Seewalds 28: Marketing Kids as Deflection

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

Oh yay, baking discussion! This morning I made two batches of cookie dough for gingerbread men. I like the blog Sally's Baking Addiction for cookie recipes... It's generally my go-to. It's chilling in the fridge and will be ready to cut out and bake in a couple hours!

My SO's work has a cookie competition right before Christmas so I need to figure out what I'm making for that! These gingerbread men are sort of a test run for that.

 

OMG, your avi and SN! LOL

[TheMustardCardigan]

29 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

OMG, your avi and SN! LOL

Couldn't think of anything more fitting for discussing the Duggars! 

[lomo6]

On 11/30/2017 at 6:59 PM, Sky with diamonds said:

I hope in the next few years things will be better for her. I always ponder how the future will be for the younger girls.

I've said it before, but I'm convinced that the younger girls have the highest chances of rebelling/truly escaping.

A huge part of the hold that JB and Michelle have over their children is financial - the TLC money is good, and SOTDRT did not equip these Duggarlings to thrive in the real world. 

I highly doubt strong public interest in the Duggars (i.e. TLC money) will last long enough to see the younger girls get married. Johannah just turned 12 - maybe if she gets married on her 18th birthday there will be some interest. But enough to fund a lifestyle for a young, uneducated couple with a litter of kids and no real employment? I doubt it...

Plus, some of the older daughters are paving the way for mild transgressions. That puts these things into the girls' minds at younger ages - the perfect daughter Jill now has a nose ring and wears jeans, FFS! JB and Michelle will be even more checked out as time progresses, and I bet that the kids are going to be able to get away with more independent thinking. 

And finally - and perhaps most importantly - these girls are going to see the dark side of some of their older sisters'/sister moms' marriages. There's been a lot of talk here about how Jessa seems to have the most egalitarian marriage/Jill looks miserable/Jinger might finally be free -- but that's all based on social media/marketing, which can be very deceiving. I've known multiple people with picture-perfect social media accounts who have or had straight-up abusive relationships. 

 

[Daisy0322]

25 minutes ago, lomo6 said:

....There's been a lot of talk here about how Jessa seems to have the most egalitarian marriage/Jill looks miserable/Jinger might finally be free -- but that's all based on social media/marketing, which can be very deceiving. I've known multiple people with picture-perfect social media accounts who have or had straight-up abusive relationships. 

 

While I think that Jessa and Ben are actually a good match I think Jessa purposely picked a husband that was younger than her and less strong willed so she could if not have the upper hand, be equal. I could see Kendra and Joe going this way as well.

Jill I think got something entirely different than she bargained for and based on the marriage advice she gave joy and Austin derek appears at least emotionally abusive. And Jeremy while good in some ways I think seems to put a lot of pressure on jinger to be a "pastor wife" and treats her like a child. I think Austin and joy will be similar too.

 

[Carm_88]

I think that having Spurgeon and Henry have had a big impact on Ben and Jessa as well. They both seem so into their little boys right now (I know but what about when there are 10? That I don't know). They seem to work well together and that's needed. Their relationship seems stable in a way that Derick and Jill's does not. It's too early to tell about all of the newlyweds. 

[Glasgowghirl]

4 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I think that having Spurgeon and Henry have had a big impact on Ben and Jessa as well. They both seem so into their little boys right now (I know but what about when there are 10? That I don't know). They seem to work well together and that's needed. Their relationship seems stable in a way that Derick and Jill's does not. It's too early to tell about all of the newlyweds. 

Agreed Ben and Jessa clearly love their boys and enjoy parenting them, Jill and Derick may love their sons but they don't seem to interact with them the way Ben and Jessa do.  They are also well suited as a couple and they both have helped each other grow. 

[GracieLou Free Duggar]

5 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

Jill I think got something entirely different than she bargained for and based on the marriage advice she gave joy and Austin derek appears at least emotionally abusive. And Jeremy while good in some ways I think seems to put a lot of pressure on jinger to be a "pastor wife" and treats her like a child. I think Austin and joy will be similar too.

 

What did I miss her saying to Joy and Austin? I'm blanking.

[Daisy0322]

2 hours ago, GracieLou Free Duggar said:

What did I miss her saying to Joy and Austin? I'm blanking.

I don't quite remember something about telling Austin to basically be supportive when she cries. I didn't watch the episode though I gathered that from other people's posts.

[Seculardaisy]

2 hours ago, GracieLou Free Duggar said:

What did I miss her saying to Joy and Austin? I'm blanking.

She said “Austin, there’s going to be times when your wife is crying and you don’t know why, just be there for her.” Or something along those lines.

[Carm_88]

From Jessa’s Instagram story! Spurgeon is super cute! [emoji7]

[HarryPotterFan]

21 hours ago, Seculardaisy said:

She said “Austin, there’s going to be times when your wife is crying and you don’t know why, just be there for her.” Or something along those lines.

That kind of disturbed me. Does Jill just randomly cry for no reason? Is she okay? Is Derick supportive? 

Well I guess Jackson has style! 

[Dr. Fundie Stalker]

On 2017-11-17 at 4:12 PM, OhNoNike said:

I watched a fund is romance movie recently... Princess Cut.  Free on amazon prime.

It was... Interesting. 

Thank you for the rabbit hole! 

[Georgiana]

57 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

That kind of disturbed me. Does Jill just randomly cry for no reason? Is she okay? Is Derick supportive? 

Well I guess Jackson has style! 

To be fair, Jill got pregnant IMMEDIATELY after marriage, and from that point on has been essentially either pregnant or nursing, with only the smallest of breaks.  She doesn't actually know what marriage is like without the hormones and the upheavals of moving between countries.  She might think that brides just feel moved to tears a lot at first, when really, that's the pregnancy and stress's doing.  

And I have LONG had the suspicion that it is NOT uncommon in these circles for brides especially to struggle with the adjustment to married life.  They have a LOT of changes hitting them at once, little to no taught coping mechanisms besides praying, and are lead to believe they are getting Prince Charming instead of Average Joe.  Priscilla Waller and Erin Bates Paine both were pretty open about struggling in the early days of their marriage, and Pris did a lot of crying herself.  

I also think Jill is a crier.  I'm not knocking it, but from the reactions of her family sometimes, I get the impression that Jill bursting into tears is/was a regular occurrence.  The Duggar fam certainly didn't help that as tears, the traditional "woman's weapon" along with poison, were probably one of the few ways Jill could manipulate her environment or get her way without censure or disapproval.  And I think Jill, as a people pleaser, is unwilling to risk dislike or anger towards her and therefore would be more likely to try and get her way/needs met by playing the sympathy card.  

This unfortunately may have lead to a Boy Who Cried (wolf) situation, where she may be now in genuine emotional distress, but others are unable to see the signs because she has so normalized this behavior for herself.  If you normally cry 3 times a week, no one is going to take much notice if you up it to 4 or 5. 

Edit to add: Cherin lovers, fear not: Erin and Chad handled their issues by discussing their needs openly and working to see them fulfilled.  One issue Erin had was boredom/loneliness during the day while Chad was at work, so they started having her siblings over more often and she picked back up work on her music career, both in teaching and recording.  But my point is that it is not uncommon for women in this culture to initially struggle with the adjustment to married life.  It's sometimes almost treated as a given.

[Carm_88]

I am someone who cries easily at times. If I'm arguing with someone, I cry. It's not that I try to use it as a weapon but if I can't clearly say what I want to say or if I say something wrong in the heat of the moment, I cry. I cannot help it and it is not me being emotionally manipulative but it very much does come across that way. It's rough and you do lose sympathy because it gets to be normal. It sucks. 

[TheMustardCardigan]

I am a crier and it's one of my least favorite things about myself. When I get angry, upset, nervous, overwhelmed, etc... I hate it because I would like to be able to have a difficult conversation without crying. It makes me seem weak and not in control of my emotions and, as other people have said, manipulative. I think the person on the other end also takes it as "I made her cry" but sometimes it's just the topic of conversation or my own feelings. Some of us are just wired this way, Jill might be, and it makes me sympathize with her. 

[singsingsing]

It doesn't seem healthy to me to have that kind of attitude toward a spouse's expression of emotion. I think the advice to just provide comfort rather than feeling you have to solve everything is great, but just accepting that she/he is crying for no reason...? Nobody ever cries for no reason. Even if the reason is 'I'm really hormonal and this credit card commercial is making me emotional', there's a reason. In Jill's scenario the husband should be concerned and want to know why his wife is crying, and his wife should feel comfortable telling him why, whether it's serious or totally minor. And if she's crying all the time 'for no reason', something is seriously wrong.

[TheMustardCardigan]

I think there's a lot of people out there though that think "crying for no reason" and "crying because I'm hormonal" are sort of interchangeable because hormones aren't something tangible with an easy-to-see cause and effect. Like, if I'm crying because something bad happened, like because I broke something that was important to me, feels legitimate. It's easy to understand why I'm upset and why crying is a natural reaction. Crying because I'm hormonal feels less legitimate even though it's totally understandable and it does have a direct cause and effect, it's just invisible. It feels more irrational because hormones might make you cry over something one week that, last week, wouldn't have made you cry at all... So it feels like you're crying for no reason because it doesn't seem like a good reason. Maybe that's how it's getting labeled as "crying for no reason" by Jill or whoever else. 

Or, maybe something weirder afoot. Definitely not dismissing that just because of everything else we've seen with the Dills that seems 'off' (Derick being extreme on Twitter, all of them looking not particularly happy in photos a lot of the time, weird photos and social media behavior, maladjustment to life abroad, etc.). 

[singsingsing]

Ahhh, good point, @TheMustardCardigan! I have an anxiety disorder and over the past year or so I've been trying to employ mindfulness techniques to manage it, so I've become pretty good at recognizing, labeling, and observing various emotions and feelings, and oftentimes their origins/causes. It's so important for me now that I think I kind of take it for granted that it's the default mode, when it's definitely not - I can't even do it consistently now, and I most definitely wasn't doing it probably even 25% of the time in the past.

[FleeJanaFree]

95% of my tears are frustration, 3% from sadness, and 2% from a super emotional scene in a book.

[Carm_88]

9 minutes ago, FleeJanaFree said:

95% of my tears are frustration, 3% from sadness, and 2% from a super emotional scene in a book.

Oh god! So much crying over books! I read things that I know will be tearjerkers and am then shocked when I cry! What's the matter with me? 

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

3 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Well I guess Jackson has style! 

Jackson's Eye For The Seawald Guy. Super cute.

[VineHeart137]

Henry tries a pickle and Benessa go on a double date. I kind of feel like these are the kinds of posts Jill is striving for but hasn't quite figured out yet. "Look how normal we are and how cute our kids are!"

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Carm_88]

Yeah, I feel like Jill's washing disaster was supposed to be something similar to Jessa's dirty house post. She just doesn't pull it off. 

[TheMustardCardigan]

I've gotten the "trying to be like Jessa" vibe in Jill's posts lately as well... The latest photo with baby Sam wrapped in the towel has a caption that's trying for that same "relatable busy mom lol" vibe, talking about how she makes to-do lists and includes tasks she's already completed to cross them out and feel accomplished. The formula she seems to be going for a lot is cute kid + talking about house chores + trying to say something funny or relatable about trying to do the chores. It feels kind of forced and not as natural as Jessa's posts.

 

 

[formerhsfundie]

Okay, so I don't usually weigh in on Duggar threads because I am super passionate about how shitty fundie life is, and it's all still kind of triggering... but I have firsthand experience with that feeling Jill might have, of trying to make the best of a shitty marriage, while watching other young couples take to marriage (seemingly) gracefully, and in love.

In my case I was a virgin fundie bride, handpicked for my naivete by my (now ex) husband, I had very little idea what exactly was wrong, and I had so little relationship experience I was in way over my head from day 1. The abuse started immediately.  And then the babies/no birth control....I can't even explain how awful the whole experience was.

Learning the right terminology and getting perspective on my situation was hard for me, as I imagine it could be for Jill, this is the life she knows. I only started following the Duggar girls after I found out what fundamentalism was, after I realized I was basically part of a cult. That was after my life was in pieces as a result of all the terrible things I believed... which turned out to not even be true. It took me ages to figure out all the crazy things my parents taught me was not remotely how life works. Reality is a harsh teacher. I really hope this is not the case for Jill, but cults have a way of fucking with your personal identity. They are usually pretty big on that.

I didn't have words for anything initially, because between the homeschooling, cultural isolation and church I only had religious terms for emotions (sins, I think they're called ;)) and thought management was more along the lines of vague advice to protect your mind from "evil thoughts". It's medieval, really. Not useful for a stressed/overwhelmed young mother with anxiety.

Whoever said you have to learn how to identify emotions is sooo right. To be a high performing adult in stressful times, one has to be able to process new experiences, and Jill probably does not have the vocabulary for some of the stuff she has experienced recently... her lack of childhood education is no help, it gives her no framework to expand on. So much fail for the Duggar SOTDRT.

Also, the dream of marriage being a solution to your life... it's tough if you've been depressed and abused your whole life, then get married, and find out nothing changes. Obviously that's not how that works, but an innocent fundie girl may have dared to dream it or believe in that sort of "quick fix" solution. Turns out a good life is a shit ton of work, doesn't happen over night. 

Add to all of this, the fact that Jill STARTED her marriage as a worn-out sister mom. No wonder she is having a tough time with two babies right off the bat. People need time off. Their system doesn't offer women that. Ugh. It's bad for the moms, and terrible for their children.

I checked Jills instagram to see what everyone's refering to with the whole copying Jessa. Jill looks exhausted, and I agree with people saying something seems off! Maybe she keeps those pics of Derek in her bible to remind herself she really loves him. Or look at his face pre surgery :/