Dillards 46: Now with Pants and a Possible Nose Piercing

[jacduggar]

16 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I'm not sure I am happy for her.

As it stands - her nose stud and pants may be against Gothardism.  As some on FJ choose to define IBLP and Gothardism.  Plenty of Gothardites wear pants.  And nose jewelry isn't against all of that.

What saddens me is that these may not be "baby steps" towards freedom as some members, TV watchers, and Duggar fans may want to believe.

They may actually be a "baby step" towards an equally bad or even worse form of extreme Fundamentalism.  It isn't that simple.

Again, all Gothardites are extreme Fundamentalists, but not all extreme Fundamentalists are Gothardites.  I do wish some of us could take off the blinkers on that.

Yes! This was my thought with the pants/nose ring. Are they shocking for Jill? Absolutely. After spending the better part of a decade watching her on TV, seeing her at various speaking engagements, and reading books she’s written, it has (clearly) taken us all back. But there’s a massive spectrum of people who use ATI/IBLP. From Duggar extreme all the way down to more “conventional” people. In fact, I would argue that there’s probably people who use ATI just for the homeschooling curriculum (although why, I have no clue) but actually attend mainstream churches and live by more mainstream standards. 

 

I’ve gathered this after I fell into a rabbit hole one night reading stories by people who were raised with ATI/IBLP homeschool.

[Jess]

16 hours ago, meowfundiecatz said:

Oh if you could only read Jasmine's old blog! She was one of the OG stay at home daughters and even has a book about being one. ("Joyfully at Home") I read all of her stuff before and keep up with her a little bit now and I feel like she has just continued the same vision under a different guise. She also still has close ties to the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and Ladies Against Feminism. Ben re-tweeting her is status-quo for the Reformed bunch he (and Jeremy Vuolo) follow. This is actually one thing that has always been a mystery to me. JB married both Jessa and Jinger off to Reformed (and would-have-been VF followers) men, but married Jill to a Southern Baptist and Joy to an Independent Baptist.

I don't think JB understands the differences he probably has a checklist of things they need to believe like having lots of kids, Jesus is great, traditional gender roles. In other words basic Christian beliefs and more social policy then religious policy. 

13 hours ago, A Free Elf said:

I literally joined here just to weigh in on the pants, since I noticed no one has suggested this particular reason for the change, which I find very likely...

After a couple of C-sections, your body changes and what looked good on your body pre-baby doesn’t look the same on the post-baby body. I can personally relate. My style changed after 2 C-sections as well. I swore off all tight-fitting tops because of the flabby belly that never completely went away. It’s possble that Jill did the same and, at the same time, she discovered that loose fitting tops and skirts aren’t very cute together. Loose fitting tops look great with skinny jeans, though, and the high waisted skinnies are super flattering. You feel very secure and it just sucks that Mommy tummy right in! No one could blame her for that! 

I have a game. Let’s guess who will be next to burn their jean skirts in a giant heap. Jinger’s already on board, Jill was next, (also Sierra)...who will be the NEXT one to follow the trend?

My vote goes to Joy, because Jill did it and because she has to wear maternity tops, which look weird with skirts. I think no one would stand in her way. 

Joy might have a problem since the in laws have that Christian camp where they work. Those types of things usually have a very specific image to attract very specific customers. 

[Palimpsest]

6 hours ago, PainfullyAware said:

Why do I keep reading accounts of women who eacaped Gothard saying they were shamed for wearing pants on places like Homeschoolers Anonymous? That it was discouraged as an 'eye trap'?  Is it one of those things that what's written as a rule isn't what's actactually practiced by everyone? 

I believe Gothard originally required women to wear skirts at IBLP and ATI public events - @formergothardite would know for sure - but the definition of modesty and eye-traps when it came to pants was left up to the individual's "personal conviction."  So plenty of women and girls wore pants when not at HQ, on Journeys, or at Excel.  Some Gothardites are personally convicted to head-cover too.  The Duggars never went that far.

Way back when Michelle and Jim Bob originally talked about their personal convictions about clothing it was skirts-only for the girls and long pants only for the boys.  Covered from neck to below the knee for both.  The boys ran 5Ks in jeans, FFS.

In fact Josh was the first to break the Duggar clothing rules when he was spotted wearing shorts very soon after moving to DC.  This was well before the shit hit the fan about the molestations.

I don't remember much uproar about Josh's shorts, or anyone deciding that a glimpse of his knees indicated he was  taking a baby step away from extreme Fundamentalism.  He was spewing plenty of hatred at FRC, and he and Anna were still obviously keen on having as many children as God sent them.

Another aspect of this is that disgraced Bill Gothard is decidedly out of IBLP.   He has been dumped, and possibly some of the clothing rules have been relaxed with the new BOD.  I spotted some girls in pants at the spring Big Sandy Family Conference, and I doubt that would have happened before the Fall of BG.

[MoonFace]

12 hours ago, adidas said:

I wonder what the Duggar equivalent of ‘here, hold my beer’ would be?

Hold my bible and y'all watch this. 

[VineHeart137]

2 hours ago, Jess said:

Joy might have a problem since the in laws have that Christian camp where they work. Those types of things usually have a very specific image to attract very specific customers. 

The Fort Rock Family Camp website features pictures of women in pants and shorts. I don't think that would be a problem. I think the main thing that could hold Joy back from wearing pants is Austin's opinion.

[LovelyLuna]

wowzers!!! I picked Jill as my first in the Duggar forum after a hiatus and I am gifted with pants and a nose piercing?!?!  Rufus Bless! I know she’s still a hateful fundie, but I am gobsmacked.  I have also thoroughly enjoyed the thoughtful discussion on changing beliefs.  They are the reason I came to FJ.  

I see a lot of Jill in myself.  I used to be a huge people pleaser. I still get guilty when I put up acceptable boundaries.  I feel bad for her.  She seams like she is unhappy.  The thing is she’s not going to get better and the boys plus any future blessing are suffering for it.  I’m still sick from the photos of Sam’s arms bound.  Please send the boys to me,  I want children desperately and their hands and minds would be free to explore, in fact encouraged!  Sigh.... Fundamentalism sucks.

Edited to add I explained modesty and eye-traps regarding pants to Mr. Luna and he says, from a mans perspective that it is bullshit.  

[Audrey2]

1 hour ago, VineHeart137 said:

The Fort Rock Family Camp website features pictures of women in pants and shorts. I don't think that would be a problem. I think the main thing that could hold Joy back from wearing pants is Austin's opinion.

Would Austin's Mom and sister wear pants at Fort Rock? I'm thinking this might be a better indication of Joy will wear pants, based on those that work for/lead an event or company frequently dress differently than the clients.

[LovelyLuna]

I have a vague memory of Austin's sister in jeans during  “The World strictest Parents” episode.  They were doing maintenance around the camp. 

[finnlassie]

1 hour ago, LovelyLuna said:

I have a vague memory of Austin's sister in jeans during  “The World strictest Parents” episode.  They were doing maintenance around the camp. 

Oh wait what, which episode was this? I remember watching pretty much every episode, this is ringing bells but...

[Mayluka]

1 hour ago, finnlassie said:

Oh wait what, which episode was this? I remember watching pretty much every episode, this is ringing bells but...

Austin's family was featured on Season 1, Episode 8 of "World's Strictest Parents" in 2009.

[Mrs.Right]

On 11/30/2017 at 8:32 AM, onekidanddone said:

I while back I was in Target and saw a family of four kids.  The oldest could not have been more than 10 and she had a baby strapped to her chest. So very Duggar.

Geez. I wouldn’t trust my awkwardly growing 10 year old that trips over things to carry my baby. Plus, if that mom is already tired of holding babies at #4, it might be a sign to STOP having kids! 

On 11/30/2017 at 9:57 AM, singsingsing said:

I mean, I do give her credit for apparently learning how to do it right. That counts for something. 

Oh man, the rest of that photo, though. You've got Jill with, uh, whatever that is, Derick looking like he's itching to gtfo so he can get back on Twitter, Anna clinging to her disgusting husband, and Michelle doing her very best 'adoring gaze' as her headship addresses the masses like the he's Pope. (I have no idea what's actually happening in the photo, but damn.)

She looks like she’s praying to Lord GodBoober!

[Mrs.Right]

As cool as it is seeing Jill busting out rebellion against the Duggar Parental Units, I kind of have a heartbreaking suspicion this may be caused by an undiagnosed case of PPD. She’s had all this stuff fall on her and she hasn’t really lucked out in the husband/provider department. DD seems a little too into his tweets ever since Samuel was born. He’s doesn’t come off as the supportive husband/take the kids literally off his wife’s chest and give her a night off kind of guy. Plus seeing first hand how Jessa and Ben’s relationship is and maybe longing for a relationship like that. All the factors combined have made her a bit unstable looking to me. I could understand the pants, since Jinger wears them now, but this nose piercing screams something more. At least how I have always perceived Jilly Muffin. I hope I’m wrong!

[Irene]

26 minutes ago, Mrs.Right said:

As cool as it is seeing Jill busting out rebellion against the Duggar Parental Units, I kind of have a heartbreaking suspicion this may be caused by an undiagnosed case of PPD. She’s had all this stuff fall on her and she hasn’t really lucked out in the husband/provider department. DD seems a little too into his tweets ever since Samuel was born. He’s doesn’t come off as the supportive husband/take the kids literally off his wife’s chest and give her a night off kind of guy. Plus seeing first hand how Jessa and Ben’s relationship is and maybe longing for a relationship like that. All the factors combined have made her a bit unstable looking to me. I could understand the pants, since Jinger wears them now, but this nose piercing screams something more. At least how I have always perceived Jilly Muffin. I hope I’m wrong!

So you expect her do to a Britney Spears and shave of her hair then soon?  

[VBOY9977]

18 hours ago, Audrey2 said:

Would Austin's Mom and sister wear pants at Fort Rock? I'm thinking this might be a better indication of Joy will wear pants, based on those that work for/lead an event or company frequently dress differently than the clients.

Some pictures I found on Instagram where austin’s sister is wearing pants/leggings . You can see by the tagged location that one of the pictures is at fort rock. I think Joy could eventually wear jeans but it could take her a while like it took Jill

[JillyO]

7 hours ago, Mrs.Right said:

Geez. I wouldn’t trust my awkwardly growing 10 year old that trips over things to carry my baby. Plus, if that mom is  those parents are already tired of holding babies at #4, it might be a sign to STOP having kids!

Fixed that for you.

[VineHeart137]

2 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

Some pictures I found on Instagram where austin’s sister is wearing pants/leggings . You can see by the tagged location that one of the pictures is at fort rock. I think Joy could eventually wear jeans but it could take her a while like it took Jill

Is it just me or do all their heads look photoshopped in the first photo?

[Carm_88]

2 hours ago, VineHeart137 said:

Is it just me or do all their heads look photoshopped in the first photo?

There's something off about it. I'm not sure what it is. Maybe it's the combined head tilt. 

[FleeJanaFree]

How many times did Jill say she wasn't sure about Derrick? I only watch clips here and there. If true, that definitely reminds me of the s'morton girl whose husband is in jail now, trusting her dad to find her prince.

i was thinking about something last night. These girls are all required to 'keep sweet'. What's the rationale then for keeping sweet when it involves a lie- breaking an actual biblical commandment? "I'm personally convicted to wear skirts only" "I've forgiven Josh" "I'm fine sharing a bedroom with eleventy children as I near 30" etc. 

not saying these are necessary actual lies the girls have told, (idon't know the inner workings of their brains), but plausible enough  to make an example of going along with the party line even if it's a lie. 

[jqlgoblue]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I think one or both of them is depressed. I've always thought Derick was first due to his weight loss, etc. ... but maybe it is/was Jill w/ PPD the first time around. It's pretty common if one partner is depressed for the other to become so as well. Depressed people often briefly feel better by doing something new or different (new experiences, social activities, nose rings...). They can also be co-dependent, each looking to the other to make them happy. 

As for lies... I don't think the view keeping sweet as a lie. It's more like all people are born sinners (males and females for different reasons...) and it is expected to be a constant challenge they will overcome with the help of Jesus. If they were to lie, then through their personal relationship, Jesus will forgive them. As he has forgiven our current president for his affairs and other sexual adventures.

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, jqlgoblue said:

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I think one or both of them is depressed.

He's not too depressed to tweet.  I can see why Jill might be depressed, though.  Times have been challenging and even she must realize, on some level, that her so-called Prince Charming wasn't a frog but a douchebag.

[singsingsing]

8 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

He's not too depressed to tweet.  I can see why Jill might be depressed, though.  Times have been challenging and even she must realize, on some level, that her so-called Prince Charming wasn't a frog but a douchebag.

Tweeting is not a reliable way to gauge depression.

There's literally no way for us to know if they're depressed unless they come out and say it. Nothing in their actions, photos, etc. really points strongly to it, in my opinion, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Derick seems miserable, but I think he would seem substantially less miserable to people who share his political/religious beliefs.

I would be depressed as hell if I were either of them, but I'm not them.

[Dandruff]

8 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Tweeting is not a reliable way to gauge depression.

Of course not - it was snark.

 

[Mrs.Right]

10 hours ago, JillyO said:

Fixed that for you.

I guess I was generalizing families like the Duggars where the Dad’s don’t hold kids. They’re just the sperm donors. The women do all the work. 

[Seculardaisy]

17 hours ago, Mrs.Right said:

Geez. I wouldn’t trust my awkwardly growing 10 year old that trips over things to carry my baby. Plus, if that mom is already tired of holding babies at #4, it might be a sign to STOP having kids! 

She looks like she’s praying to Lord GodBoober!

My nine year old carries our one year old around. She likes doing it. She’s never asked to baby wear but if she did, I would think it’s adorable, and let her try. I don’t see the issue. 

[KnittingOwl]

7 hours ago, Seculardaisy said:

My nine year old carries our one year old around. She likes doing it. She’s never asked to baby wear but if she did, I would think it’s adorable, and let her try. I don’t see the issue. 

I’d be concerned about the impact of the weight on the child carrying the baby. I think kids are only supposed to carry 10% of their body weight when they carry backpacks. It’d be one thing to do it for a few minutes in the house, but it would be another thing entirely to be carrying your sibling around Target.