Dillards 46: Now with Pants and a Possible Nose Piercing

[Carm_88]

7 minutes ago, Sky with diamonds said:

Knock me over with a feather. 

Gotta wonder if she did it and wear pants to deflect from Derick? 

Ohhh, I'd be thinking so!  She's going to need a lot of pants in lots of colours and styles to deflect from that lump of hate. 

[finnlassie]

9 minutes ago, Sky with diamonds said:

Knock me over with a feather. 

Gotta wonder if she did it and wear pants to deflect from Derick? 

I think Derick's totally fine with the pants and would even dare to say that he might've encouraged her to do it. Though it seems like the hemline's still the popular choice.

This or I'm not understanding your message right. English be second langwadge.

[mizandry]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

I said this all before in a Jinger thread. But here it is again:

The pants are a big deal and require a change in belief. Everything in fundamentalist and evangelical culture has spiritual and moral implications. Skirts are not a preference for the skirts only crowd. They are a conviction. They are necessary to hide the butt and crotch thus protecting men from lust. It is about sexual morality. When a Duggar daughter decides they are okay, she is changing her view on a matter of sexual morality. And when she goes out in a pair of pants and no men fall over in the throes of lust or even appear to notice, she is going to internalize that Jim Bob and Michelle were wrong about that. The next question will be what else are they wrong about?

When you have never existed in an environment where every single thing is a matter of spiritual concern and morality, it can be hard to comprehend. But that is the fundagelical way. How you make cursive letters is a spiritual debate in that world. Nail polish shades are a spiritual debate in that world. It never ends. Choosing to wear pants likely required a spiritual decision for them which is why we didn’t see them do it instantly when out of their parents‘ house. If it was all The husbands’s decision,, it would have happened sooner, too

THIS. Can't be stressed enough. It's what I think every time folks try to insinuate we're making a bigger deal out of this than is warranted. It's a tiring assumption to make every time people express any sort of excitement or hope about these changes, or acknowledge them at all. Obviously they're still fundie, but that's not really the point of the excitement for most of us (from what I've gathered). I haven't seen anyone saying or suggesting that the addition of jeans or a nose piercing means they're no longer fundie -- we're saying that, when these things happen, it's a sign they're challenging aspects of their upbringing and the ideas they had been promoting on television for their parents on 12312323424 Kids and Counting TH segments. That's a really big step worth reflecting on and being hopeful about. These kids have been subjected to various forms of physical, spiritual, and psychological abuse in addition to being exploited for television; the idea that any of them would stray from the indoctrination of their parents especially under the public eye is kind of amazing to me... especially with Jill, who seems to both admire and greatly fear her father. It must take a lot of courage to make these steps.

[December]

3 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Does it really matter if they wear pants, get piercings, drink alcohol and tattoo their entire bodies, if they're still espousing all the same hateful, ignorant, oppressive beliefs?

They got rid of the frumpers ages ago, and that didn't change anything except helping them appear more mainstream and easygoing. I'd wager any other changes in physical appearance will be along the same lines.

[mizandry]

1 minute ago, December said:

They got rid of the frumpers ages ago, and that didn't change anything except helping them appear more mainstream and easygoing. I'd wager any other changes in physical appearance will be along the same lines.

I think the difference here is that Jim Bob and Michelle made that choice for their family brand, whereas Jinger and Jill had to decide independent of their parents' convictions to make the style choices they have. I can't say anyone knows the true motivation for these changes, myself included, but I do think it's a significant baby step.

[singsingsing]

Just now, December said:

They got rid of the frumpers ages ago, and that didn't change anything except helping them appear more mainstream and easygoing. I'd wager any other changes in physical appearance will be along the same lines.

Exactly. It's not that the changes are totally insignificant, or that no one's allowed to think they're positive or worth being hopeful about - I mean, hope away! But I absolutely do think that some people are making a far bigger deal of the pants/piercing than is actually warranted. The question isn't so much 'Is is significant that Jill is straying from her parents' ideals' as, 'Is Jill actually straying that much from her parents' ideals?' I would say no, but obviously others will disagree!

I'm not trying to hand slap people or rain on anyone's parade when I question whether these changes are actually all that meaningful, just trying to point out that this is not the first time they've made significant wardrobe changes, or strayed from the rules they were brought up with. Maybe they are on a slow and steady path away from fundamentalism, or maybe not. Sometimes people go a little more liberal and then revert and overcompensate by becoming even more hardcore conservative, too. Time will tell.

[friendofgreen]

I'm not entirely sure it means anything, other than she wanted to try it out.  I am happy to see she's doing it though. 

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut

trying it out is still more than they've ever been able to do before. this is something that most (non-fundies) have been doing since they were old enough to have free will 

i bet the jimbo puts jill back on blanket training 

[HarryPotterFan]

1 hour ago, PumaLover said:

I'm a graphic designer and that is the most awful font. It's not even legible!!

Ooh, you'll appreciate this/I need someone to complain to who will understand. I was looking at the PDF of an old slide set at work, and the kerning! Oh lord Rufus almighty, the kerning. It was painful. Some letters were squished together and practically on top of each other, then other letters in the same word were normally spaced. No, just no, how do you even mess up that badly? And, on another note, I'm involved in this community sports league, and one team chose a font size for their jerseys where the 1's look like 7's, and you have to study them carefully to tell the difference. Not the best choice, especially in a fast moving game.

But um, Jill. Yes. I hope she sends her kids to real school. Even if it's some fundie school, they'd still learn more and learn more about accountability, structure, etc than SOTDRT.

[Rachel333]

I think there's a huge difference between changing from the frumpers to more modern looking skirts and changing from skirts to pants. The frumpers were never really a religious conviction, that was just the style at the time in the fundamentalist subculture, so changing to a different style of skirt was no big deal. Wearing skirts rather than pants, however, was/is an actual belief they held. Deviating from that, while not at all indicative that they're leaving fundamentalism altogether, isn't just a mere change in style.

[KelseyAnn]

7 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I don't see Jinger getting a tat, she is far to prim and proper, there is something very prissy about her. I'm not meaning this in any derogatory way at all, she just strikes me as that overly feminine woman who while nice and enjoyable to hang around always has her hair done and her head band shoes and sweater always match. If that makes sense.

I always thought Jessa was the prim and proper one. 

[Palimpsest]

On 11/28/2017 at 12:52 PM, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

Definitely a nose ring. It’s not a rebellion; the Bible lists nose rings in examples of beautification. And it’s not unheard of for fundie gals to get them: Kelly BB, Jasmine BH, Esther ZL, Lauren Z. I doubt JB and Michelle are wringing their hands over it. They might not love it, but that’s a fairly normal parental reaction. 

Yes indeed.  The Duggars believe in "leave and cleave" too.  So nose jewelry isn't unheard of in Fundieland.  Neither are Jill's pants wildly exciting to me.  She is no longer convicted to being skirts only. 

I just dropped by to alert anyone interested in people who have actually escaped Fundamentalism to an interesting thread.  Cynthia Jeub has been talking with us over on QoS. 

Now Cynthia has tossed away the indoctrination of her parental units and is able to talk about how difficult leaving really is for some people, and what challenges she faced and is facing.  She is a very interesting person with a whole lot of courage and perseverance.

 

 

 

[Sky with diamonds]

2 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Ohhh, I'd be thinking so!  She's going to need a lot of pants in lots of colours and styles to deflect from that lump of hate. 

I won't forget what a POS Derick is. Jill could have quints, and I won't forget.

[SapphireSlytherin]

49 minutes ago, Sky with diamonds said:

Jill could have quints

...at home, with Joy serving as baby-catcher, after 250 hours of labor.

[JoiseyGoil]

So would Ben being outspoken anti-Trump, critical of Republicans, and anti-white supremacy be considered a more significant change than Jill or Jinger’s changes?

[SassyPants]

23 hours ago, Mlissmartin said:

I wonder if they would have come along this far in how they dress if they had never been on t.v.

Funding would have been an issue-  I doubt enough cool, trendy, fashionable stuff ends up in Arkansas 2nd hand stores to clothe 19 and counting.

44 minutes ago, JoiseyGoil said:

So would Ben being outspoken anti-Trump, critical of Republicans, and anti-white supremacy be considered a more significant change than Jill or Jinger’s changes?

IMO, no, because Ben has not been stewing in the Gothard-Duggar-JB bouillon for his entire being. He might have always leaned a little less towards full on zealotry and just played nice-nice to secure Jessa D.

[Sky with diamonds]

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

...at home, with Joy serving as baby-catcher, after 250 hours of labor.

Having sister mom's to raise the kids. Pants, nose ring, I don't think much will ever change for Jill.

[Knight of Ni]

When people ask me why I don’t have tattoos I ask them “would you put a bumper sticker on a Ferrari?”

[immodest_countenance]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Funding would have been an issue-  I doubt enough cool, trendy, fashionable stuff ends up in Arkansas 2nd hand stores to clothe 19 and counting.

IMO, no, because Ben has not been stewing in the Gothard-Duggar-JB bouillon for his entire being. He might have always leaned a little less towards full on zealotry and just played nice-nice to secure Jessa D.

I disagree. Ben actually speaking out against Trump, racial inequality, aka going against the status quo and actually showing some empathy, critical thinking, and maturation imply a lot more growth and potential than some loose jeans do. Maybe I'm biased and hopeful because it reminds me of my journey from a follow the crowd conservative to a rebel liberal back in my early teens. Difference is that I had Colbert and Stewart, I don't think Ben got that opportunity. 

I think it's also important to distinguish our criticism. Are we criticizing the weird, patriarchal, messed up fertility cult that's been normalized for a general audience, or are we criticising mainstream conservative, evangelical christian beliefs in America. Don't get me wrong, BOTH absolutely have their fair share of criticism. So don't get me wrong a nose peircing or pants might indicate they won't subjugate their own families to the cult they grew up in, but it doesn't mean that their core beliefs have gotten any less ugly or problematic. 

 

[calimojo]

8 hours ago, cascarones said:

I'm curious how the current surge of sexual harassment firings and #MeToo movement is affecting the Fundamentalist view of sexual morality and the burden being placed on women. I can speculate for some it's got to reinforce the idea that men can't control themselves, but for others are they starting to think and see that men can control themselves and when they can't the men are being held responsible.  We know ATI/IBLP has had their own share of sex scandals, so I'm unsure how much of an impact what's going on right now could be making on people who still believe even after Gothard's oust. 

It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the issues even if it as small as realizing pants offer more protection from unwanted groping, like hands being put up a skirt (one more reason not to miss the NYC metro). 

I think the current onslaught of sexual harassment issues, etc, just serve to prove JB right that women should not be in the work force.  And women need to stay under the umbrella of protection of the headship.  I have no doubt that all of these situations are being used as real time lessons for the kids old enough to understand them. 

Just like I firmly believe that Josh's sins were turned into a lesson about leaving the umbrella, going out in to the "world".  Fundies are very fearful of 'the world' and wordliness.  It is an insult or judgment if they say someone is very much 'of the world'. 

This is why I fear that the Josh situation may have made things more restrictive for the kids because I am sure that JB and M lectured about what happens when kids don't follow their parents.  Josh was in the world, and he was tempted and he was tempted by satan, because he strayed too far from his father's guidance. 

 

Remember,  they were far more upset about the infidelity than the molestations.  Josh was under his dads umbrella of protection then, so those crimes were framed as 'curiosity' or lack of control and not truly evill. 

 

And one more thought.  I was reading somewhere about the Cabin treatment programs that the IBLP families would send their wayward kids to and how these kids were abused, humiliated, forced into slavelike labor, etc.  One of the these 'cabin' programs was in Kansas or Oklahoma where I think Josh may have been sent after he confessed to molesting his sisters. 

Reading the accounts of people who were sent to these rehabilitation programs was harrowing.  If Josh was sent to a place like that, he was likely tormented, neglected, humiliated, abused.  Now some of you may think he got what he deserved, but here he was a confused and sick teen, and instead of real treatment, he was possibly sent somewhere that just inflicted more scars and mixed up ideology.  Even if he didn't go there, he might have gone to a similar place where he was mistreated.  I am not trying to drum up sympathy for him, but I guess, I am just constantly amazed at the truly hideous decisions that JB and M made as parents over the years and yet they are revered as mother of the year, and held up as parenting examples.

[JillyO]

10 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Oh... 'rest in the storm'... I was trying to figure out what that last word was. My brain was like, 'Rest in the Hrurna?'

I almost choked on the whole mini candy cane I had just shoved into my mouth. Warn a girl next time, will ya?

[potato]

Jill posted yet another picture on Instagram and she 110% most definitely has a nose ring.  Photo under the spoiler.

 

Spoiler

 

[TuringMachine]

8 minutes ago, potato said:

Jill posted yet another picture on Instagram and she 110% most definitely has a nose ring.  Photo under the spoiler.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I'm honestly more surprised that she figured out how to wear a baby without smothering him.

[Mlissmartin]

26 minutes ago, potato said:

Jill posted yet another picture on Instagram and she 110% most definitely has a nose ring.  Photo under the spoiler.

 

  Hide contents

 

I LOVE that she is babywearing

[PainfullyAware]

To me the pants and piercings signify a crack in Gothardism rather than a departure from fundamentalism. IBLP rules were specific and adopted by a subculture of fundies. Jeremy and Ben represent less legalistic (rule oriented) theology while still maintaining the core beliefs of evangelicals  (Jesus as personal saviour, literal Bible reading, social conservatism etc.). The duggar women are transitioning out of Gothard  adherence and into a more general fundie culture. They are generally Baptist in their beliefs I believe (less clear on denominations of fundamentalist evangelicals).

[Iamtheway]

15 hours ago, PumaLover said:

I'm a graphic designer and that is the most awful font. It's not even legible!!

Fellow graphic designer here. I agree it's not very good but it does say it's her handwriting so it's not a font. She could have written it better though. We engraved our wedding rings in our own handwriting and I did very, very, very many drafts for those words. And it's on the inside of the ring so not as visible as a tattoo. 

14 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Ooh, you'll appreciate this/I need someone to complain to who will understand. I was looking at the PDF of an old slide set at work, and the kerning! Oh lord Rufus almighty, the kerning. It was painful. Some letters were squished together and practically on top of each other, then other letters in the same word were normally spaced. No, just no, how do you even mess up that badly? And, on another note, I'm involved in this community sports league, and one team chose a font size for their jerseys where the 1's look like 7's, and you have to study them carefully to tell the difference. Not the best choice, especially in a fast moving game.

I feel your pain! Sometimes it's a curse to have the graphic eye. 

9 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

When people ask me why I don’t have tattoos I ask them “would you put a bumper sticker on a Ferrari?”

I totally would. But then again I only had one wish last time we bought a new car. That is was a safe one. And preferably orange. It's gray.