who he was...I was just unfamiliar with all of His alleged rules.
• After that I "accepted Jesus" repeatedly on my own because I didn't think I did it right since I never felt anything.  I was supposed to be filled with the Holy Spirit and all of this peace and joy and I really expected some kind noticeable transformation but nothing.  
• When AWANA started I went with my friend to that.  It was something to do and I quickly got in with this clique of girls so I kept going.   It was then my mom decided to see what kind of religion I was immersing myself in and soon was a regular on Sundays for service and Wednesdays for bible study.  Next thing you know she's on all kind of committees serving the elderly, the ill, where ever they needed her.  My mom was a joiner.  I ....am not.  
• Meanwhile I was vacillating between being very afraid of hell for both myself and everyone I love (with the exception of my mom who I never doubted was earmarked for Heaven) and thinking their belief system was wrong and the people stupid because they no only couldn't answer my questions logically, but they didn't like my asking them.  I was considered difficult by the very same people who loved my mother.  
• When I would ask my mom the same questions she never got angry, but she couldn't reconcile it either.  She never waivered from her 'God loves everyone' philosophy and that it's love that matters...for God and for each other....not what religion you are.  She firmly believed everyone went to Heaven unless you've overtly rejected God and then also became Hitler.  If you were brought up in a religion that didn't believe Jesus was the son of God why would God punish you with hell for merely following your own faith?  If you never learned of Jesus, or were taught of him by abusive people where you would understandably associate him with evil why would God send you to hell for things beyond your control?
  • Idk Mom, why would you belong to a church that taught such things?
    • Because I am very naive, Buffy, and I believe the best of everyone which makes it easy to focus on the positive and ignore unhappy truths to our peril!
• Between ages 8-12 I'm getting progressively more angry at God for forcing this Heaven or Hell thing on me when I didn't ask to be here in the first place...I was convinced I was not saved, couldn't be saved, and would regularly yell at God in my head demanding an opt-out option where I could skip the whole judgement and eternal assignment thing in favor of just ceasing to exist.  I was so terrified of the whole final judgement where your life flashes before your eyes and you go over your sins with Jesus that when I'd ruminate on it I'd have trouble sleeping and stomach problems.  
• I was ...not an easy child to raise...and this was a ongoing bone of contention between my mom and I.  As I got older and mouthier my offense at the subtly worded but pervasive anti-Catholic sentiment grew resulting in a blow out where I was no longer forced to go to her church, but I had to go to "a" church...so I went to mass so I could be an outsider to a whole new set of people.  But they paid no attention to me which I appreciated, and I liked the ritual of it. 
• I had and have to this day unveiled contempt for that church.  When she was dying and they gathered around her we didn't drive them away because they were her friends and she wanted them there....but suffice to say I am very good at shutting down any attempt to convert me and returning fire on snarky comments intended to shame my heathen ways.

 

 

[Coconut Flan]

My experience of Evangelical Free in SoCal is that it is definitely not fundie, but evangelical or what many of us call fundie lite.  They are much less rigid than say IFB.  Steve Maxwell would pass out if forced to attend. 

[louisa05]

I attended an E-Free church in college. The  associate pastor's wife had a job. Most families had 2-4 children. Divorced members were welcome. It was very light fundie light. I also attended an E-Free church off and on during the time I worked in Christian school. That church had pastors who acknowledged the need for medication for mental illness, never preached modesty in dress, and practiced a lot of community outreach that was not predicated on the recipients "getting saved". As I understand it from my time there in college, the "free" part of Evangelical Free means that individual congregations can hold a variety of doctrinal views when it comes to things like end times--one of the pastors at my college church was a dispensationalist, the other was not and that was considered okay. At the same time, both churches preached traditional gender roles in marriage, family values with GOP politics, the personal relationship with Jesus theology, mild anti-Catholicism, abstinence only sex education, and tea-totaling (gay marriage was not a public issue back then). They were not as legalistic as other evangelical groups I encountered later when it came to television, movies, music and interacting with "secular" culture. 

Just a minor note about your life story: while your mother may have felt unwelcome in the RCC due to divorce and would not have been allowed to receive communion if remarried without an annulment, and may have had some asshole priest who didn't know the doctrine or canon law say or do something wrong, I can guarantee you that she was not legitimately excommunicated due to a divorce. Excommunication is only for grave offenses such as heresy, apostasy, schism, physical desecration of the eucharist, physically attacking the pope, etc... not divorce. And currently, there is debate within the highest levels of the church with some cardinals and bishops moving towards allowing divorced and remarried Catholics to receive communion without annulments. I think it is a change we will see eventually. 

 

[Beermeet]

I'm in SoCal too.  I've seen this church in the town over from me.  They have got to be fundie light.  If not, they really would stick out here!  I personally always lumped them in with the smaller baptist churches.  Normal looking but never been in one.  

[Leftitinmysnood]

EFCA churches are known for being pretty hands-off on the denominational level, so you can have an extremely controlling EFCA church and also a really laid back one. The one we attended started out laidback, but took some shifts and became controlling. There are some stories floating around the internet about a couple of uber - controlling EFCAs in CA. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

27 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Excommunication is only for grave offenses such as heresy, apostasy, schism, physical desecration of the eucharist, physically attacking the pope, etc... not divorce.

I should have put an asterisk next to excommunicated.  The priest told her if she insisted on the divorce she could attend mass but forbidden to partake of the sacrament of Eucharist.  Which I understand is in the rule book...but it was handled poorly in other ways as well.

For a woman whose entire life to that point revolved around her family and the Church the rejection was profound.  She understood she wasn't technically ex-communicated but she felt she had been for all intents and purposes.  Divorcing my father was an incredibly painful (but necessary) decision for her after months of counsel with this priest.  

I have no idea if he was angry/offended that after so much discussion over so long that she chose to ignore his advice and leave anyway that he wanted to punish her...or perhaps scare her into changing her mind.  What it did was remove one of the remaining sources of comfort and solace she had when she was most afraid and it devastated her.  

Per my mother's other stories this priest wasn't a big fan of Vatican II and not thrilled about mass being in English so he wasn't exactly progressive.

She didn't judge the rest of the family for remaining Catholic and she wasn't vindictive, but as happy as she was that the Church became more welcoming and accepting in later years she had no interest in returning.

[louisa05]

20 minutes ago, Leftitinmysnood said:

EFCA churches are known for being pretty hands-off on the denominational level, so you can have an extremely controlling EFCA church and also a really laid back one. The one we attended started out laidback, but took some shifts and became controlling. There are some stories floating around the internet about a couple of uber - controlling EFCAs in CA. 

This is true, too. The E-Free church that my friend grew up in took a very conservative and legalistic turn in the early 2000s resulting in a church split. Her parents left when it all went down. It is a denomination that I think can have a ton of difference from church to church as there is no hierarchy, denominational supervision, etc...

@HerNameIsBuffy The priest could not under canon law--at any time in church history--refuse her communion just for being divorced. That only applies to those who remarry without an annulment. I sincerely hate when I hear stories of people leaving the church because a rogue priest made up his own rules. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, louisa05 said:

The priest could not under canon law--at any time in church history--refuse her communion just for being divorced. That only applies to those who remarry without an annulment. I sincerely hate when I hear stories of people leaving the church because a rogue priest made up his own rules. 

I know that's the rule now, wasn't sure what it was then.  I have no doubt she knew the rules, but the slap in the face from the parish where she had spent over a decade on various charitable committees, sending her kids to school, first in line for every fundraiser and bake sale because she truly loved the Church and the parish was home to her...the rejection was personal.  And she was a by the book kind of woman so no doubt he believed he was speaking for the Church.

It's a long time ago, she'd no longer with us and the church has changed so much....different time and place.  It was just relevant in that it was why my religious life took the weird little turn it did.  Had it not happened my attending VBS or anything of the sort would have been unthinkable.  

[clueliss]

I would look at the specific church this was. 

 

And i I am one who uses the term evangelical in addition to fundie and fundie light. To me fundie light is more fundie wanna be’s (meaning the individual or family not the church).  

[Beermeet]

@HerNameIsBuffy  What happened with your mother is one of the reasons I never felt at home in the Catholic church.  Born and raised Catholic, I wanted to rededicate myself personally and really embrace a Catholic adulthood.  I knew I would have to be fake or I wouldn't be accepted.  Because I do not believe it the right way to treat people like that.  To hold their beloved sacraments over their heads with the threat of cutting them off when they are already hurting.  Sorry mom had to deal with that on top of divorce.  

[meowfundiecatz]

So my husband grew up in an E-Free church in a state with not a lot of evangelical Christians. So it was fundie-lite. Big families (which was the norm of the state), large AWANA program, evangelism was very important. Lots of families home schooled, but not all.

I babysat for a little while for a family whose husband was an E-Free pastor. They were ultra conservative, no TV, no movies, no Halloween. The parents did listen to rock music. I believe they subscribed me to the Vision Forum catalog. The wife was reading "Passionate Housewives Desperate for God." But they wore pants, listened to musicals (yes, certain musical soundtracks were okay), and highly valued higher education. This particular pastor is Reformed, so think Jeremy Vuolo in terms of preaching. There were members of this congregation who were skirts only and very into VF and there were members who watched cable, dressed up for Halloween, and voted for Obama. So quite the variety. He pastors a different church now, of a different denomination.

So from my (personal) experiences the Evangelical Free denomination has a variety of beliefs in regards to personal conviction issues and would be considered "fundie-lite" with specific churches/members being more fundamentalist in beliefs/convictions.

My husband and I would consider attending a E-Free church if we were looking. I have mentioned before, but we would probably be considered fundamentalists. I just have been reading FJ for a long, long time.

[subsaharanafrica]

We went to an EV-Free church for a while. It was a straight up mega church with 3,000 plus in attendance every week. The pastor had a doctorate from Oxford. 

At the same time one of my parents’ siblings was involved with IBLP/ATI and I remember young teenage me thinking that they were crazy. I’d never experienced anything as legalistic/anti-education/crazy fundamentalist in all my life. 

[Palimpsest]

I'm going off the term Fundie-lite.  It tends to be used here as "not quite as bad as Gothardism."  I like Fungelical for churches I find on the cusp.

I have my own framework (still developing) from most to least extreme Fundamentalist Christianity and the likelihood of abuse, but individuals can belong to a less extreme church can believe and behave in extreme Fundie ways.  There is a huge amount of overlap and there are subsets to all of these categories.  

1. The biggest offenders are the churches that are completely independent of any kind of oversight where anyone can claim to be a "Pastor" and fuck up their congregation.   Think IFB and "non-denominational.  It is the luck of the draw what kind of church that is in reality.  Some, probably many, pastors are not abusive.  A lot get away with murder.

2. The really fungelical churches that do have some sort of oversight from a governing body. Technically each tub stands on its own bottom (each church is autonomous) but they can theoretically chuck a church or pastor out if they believe they have gone off the rails.  Think RC Sproul Jr. being disciplined by the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly.   Evangelical Free fits in here or the next category. 

3.  More established fungelical denominations with definite governing bodies and a clear method of ordination, governamce and discipline.  I put SBC in here.  There are many others of course.

4.  Very established "mainstream" with less emphasis on evangelism and strict governing bodies.  I chuck Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, some Baptists, some Presbyterians, etc. in here.  But all of these denomination's "names" (including Catholic) can be represented in the top three because of splinter groups and sects.

Confusing as hell.

 

[Briefly]

I have heard of Evangelical Free churches but honestly did not know anything about them. I worked with a lady once who went to one, she had a degree in some type of food science and the uniform she wore was pants. It seems like she was a very nice, very intelligent person but for some reason it seems like maybe she was not pro-birth control but not necessarily QF.

[apple1]

There is an E-Free church in my community and I know people who are members.

I would consider this particular E-Free church mainstream Christian, not even Fundy-lite.

YMMV, there are probably a lot of differences from congregation to congregation.

[Florita]

Ken and Lori Alexander attend an E-Free church. They don't allow her to mentor and she regularly complains about how the women dress. I'll give them props for that. So, I'd guess it's a doctrinally conservative church without going off the fundie cliff.

[FakePigtails]

I was involved in an e-free church for part of my childhood. Officially it was another denomination while I was there but they changed to e-free soon after I left because their previous denomination was too liberal for them, and the culture while I was there was definitely evangelical but I don't think it made it to fundie lite status. I don't recall much in the way of gender issues but I do remember being aware that my church friends may or may not have been okay with Harry Potter books  - but that group felt like a minority and I certainly wasn't ashamed of reading them myself.

I very much sympathize with the fear of hell issues - in my case it was less for me and more for my relatives who weren't Christians. In hindsight I'm really unhappy with that culture and its effects on me and it doesn't mesh at all with what little religious beliefs I now hold. All of that, the sinners prayer stuff, and the importance placed on premarital abstinence totally squick me out now. My husband wants to start taking our daughter to church at some point and after my experiences he knows I'll have to be okay with the church and that it had better be a very progressive one with none of the evangelical fervor (it's hard to pick a term for it) culture I grew up with. Thankfully he's completely okay with that. He's even pro ditching all of the abstinence stuff (thank Rufus, I don't want my daughter dealing with any of that especially).

[MamaJunebug]

I don’t think they ordain women and the one nearest me has a ”women’s ministry” which is a big ole red flag to this woman. I also don’t think they conduct liturgical services - Christian rock only, which doesn’t necessarily mean fundie.  I prefer traditional liturgies and singing and singable hymns, so I’d jot ve interested even if they had women clergy.

Sorry I’m not more help.

[livinginthelight]

Another SoCal voice chiming in. Around here, I would label the EV Free church "very conservative" but maybe not even "fundie lite", because they aren't cultish. They have plenty of healthy friendships in the community with non church members. Women work, members get divorced and remarried, and many of them go to public schools, though there are a number of homeschoolers among them as well. They emphasize Bible teaching and taking the Bible literally, but the idea of going to hell isn't a big focus of the church around here.

The religious/conservative aspects are, most members vote Republican and there are no women in leadership and they are anti gay marriage. Many of them would believe in young earth theology and would adore the Creation Museum.

The local EV Free church hosts a large Celebrate Recovery program, which is a Christian-based 12-step program for all manner of issues from alcoholics to substance abuse to sex addictions to codependency. So they don't deny the existence of these issues.

[ak1188]

NorCal former EVFree member here. Our congregation was definitely very Republican, anti-gay, and did not allow women in leadership under any circumstances. Lots of emphasis on modesty, purity, and abstinence in their youth groups, which is the main thing I remember. Definitely very anti-evolution and they took a literal interpretation of the Bible. There were subgroups of our congregation who did not use birth control and who homeschooled, but we were in the Bay Area and cost of living is unreal, especially for single income families. A lot of those tendencies were minimized out of sheer necessity, and I would bet that the families who prescribed to those ideas moved out of the area. We did have one family who packed up into an RV and wanted to settle “wherever the Lord led them,” but from what I remember the congregation thought that was a little extreme. Their grandmother was our AWANA leader and was furious that she was being deprived of the opportunity to know her grandchildren.

I would classify my particular congregation as fundie lite, but based on everyone else’s input, it seems that this really can vary from congregation to congregation.

[LittleLemon]

This has been a very informative post! A special interest of mine is examining the different branches of Christianity (history and differences). My neighbors go to the an Evengelical Free Church here in MN. I would describe them as Fundie-lite, if they're even fundie at all. Women work, wear pants, tank tops, piercings, colored hair, and tattoos. They are, however, literalists, and very strict with gender roles. The husband even went to ALERT. I've asked to go with them to a church service because I'm genuinely interested in how they are run. I'm Catholic myself, but they don't seem to think that's a black mark against me. 

[louisa05]

This has been a very informative post! A special interest of mine is examining the different branches of Christianity (history and differences). My neighbors go to the an Evengelical Free Church here in MN. I would describe them as Fundie-lite, if they're even fundie at all. Women work, wear pants, tank tops, piercings, colored hair, and tattoos. They are, however, literalists, and very strict with gender roles. The husband even went to ALERT. I've asked to go with them to a church service because I'm genuinely interested in how they are run. I'm Catholic myself, but they don't seem to think that's a black mark against me. 

Because you asked them to take you to their church which to them means you are hungering for “what they have” and they are going to convert you.

All fundamentalists and evangelicals want to convert. It gets you lots of points in your congregation. While some hardcore groups like to pass out tracts and accost people in the streets, more mainstream evangelicals like to be more subtle. They have a name for their strategy: “friendship evangelism”. It amounts to getting into a neighbor or co-worker’s life and using that relationship to slowly bring them into the church. A lot of the churches actually teach classes on it. They taught it in “Bible” class to our kids as part of the curriculum in their junior year at Christian school. All the skills you need to fake a friendship and get the target to your church.

Plus Catholics are the biggest prize. Once one is converted, they can be drug out for moving testimony of not only the conversion but also of how they never knew about Jesus in the evil Catholic Church and how they were trapped by liturgy and legalism.

[livinginthelight]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

 

Because you asked them to take you to their church which to them means you are hungering for “what they have” and they are going to convert you.

All fundamentalists and evangelicals want to convert. It gets you lots of points in your congregation. While some hardcore groups like to pass out tracts and accost people in the streets, more mainstream evangelicals like to be more subtle. They have a name for their strategy: “friendship evangelism”. It amounts to getting into a neighbor or co-worker’s life and using that relationship to slowly bring them into the church. A lot of the churches actually teach classes on it. They taught it in “Bible” class to our kids as part of the curriculum in their junior year at Christian school. All the skills you need to fake a friendship and get the target to your church.
 

I think you're being too harsh. Having dabbled in this type of church myself, and having many current friends who attend EV Free and other churches, I absolutely disagree that it's about "points" for conversion. (Jehovah's Witnesses are an entirely different story..). They also believe they are obeying the Great Commission, which is where Jesus said to go and make disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28: 16 - 20)

If you love someone, wouldn't you want to share something really awesome that you have? And wouldn't you want your friends to be with you in heaven? Yes, these people try to convert but it is out of love and good intentions. I don't believe they fake friendships and consider people "targets." They get excited when someone is interested in their church because they see an opportunity to help that person gain something very precious to them.

[Azriel]

I attended an E-free church as a teen. I considered that one to be primarily fundy-lite. There was homeschooling, larger families and we attended several of the bigger name conferences. However, my family was not any of those things and we were accepted. I did not agree with their teachings on abortion and dress so I stopped attending at 18.

[louisa05]

I think you're being too harsh. Having dabbled in this type of church myself, and having many current friends who attend EV Free and other churches, I absolutely disagree that it's about "points" for conversion. (Jehovah's Witnesses are an entirely different story..). They also believe they are obeying the Great Commission, which is where Jesus said to go and make disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28: 16 - 20)
If you love someone, wouldn't you want to share something really awesome that you have? And wouldn't you want your friends to be with you in heaven? Yes, these people try to convert but it is out of love and good intentions. I don't believe they fake friendships and consider people "targets." They get excited when someone is interested in their church because they see an opportunity to help that person gain something very precious to them.

And I think you are being naive. I’ve seen the printed materials for “friendship evangelism” training.