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Jinger 33: Beauty: By God!


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40 minutes ago, lomo6 said:

"It wasn't until his mid-teens..." LMAO. 

Also, I find it strange that people assume that the Duggar kids couldn't get through a basic college program that didn't involve a lot of math or science (which I agree would require way too much remediation to be realistic). Maybe y'all on FJ have a higher opinion of the non-elite university system here in the US than I do. :pb_lol:

I have a master's from a fairly prestigious university where I TA'd undergrads, and I saw plenty of people with writing skills at Jill's level or below. I have also known a number of people who have managed to get bachelor's in subjects like communications, business, criminal justice, and even early childhood education despite a distinct lack of critical thinking skills and an average work ethic. Maybe they failed (or came close to failing) a math req along the way, but they graduated. 

Clearly none of the Duggars are Ivy-material, and I think having kids will make it hard if not impossible for some of the young women. But most college graduates in the US are more like B/C students from Northwest Arkansas State - Tonitown (I just made that up) than they are like classics majors at Yale, or even econ majors at UT-Austin. Many even go back to school while holding down jobs or while being single moms. 

 

 

IDK- I give most 18+ year olds more credit than I give the Duggars. Most 18+ YOs have worked within a structure of some sort be it just school or school and work. Most have an idea what structure requires in terms of time and energy. Most people who are admitted to college have a modicum of independent thought and action. The Duggras, in addition to having been very poorly and minimally educated in academics, have also been stunted in activities of daily living. Sure, the girls can change a disposable diaper, open a can and feed an infant from a gigantic spoon, but navigate life away from and independent of the tribe? I'm not really seeing any success on that front from the 2nd generation Duggars. 

It's about far more than academics- it's about being a juggler.

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3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

IDK- I give most 18+ year olds more credit than I give the Duggars. Most 18+ YOs have worked within a structure of some sort be it just school or school and work. Most have an idea what structure requires in terms of time and energy. Most people who are admitted to college have a modicum of independent thought and action. The Duggras, in addition to having been very poorly and minimally educated in academics, have also been stunted in activities of daily living. Sure, the girls can change a disposable diaper, open a can and feed an infant from a gigantic spoon, but navigate life away from and independent of the tribe? I'm not really seeing any success on that front from the 2nd generation Duggars. 

It's about far more than academics- it's about being a juggler.

I completely agree. I work at a middling university and read lots and lots of Admission and other essays, particularly from high school seniors. While many do have Duggar-level writing skills, their life experience, such as it is, makes them way more competent than it seems a Duggar would be. They've largely been taught the kinds of skills they need to get through a higher education program, even though they might not excel at it. Many of them work or worked in high school and know how to deal with everyday life in addition to real school work. Most students are given way more independence before they get to university-level studies than the Duggars have.

This is kind of hilarious because usually I'm way more likely to moan about the students' lack of school skills and general incompetency, but the Duggars are a great reminder that it could be a lot worse!!

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No way could the Duggar kids just drop into college and be fine. They were not taught critical thinking, how to write an essay, time management, how to determine for what information a question is seeking nor how to research or actually take a test. @SassyPants is right are there a lot of things we take for granted that the Duggars have never experienced when it comes to education. Even the worst public school education is still likely better than what they received. 

What’s sad is there does not seem to have been an emphasis on cultivating intellectual curiosity. No one was going to go find books because their kid took an interest in dinosaurs or polar bears. Even now, we seen the newly married Duggar women appear to be suddenly interested in things their husbands find interesting but there is no way to know if it is their interest or they are just mimicking their husbands. Still waiting to see one of them pursue a non-husband, non-Gothard approved interest. I️ doubt it will happen any time soon. 

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I’m pretty sure the Duggars would mostly be fine in college, even with their minimal writing skills. Thinking back to my ex boyfriend who ended up at a very prestigious university studying economics with grammar/writing/spelling wayyy worse than we have ever seen the Duggars exhibit. :my_confused:

Edited by closetcagebaby
Autocorrect madness
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10 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

I’m pretty sure the Duggars would mostly be fine in college, even with their minimal writing skills. Thinking back to my ex boyfriend who ended up at a very prestigious university studying economics with grammar/writing/spelling wayyy worse than we have ever seen the Duggars exhibit. :my_confused:

I don't think it's their writing skills that would trip them up, though. Their basic writing skills are fine. If they don't know how to write an essay, that's pretty easy to learn. It's much harder to unlearn a lifetime of indoctrination which has left you with little to no ability to exercise critical thinking, question your own biases, evaluate evidence critically, or formulate an argument without being able to fall back on the Bible.

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1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

I don't think it's their writing skills that would trip them up, though. Their basic writing skills are fine. If they don't know how to write an essay, that's pretty easy to learn. It's much harder to unlearn a lifetime of indoctrination which has left you with little to no ability to exercise critical thinking, question your own biases, evaluate evidence critically, or formulate an argument without being able to fall back on the Bible.

This is very true! I think that critical thinking is probably a hard thing to learn as an adult too. 

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1 hour ago, brusselsgriffon said:

Aren't you required to state in the caption on Instagram when you're being paid to advertise? 

You are supposed to, yes, but there are tons of cases of reality stars either not knowing or not caring - and it's blurry when people aren't been paid money, but in freebies.  I really enjoy the instadvertising where someone has a whole list of blatant @-ing in their posts, because it's hilarious!   It's going to be interesting to see how this pans out, because it's the type of thing where tech and culture are moving faster than laws and/or rules can keep up with.  

2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

It's much harder to unlearn a lifetime of indoctrination which has left you with little to no ability to exercise critical thinking, question your own biases, evaluate evidence critically, or formulate an argument without being able to fall back on the Bible.

I agree with this.  And the classic SOTDRT is about kids completing booklets/computer programmes individually, with clear-cut right or wrong answers, so I don't know how they'd be able to cope with rigorous discussion, or having their views challenged. 

The conversations that happen in an English Lit, or History class for example, where people learn to debate and have radically different viewpoints, and back up their arguments, are impossible.  Or when you have to be able to use evidence to argue a viewpoint that's different to the one you believe (we had to do that as part of learning how history is written by the victors, and the difference between history and propaganda).   And I know Not All Fundies (the Jeubs and their debating, for example, though that seems adversarial rather than conversational) but to me this is where SOTDRT is so different from actual homeschooling. 

And now I think about it, I wonder what it's like learning with no one else at the same level, to have these conversations with and explore ideas with.  The Duggars seem to operate on an age hierarchy, and I know they had Joy and the twins "graduate" at the same time, but I wonder how they get round that?   Wasn't it the Shupes where they just taught an older kid at the same level as their younger kid, as it was easier to have them at the same level?  

I was lucky in that I enjoyed school learning, and I really loved laughing at outlandish interpretations of poems with my friends, or the fun of being able to explore ideas, not as right or wrong, but as possibilities.  Of course, other people find joy in scientific or mathematical rules, or whatever - it's just heart-breaking to me that all these kids are being given this kind of education that seems so dry, so isolating.   It's not that it wouldn't suit anyone, its just that they have no options of any other learning styles. 

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1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

I don't think it's their writing skills that would trip them up, though. Their basic writing skills are fine. If they don't know how to write an essay, that's pretty easy to learn. It's much harder to unlearn a lifetime of indoctrination which has left you with little to no ability to exercise critical thinking, question your own biases, evaluate evidence critically, or formulate an argument without being able to fall back on the Bible.

I went to a Southern Baptist university for a year, and this was a very common issue in my English classes. Students argued using bible verses, or simply saying ‘because the Bible says!’ Without calling a specific verse. Some teachers would accept it, others wanted more argument. Lots of students got stuck there, not having any other arguments taught to them. The ability to defend your thoughts and to know why you think that way can be hard for people who’ve grown up being told ‘because god says so’ 

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9 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

And social media isn't really the best way to understand anyone's life, whether they're a "celebrity" or not. 

I really do try to remember this

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I don't believe that any of the Duggar kids are necessarily incapable of getting a college degree if they put their mind and effort into it, but I do think the culture shock in a standard university would be a challenge for them. These kids have been indoctrined with their parents' and Gothard's principles their entire lives, and universities bring so many different perspectives into he forefront. Of course a Duggar going to college would have already changed their views in many ways, but I still think it would Ben an overwhelming experience for any of them (although the optimist in new hopes at least one of them gets the chance to do this).

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8 hours ago, brusselsgriffon said:

Aren't you required to state in the caption on Instagram when you're being paid to advertise? 

Yes you have to disclose that you have a relationship with the company in plain English unless it's a well known connection.  Like back in the day Michael Jordan wouldn't have had to disclose a relationship with Nike because everyone and their brother knew about Air Jordans.  It doesn't matter if money or product exchange hands you have to disclose.  The FCC is cracking down on this and recently addressed how to properly do it.  We used to be able to leave a link for a product on social media with affiliate link but that no longer cuts it we have to say something like "When you make a purchase through this link I get a small commission" or tag it as #ad which kills reach on Facebook and Instagram.

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14 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I don't think it's their writing skills that would trip them up, though. Their basic writing skills are fine. If they don't know how to write an essay, that's pretty easy to learn. It's much harder to unlearn a lifetime of indoctrination which has left you with little to no ability to exercise critical thinking, question your own biases, evaluate evidence critically, or formulate an argument without being able to fall back on the Bible.

They'd also get a rude shock when they realise that "LOL Duggar Time!" isn't a valid excuse for showing up an hour late to a final exam. 

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It's definitely not their writing skills that would be an issue: most kids coming out of high school have pretty poor writing skills. (Obviously not everyone, but the average kids going to college.) I see a huge difference in just one year - comparing a student's freshman essays to sophomore essays usually shows that they've improved a lot in a short time. I expect the same thing would happen if any Duggars were to do to higher education, because writing isn't super hard to learn.

As other people said, though, critical thinking, good study/learning habits, and independence are really hard to learn. They'd be lost in any class discussion and it would take them a long time to learn how to function and get all their work done in an independent setting. We don't have that many students coming from a fundie homeschooling background so I don't really have experience with that, but I do see that students coming from very stifling home environments take way longer to adapt to university life - both the level of work they have to deal with and how to get by relatively on their own.

 

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They could be fishing for endorsements instead of actually being paid to promote that. I get that vibe with fundies often, that they'd love to be sent free stuff, so they tag companies when they talk about them.

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Community colleges are great for remedial classes. They don't transfer to a 4 year college, but you can get an associate degree there, and that will transfer. They're also cheaper.

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Community college credits can transfer, but remedial credits even at larger Universities don't count towards your degree. My HS had a dual enrollment track, where you earned community college credit for classes taken at the HS, plus you could still take the AP tests. I think it was started to offset the kids who were really bright, but had bad test anxiety so weren't scoring high enough on the tests for college credit. My out of state fancy school accepted them all except for lab credit, which was dumb because that was the only one we actually did at the CC.

It was nice, it meant I got to skip a lot of basics and more importantly got to enroll each semester way earlier, so I could get the classes I wanted! 

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20 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Community colleges are great for remedial classes. They don't transfer to a 4 year college, but you can get an associate degree there, and that will transfer. They're also cheaper.

Maybe it's different depending on the college - my sister did a year at community college and is now at a 3-year university (edit: she's doing 3 years at a 4-year university), and all her credits for core classes transferred. If a Duggar ever wanted to explore higher learning (lol), that would probably be the best thing to do--take some relatively inexpensive 101 classes at a community college before deciding if they wanted to move forward. If only they had that option.....

Edited by brusselsgriffon
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I didn't explain myself very well. Remedial classes don't transfer, regular classes do. It's a great place to start if you need extra help, and the classes are generally smaller.

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And I think if they wanted to go into any kind of field relating to science, medicine, or engineering, they'd struggle even more. I can't imagine any of them are capable of doing advanced high school level math. We know that their science education consists of anti-evolution apologetics. A basic remedial biology class would probably be almost totally beyond their ability to comprehend, and would either send them spiraling into a confused and panicked crisis of faith, or more likely to angrily drop the class or fail it by turning in assignments full of creationist talking points.

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24 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

And I think if they wanted to go into any kind of field relating to science, medicine, or engineering, they'd struggle even more. I can't imagine any of them are capable of doing advanced high school level math. We know that their science education consists of anti-evolution apologetics. A basic remedial biology class would probably be almost totally beyond their ability to comprehend, and would either send them spiraling into a confused and panicked crisis of faith, or more likely to angrily drop the class or fail it by turning in assignments full of creationist talking points.

While I agree with you on the whole, I do rather wonder how the Duggars would do in the social sciences and humanities. The hard sciences usually have a right or wrong answer during training. The social sciences and humanities don't. So, I idly wonder how a Duggar would stand up to, say, a critical discussion about Jane Austen's works, when there are no right or wrong answers- in the secular world. I suspect that they wouldn't do ambiguity well.

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Evolution is only a very small part of biology, for the most part college biology is much more technical and a lot of memorization. For my biology major you had a requirement to take take either evolution or morphology for a 3 credit course. There were a couple options in each, so any Creationists just took amphibian morphology or metamorphosis. 

The idea that Creationists can't be scientists is a silly and often repeated one, there are plenty of scientists who reconcile evolution with intelligent design or the simple idea that time is a human construct and doesn't apply to x,y,z.  The Vatican science department wrote a really interesting piece on the Church's acceptance of evolution and how it doesn't conflict or reject God's creation of the world using biblical references. Not that it would impact the Duggars since it comes from Catholics, but for most religions it's not a conflict anymore.

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4 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

They'd also get a rude shock when they realise that "LOL Duggar Time!" isn't a valid excuse for showing up an hour late to a final exam. 

I actually think the mechanics and nuts and bolts of having to be in X place at Y time, day in and day out, would be just as big of an adjustment as the actual academics.

These folks haven't marched to the beat of someone else's drum, for a sustained amount of time, in a good long time, if ever.

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2 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Community colleges are great for remedial classes. They don't transfer to a 4 year college, but you can get an associate degree there, and that will transfer. They're also cheaper.

Credits from Community Colleges do transfer though, even if you don’t earn an Associate’s degree. Some students in my state do a year at a Community College before transferring to a 4 year university - usually a state university because those schools are pretty much guaranteed to accept all the courses. It’s a great option for completing some of your Gen Ed requirements without the the big price tag.

ETA: I don’t know how I managed to miss the previous responses or your clarification, but here we are. :doh:

Edited by VelociRapture
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