Gwen Shamblin: Skinny for Jesus

[RFSurvivor_2]

1 hour ago, quiversR4hunting said:

That is what I find odd too. The secrecy and the prosperity type gospel I wonder if they think death is because a person is bad. 

As for the news of death spreading like wildfire, in my mind it should so friends and family can come console and support each other. 

Right? Well...

It’s hard to talk about this side of the church (due to personal experiences) so bare with me while I try to explain from my perspective.

Firstly this is going to sound odd so bare with me when I say this:

Deaths are RARE within RF.

Out of the 20 year history of the cult, I personally know of 8 RF members who have died while still in the church. This does not include miscarriages and still borns, which do occur but are very rare in the cult.

I personally believe that death and funerals are hush-hush because of what I said before; families have the option to have their loved one’s funeral ceremony in secret, which all that I know of have opted for. In conjunction with that fact that...well, an RF member’s death isn’t really talked about in the cult. It just, isn’t. 

I personally believe it’s out of respect and because of its rarity (no one not really knowing how to deal with it). I personally know of no proper procedure in place when dealing with death in the cult aside from what I shared in this thread above. A lot of members do approach and reach out to the families affected by their loved one passing, however at the end of it all, it just isn’t about spoken much publicly. That is of course if Gwen decides to have a sermon about said individual in which once again, the member would have to be quite prominent in the church to have such an “honor” bestowed upon him/her and his/her family.

Out of my very long tenure in the church, I never was able to put my finger on it. I never dug deep enough  or gained any noteworthy insight on this while I was a member. It’s definitley a cultural (pun intended) thing for sure. But yeah, now that I think of it....this is odd!

These are great questions! This discussion has me thinking deeply about a lot of elements in the church that I used to see as “normal” (which clearly wasn’t).

I think @RFsurvivor would have better insight on this subject seeing as she was in the church longer than I have, and has more personal experience with this. 

[luv2laugh]

That’s very weird. Could it have something to do with not wanting to be engaging with the member’s family that are non-remnant members? @RFSurvivor_2 @RFsurvivor

[LovelyLuna]

What happens when a kid doesn’t drink the koolaid?  I would not have done well in this cult.  No color, no creativity; I was a artsy goth kid that hated life.  I would have had such scorn for the hitler sorority youth group.  I snarked on regular Evangelical Christian youth groups at 13.  Now I have mermaid hair thats buzed on one side and wear rainbows and colorful outfits with crazy print.  What happens when you out grow a glue stick? 

[Florita]

6 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

Going very carefully to births in Remnant, what are the birthweights like? I would suspect on the low end, especially in the more 'successful' members.

I was thinking that too, but then I know some women who had extreme morning sickness the whole 40 weeks, even losing some weight, but still having 8 or 9 lbs babies. BUT I wonder about women with extremely low weight and amenorrhea causing infertility.  Is amenorrhea a goal in WD/RF? And what is Gwen approved contraception? I think she'd be anti hormonal b/c weight gain and b/c it is a medicine.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

@RFsurvivor 1&2 we love that you're here and taking so much time to answer our question.

To which end I have more 

Has there ever been an instance where a child was not "rushed" by the RF Youth Group Pan-Hellenic Society?  (Whoever likened it to sorority rush is so right.)  Is every 13-year old accepted and they just pretend the kids are specially chosen -- or it there really a nomination/acceptance process and some kids are left out and not chosen?

RF funerals.  Is the small number of funerals party because of the relatively young ages of RF members coupled with the extreme secrecy?  Is it possible there have been more deaths, but they have been hidden?  What about members who don't live in Nashville?

Were you all in RF from childhood or young teens onward? Was RF all you knew or did you have a life before RF?

Do you find you're still "de-programming" yourselves? Realizing all the time that things/ideas you thought were completely normal and mainstream aren't?

Is there a secret group of ex-RFers who help member leave and then get adjusted to life outside the cult?

Do RF members watch the news, keep up with current affairs and vote?  I can imagine if they can only read Gwen's books and listen to Michael's music that TV news and newspapers are seriously discouraged if not forbidden.  Do members watch TV, or even own a TV?

Edited to add: 

Do RF members go on vacation -- the family beach trip or Disney World, or .....?. A trip that is not part of a RF activity and out there in "the world" where RFers might see and talk with non-RF people? 

Actually -- do RF members ever speak to non-RF people except in the most superficial way -- e.g. thank to the waitron who delivers your meal?

[RFsurvivor]

On 7/25/2018 at 1:45 AM, Hane said:

Did anyone else look at the Remnant Wedding posts? Front and center on each page is its “color scheme.” All of the color schemes seem to be neutral pastels, like beiges and grays. Makes me wonder whether those are Gwen’s favorite colors and thus the only ones permitted.

Don’t even get me started on wedding colors. The bride and groom don’t get much say in anything. We had to submit color ideas and go with whatever the wedding committee and Gwen wanted. And if you had a wedding around same time as another, you wouldn’t be allowed to have similar colors. 

On 7/25/2018 at 12:32 PM, smittykins said:

So you have to be officially accepted into the youth group?  That’s just messed up(in every church I’ve been to that had a youth group, all you had to do was show up).

This is a new thing since I left. This weird “rush” but I doubt you have to do anything. Maybe you have to be baptized before hand but i can’t be sure. Based on the time of year, it’s probably right before Pentecost which RF uses to do “youth confirmations” for youth who turned 13 since the last Pentecost. 

On 7/25/2018 at 1:30 PM, sajetime said:

It would seem that way. From what I've seen, Gwen has a certain aesthetic when it comes to fashion/decor and her followers -- either willingly or forcibly -- follow it, and it goes beyond the weddings. You won't see too many bright colors and hardly any patterns in their clothing; most stick to white/black/ecru/pastels. Women carry crossbody bags, because Gwen always does. And there is little individualism encouraged or tolerated. Every church service, Gwen's grandchildren and even her grown children are dressed to match her. There's a color palette for every event.

In Remnant, homes usually have a minimalist antique shabby chic/rustic elegant vibe -- lots of white/ecru, distressed wood, crystal chandeliers and silver serving pieces with not a lot of artwork.

We were taught to never use more than 3 colors in our outfit at one time by both Gwen and Elizabeth...

[RFsurvivor]

On 7/25/2018 at 9:40 PM, WorseThan1Thinks said:

When I went through the long painful process of losing my spouse to Remnant, one of the MANY things I saw were all the lies.  Lies from Remnant leaders, Gwen herself, and of course my spouse.  Whenever forced to defend/protect Gwen or Remnant or their actions, I got the impression anything goes.  And lies were perfectly fine then.  So casually told, it seemed second nature.

@RFsurvivor, @RFSurvivor_2 Can you shed light on the attitude taken when defending Gwen and/or Remnant in regards to little white lies, stretching the truth, to full fledged lies to your face?  And, related, how they ABSOLUTELY DEMONIZE people they don't like (critics, those who left, etc).  I saw many examples of this across many different people who left Remnant, but their spouse (now ex-spouse) stayed in.  (e.g.  Multiple examples of a person who left Remnant that was being abused, but somehow Gwen/Remnant would turn this completely around and demonize the actual victim who left Remnant and the abuser (still in Remnant) was so sweet and innocent and gentle, etc.

This one is hard because when you are so throughly brain washed it doesn’t feel like lying or demonizing. Since leaving, I have apologized to people who I was awful to when they left the church. I didn’t see how terrible I was at the time because I was so sure I was right and following God’s will. You think you are following the truth and you think how could they not want this life giving truth! It’s hard to express how deeply engrained the need to protect the church and the teachings gets after years of exposure. 

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

That’s very weird. Could it have something to do with not wanting to be engaging with the member’s family that are non-remnant members? @RFSurvivor_2 @RFsurvivor

Possibly. But like @RFSurvivor_2 said, there were such few funerals, I don’t even think RF knew how they wanted to handle funerals. 

1 hour ago, LovelyLuna said:

What happens when a kid doesn’t drink the koolaid?  I would not have done well in this cult.  No color, no creativity; I was a artsy goth kid that hated life.  I would have had such scorn for the hitler sorority youth group.  I snarked on regular Evangelical Christian youth groups at 13.  Now I have mermaid hair thats buzed on one side and wear rainbows and colorful outfits with crazy print.  What happens when you out grow a glue stick? 

Due to the environment of the cult, those who don’t drink the koolaide as you put it tend to be loners and in the outside circle. Many times they would not be accepted by other youths due to being different. 

51 minutes ago, Florita said:

I was thinking that too, but then I know some women who had extreme morning sickness the whole 40 weeks, even losing some weight, but still having 8 or 9 lbs babies. BUT I wonder about women with extremely low weight and amenorrhea causing infertility.  Is amenorrhea a goal in WD/RF? And what is Gwen approved contraception? I think she'd be anti hormonal b/c weight gain and b/c it is a medicine.

Oh you don’t talk about contraception at all in RF. It’s also taboo to be on BC before you are married since sex before marriage means your going to Hell and sex is the only reason you would need BC according to RF. 

[RFsurvivor]

32 minutes ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

@RFsurvivor 1&2 we love that you're here and taking so much time to answer our question.

To which end I have more 

Has there ever been an instance where a child was not "rushed" by the RF Youth Group Pan-Hellenic Society?  (Whoever likened it to sorority rush is so right.)  Is every 13-year old accepted and they just pretend the kids are specially chosen -- or it there really a nomination/acceptance process and some kids are left out and not chosen?

RF funerals.  Is the small number of funerals party because of the relatively young ages of RF members coupled with the extreme secrecy?  Is it possible there have been more deaths, but they have been hidden?  What about members who don't live in Nashville?

Were you all in RF from childhood or young teens onward? Was RF all you knew or did you have a life before RF?

Do you find you're still "de-programming" yourselves? Realizing all the time that things/ideas you thought were completely normal and mainstream aren't?

Is there a secret group of ex-RFers who help member leave and then get adjusted to life outside the cult?

Do RF members watch the news, keep up with current affairs and vote?  I can imagine if they can only read Gwen's books and listen to Michael's music that TV news and newspapers are seriously discouraged if not forbidden.  Do members watch TV, or even own a TV?

Edited to add: 

Do RF members go on vacation -- the family beach trip or Disney World, or .....?. A trip that is not part of a RF activity and out there in "the world" where RFers might see and talk with non-RF people? 

Actually -- do RF members ever speak to non-RF people except in the most superficial way -- e.g. thank to the waitron who delivers your meal?

The rush thing is newer and new since I left so I don’t know much about it. But I would guess it’s all for show. 

I joined RF when I was a preteen and it became my normal so quickly. I was one of the few who did have outside/previous life but it always was a smaller part of my life with RF first.

The de programming is so real!!! I will say side comments and friends will give me looks because whatever I said was super weird  also how I look at situations and life in general. I don’t know what real normal is. 

I was lucky because I had @RFSurvivor_2 to help but everyone’s journey is different. 

Most members don’t keep up with the news. It was sad how completely clueless many of them were about the world around them.

TVs were allowed but most people watched RF material and minimal non-RF material.

as tor vacation, many tend to travel with other RF members for vacation.

how people talked with non RF members was more of a personal thing  

 

[Ozlsn]

6 hours ago, RFSurvivor_2 said:

This does not include miscarriages and still borns, which do occur but are very rare in the cult.

Stillborn babies I can see that you would hear about but miscarriages are often not talked about in the mainstream world either. Here quite often you only start finding out that other women you know had miscarriages after you had one - that's when they start talking about it to you. Not to say that miscarriages may not still be rare in that group, just that I suspect there are probably more than are talked about.

 

[sajetime]

10 hours ago, RFsurvivor said:

@RFSurvivor_2

Most members don’t keep up with the news. It was sad how completely clueless many of them were about the world around them. 

TVs were allowed but most people watched RF material and minimal non-RF material.

as tor vacation, many tend to travel with other RF members for vacation.

how people talked with non RF members was more of a personal thing  

 

I have visited the church and I met with a few Remnant members who lived in my state. I found it really uncomfortable trying to converse with them. They're  not really interested in you personally, and they're not interested in discussing worldly things (that said, many have super nice homes, nice cars, etc.). To a non-member, they only seem to want to talk about about the church, and quoting/referencing Gwen and "what God's doing in your life," "what God's showing you" and aspects of the Weigh Down program, "testimonies" about the church and the message. (And then there's the Remnant lingo ... everything is "praise God," "put it into practice," "keep your focus up," "dying to self," "under authority," "going all in.")

And no wonder, because it seems members are kept busy with the work of the "kingdom" — two services a week, classes held in homes and online, volunteering for the various ministries, church-centered homeschooling/Remnant Academy/church camp and fellowship events — that they don't have time for much outside the church.

[JermajestyDuggar]

So I was looking at some of the Remnant Folks and I came across two different couples that moved to Tennessee to be closer to the cult. What’s crazy is that you can see the transition on their Facebook timeline. They dressed differently before they became cult members. One woman had green hair and lived in Canada before they found Gwen. Now she has very ordinary hair blonde hair and seems to no longer wear her nose ring. I can’t imagine moving to another country for a cult. 

[Soulhuntress]

20 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

@RFsurvivor 1&2 we love that you're here and taking so much time to answer our question.

To which end I have more 

Has there ever been an instance where a child was not "rushed" by the RF Youth Group Pan-Hellenic Society?  (Whoever likened it to sorority rush is so right.)  Is every 13-year old accepted and they just pretend the kids are specially chosen -- or it there really a nomination/acceptance process and some kids are left out and not chosen?

Quote

BIGS & LITTLES

Now, in 2016, a new element has been added to Pentecost, and specifically to Confirmation.  It’s called “YOUTH RUSH!!!”  Every single person who gets confirmed, in town and out of town, inherits a BIG brother or BIG sister.  I have the amazing privilege of being a BIG sister. The BIGs are essentially teenagers that have been through confirmation and have decided to live for God but get to help the new youth through any testing, and to help teach them the ropes. It serves as a welcome into the youth group. Everyone who is getting confirmed is secretly assigned two BIGs and a grand BIG. A grand BIG is typically a youth leader and is there to help the BIGs and LITTLEs with any questions they have and to serve kind of as a parent. They have more wisdom if it’s necessary.

I wonder if the less special (not the leaders kids) get less swag and decorations?  Noting all the banners have the same fonts and design.  

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

20 hours ago, RFsurvivor said:

We were taught to never use more than 3 colors in our outfit at one time by both Gwen and Elizabeth...

What as the reason?  And where was this taught -- Miss Gwen's School of Manners and Remnant Fashion Rules?  Is this one of the pronouncements you had to follow because you had to be under Gwen's authority?

I realized the other day what bothered me about the RF wedding pictures.  The brides and bridesmaids seem to be wearing the same dresses. I don't mean they look similar, I mean the exact same dress,  There seem to be about 5 different styles of gowns and bridesmaids dresses and the brides/ maids look to be wearing and  re-wearing the dresses from wedding to wedding, 

Am I imagining things?  I envision a giant storage room of dresses and the bride and attendants are told to pick theirs from the racks.  Only sizes 00  - 6 are available though,.  The wedding colors for every wedding nearly all the same, so the bridesmaids dresses could be used again and again. 

[sajetime]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

So I was looking at some of the Remnant Folks and I came across two different couples that moved to Tennessee to be closer to the cult. What’s crazy is that you can see the transition on their Facebook timeline. They dressed differently before they became cult members. One woman had green hair and lived in Canada before they found Gwen. Now she has very ordinary hair blonde hair and seems to no longer wear her nose ring. I can’t imagine moving to another country for a cult. 

I know the couple you are referring to. They both are tatted up and they both wear concealing long sleeves/pants at all times now so they don’t show. Gwen doesn’t do tattoos.

[SJWaterford]

1 hour ago, sajetime said:

I know the couple you are referring to. They both are tatted up and they both wear concealing long sleeves/pants at all times now so they don’t show. Gwen doesn’t do tattoos.

Makes me want to go out and get a few more tattoos that I can't cover up. I am def one of those people who is going to do the opposite of what you tell me to, if you make it a command. 

Tonight they are getting ready for the wedding of the 18 year old this weekend. Lots of cars at the Day's mansion. 

 

I am ashamed to say that we get tremendous satisfaction and therapy if we flip the church and Gwens house off when we have to go by them. 

[Mrsquigs]

Thank you for all the information. I am learning so much.

I read on this thread that Gwen’s wedding is August 18th. Does anyone have any more information? I wonder who will perform the ceremony?

Do you think she will follow in the most recent Rememant second marriage and go all out?

 

[Granwych]

Can a former member explain to me what is a "covenant marriage" and is it any different from a conventional/church/civil marriage?

Thanks so much!

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

16 hours ago, Granwych said:

Can a former member explain to me what is a "covenant marriage" and is it any different from a conventional/church/civil marriage?

Thanks so much!

 

 

Covenant marriages by law are only offered in Arkansas, Arizona, and Louisiana. So Gwen isn’t talking about one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_marriage

[akinom]

I am mesmerized by this diet/cult! I haven’t been this entertained by a fundie in years! I especially love the 90’s Gwen with oversized sweater and that side parted bob everyone had.

[Granwych]

16 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Covenant marriages by law are only offered in Arkansas, Arizona, and Louisiana. So Gwen isn’t talking about one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_marriage

Thanks!  I guess that Gwen's form covenant marriage is one of her own concept and germane to RF members.

[RFSurvivor_2]

On 7/27/2018 at 1:18 AM, Ozlsn said:

Stillborn babies I can see that you would hear about but miscarriages are often not talked about in the mainstream world either. Here quite often you only start finding out that other women you know had miscarriages after you had one - that's when they start talking about it to you. Not to say that miscarriages may not still be rare in that group, just that I suspect there are probably more than are talked about.

 

I see your point however this is Remnant Fellowship we are talking bout here. Miscarriages are not casually talked about in RF but at the same time, it isn't taboo for women to be upfront about it (which a surprisingly large amount were).  Miscarriages are indeed painful, even in the Remnant. However Gwen and her leadership has (over time) conditioned women in RF to being more open about their experiences in this subject matter. Historically there been quite a few notable miscarriage related public "testimonies" on Saturday sermons as well as private gatherings from women discussing (in detail at times) their miscarriage, what "God has shown them" how much they "thank leadership for their wisdom" etc.

Its odd..

[RFSurvivor_2]

2 hours ago, Granwych said:

Thanks!  I guess that Gwen's form covenant marriage is one of her own concept and germane to RF members.

This is correct.

Remnant Fellowship "covenant marriages" are amalgamations of conventional American and Ancient Jewish marriage ceremonies. RF marriages are centered around their god, Gwen's teachings (and elements of the bible) and their church (Gwen, leaders and the congregation). Nearly every wedding has a sermon where Gwen speaks about many topics that include how "God has brought these young people together". She (cleverly) ties the church, their god and (subtle or openly) she and her leadership to the success of the couple. She praises the couple during the ceremony, yet she somehow always makes it about the church and her. Even though she makes many references to her god, his wisdom, how he brought the couple(s) together, the details are always met with "I or we did this" undertones. "Look at where God brought you.", "The saints (one of the many things RF members call themselves) put together such a beautiful ceremony." so on and so fourth.

Gwen's sermon also and often involves praising past marriages and couples that were married before the current couple getting married. The couples she praises current members of the church. She obviously doesn't acknowledge couples who have left. The sermon usually includes a cheesy RF Wedding recap video where they highlight previous marriages (of those who are still in the church) as well as the current couple(briefly). These highlights involve showing images/highlights of the church and small snippets of Gwen's sermons and such. From my perspective, I have always viewed it like a wedding "hype" video before the sermon. Like an announcer announcing a boxer before going into the ring. Unfortunately this video in itself sets the precedent that the ceremony is focused on the church and Gwen's accomplishments rather than the couple in which the ceremony should only be about.

The major element in which makes RF covenant marriages "unique" (in my opinion) is the "signing of the covenant", which ALL RF couples are required to do. This  part of the ceremony involves the couple signing a Gwen + leadership tailored document that "spiritually binds" the couple to the church and it's doctrine. The signing of this document is a promise from the couple before their god and people (RF) to also uphold the marriage by putting their god first, his church second and their marriage last. It also reiterates that the couple is of the church and should live their lives to represent, uphold and further grow the church and its (realistically, Gwen's) "message". This document is copied and shared with the couple and stored within the RF archives. At the end of the signing, church members recite a few words in relation to THEIR covenant to uphold, guide and help the couple stay focused on god, in the message (Gwen's teachings), the church and to serve its people.

During my long tenure at Remnant Fellowship I often (mentally) noted a lot of comments from families of the brides and groom. These comments usually pertain to the awkwardness, blandness and church focused elements of the wedding. I remember one time, a family member approached me with questions about the ceremony. She expressed her disdain towards the couple and how the wedding seemed more like a church sermon than an actual wedding. I of course (to cover myself for I was having "doubts" at the time this occurred) spewed the usual drone-like rhetoric that all members were conditioned / trained to do when engaging with "outsiders" that were at the wedding(s).

In short summary (TL:DR); An RF wedding is basically Saturday sermon mixed with ancient jewish and American wedding elements. It involves Gwen preaching about her god, the church, how and why the couple are there while praising those who helped them along the way (Gwen, leadership, the church, etc). She speaks about RF, its history, and highlights previous weddings and successful RF marriages. There is a theme to every wedding sermon however to be frank, they all essentially sound the same and can easily be compressed into 5-10 minutes, instead of 45 min to a damn hour, hahahaha). The couple signs a wedding covenant, the church recites theirs as well. There's also of course music, singing etc and a reception to follow.

Special Notes: There are different "tiers" (pricing) of weddings at RF. There are not many variances between each price point/package, however the core elements & flow are the same. Gwen speaks, the couple signs the covenant, and the church recites their covenant promise to the couple. Sometimes the sermon is short, sometimes there is no highlight video. Sometimes it in the "Fellowship Hall" (in the back of the church) or at an RF member's home. It depends on each tier and what the couple requests. Note that most of the time, if the couple's requests align with Gwen and the church's wedding committee's goals then they are usually granted without a fuss, however most of the time they control and interject their plans into the wedding. Most weddings as some of you have seen, are almost the same with some variances in color and some decorative themes. This is of course, going back to what I said a page ago about Gwen wanting a more "unified" church focused being "one under God".

[Soulhuntress]

56 minutes ago, RFSurvivor_2 said:

Note that most of the time, if the couple's requests align with Gwen and the church's wedding committee's goals then they are usually granted without a fuss, however most of the time they control and interject their plans into the wedding. Most weddings as some of you have seen, are almost the same with some variances in color and some decorative themes. This is of course, going back to what I said a page ago about Gwen wanting a more "unified" church focused being "one under God".

Are Non RF family members invited or included (if invited) in the ceremony?

[RFsurvivor]

On 7/27/2018 at 11:09 AM, sajetime said:

I have visited the church and I met with a few Remnant members who lived in my state. I found it really uncomfortable trying to converse with them. They're  not really interested in you personally, and they're not interested in discussing worldly things (that said, many have super nice homes, nice cars, etc.). To a non-member, they only seem to want to talk about about the church, and quoting/referencing Gwen and "what God's doing in your life," "what God's showing you" and aspects of the Weigh Down program, "testimonies" about the church and the message. (And then there's the Remnant lingo ... everything is "praise God," "put it into practice," "keep your focus up," "dying to self," "under authority," "going all in.")

And no wonder, because it seems members are kept busy with the work of the "kingdom" — two services a week, classes held in homes and online, volunteering for the various ministries, church-centered homeschooling/Remnant Academy/church camp and fellowship events — that they don't have time for much outside the church.

This was one of the things that I had a lot of trouble with when I was in the church. I wanted deeper friendships and to talk about other things but allllll they ever talk about it what god is doing in your life. You basically didn't have conversations that didn't somehow tie back to God. It was exhausting. It felt like an act after a while and when I made friends outside of the church. 

 

You are also so right about the members being kept busy. I had a job in high school and college and sometimes I would be unable to attend events and that was strongly looked down upon...there were lots of events all the time and it was basically a full time job to attend all of them! 

On 7/27/2018 at 8:34 PM, Soulhuntress said:

I wonder if the less special (not the leaders kids) get less swag and decorations?  Noting all the banners have the same fonts and design.  

Oh I would bet money that all of them were made in one night with the painting part of the decorating committee. All they do is make one design, project it on butcher paper, paint it, switch the name...

[RFSurvivor_2]

1 hour ago, Soulhuntress said:

Are Non RF family members invited or included (if invited) in the ceremony?

Non RF family and friends can be invited, but only if they are approved by Gwen and leadership first before the invitation(s) are sent. Non RF family members are not included in the wedding parties or are a part of the making / creation of the ceremony. The only considered exception (with scrutiny) that I personally know of is if the bride requests to be walked down the isle and given away by her non-RF father. If the bride requests for her father to walk her down the isle and give her away, leadership generally would let it happen (only) under their conditions. Sometimes the request would be denied due to the nature of the relationship between the bride's father vs the church, the father's physical appearance, and Gwen + leaderships other illogical reasoning behind not allowing such a thing to happen.

During the reception, there is a father daughter/son mother dance that occurs.