The Bergeys are in South Africa.

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, Ali said:

It would have only taken me seconds to recall that cookies are called biscuits in the U.K. 

I truly think her anxiety was taking over and a reaction to anxiety is freezing. She froze in the food court and the store. She couldn't think straight. But she won't recognize her very real anxiety and see a doctor or therapist. She will just pray. And she will have more episodes in the future. Hopefully it won't harm her or her family when it happens. 

[Palimpsest]

Culture shock is real but I think Selina is being a bit of a drama queen.  She's a drama queen about everything.

As @laPapessaGiovanna remembered, like most IFB missionaries, the Bergeys did do a "survey trip" to RSA at one point but it was essentially a vacation.  They also have a highfalutin' plan for how their mission is going to develop.

Quote

 

Our plan is to move to South Africa, learn the Xhosa language, acquire an appropriate property, and work within the red tape of the government to be able to accept orphaned children into our home.

We will utilize our intense orphan training and resources to nurture, feed, clothe, educate, and parent the orphans in a loving Christian family environment.

Working closely with veteran church planting missionaries in the area, we will not only share the life-changing gospel of Jesus Christ with the children on a daily basis, but also bring them up in a local church environment.

 

They are in Port Elizabeth where most people speak English, but Afrikaans would be the second language.  And I wonder whether they tried to learn IsiXhosa while on their years of deputation.

They do know a few other "missionaries" in the area.  I looked a few of them up at one point.  It is not unlike John Shrader puffing up his slight connection to Bobby Bonner and the I AM Kafulafuta mission.  

Quote

Should our ministry outgrow our personal ability to run efficiently (and we pray this is the case!), we will take on additional staff members, through the following ways:

• Volunteer or paid staff from the local Baptist churches.
• Foster families, also from local Baptist churches.
• Missionary families who are called to move to SA and partner with our ministry.
• Single men and women (college students, nurses, teachers, etc) who wish to commit to an orphan ministry internship OR minister alongside us long-term.

Grandiose plans indeed.

This is just the Vision.  The Bergeys also bless us with a "detailed" plan.  A series of bullet points.

Quote

Below you will find our detailed three-step plan for Little Fish Ministries:

Stage One 

Learn local Xhosa language

• Train under veteran missionaries for cultural and relational needs of the people
• Work with government officials
• Acquire appropriate facilities
• Train national Christians for staffing needs
• Provide food, clothing, medical care, family integration, and Biblical teaching to orphans

Stage Two

• Soul-winning, one-on-one nurture and discipleship for orphans
• School for orphans
• Local church sponsorship of individual orphans
• Become a training ground for other like-minded orphan ministries to be created
• Short and long term mission trips for those interested in serving
• Grow staff and facilities as needed

Stage Three

• Integrate orphans into local Christian foster homes when possible
• Train orphans to be involved in local church ministries
• Maintain an internship program for Christian college students to minister with the orphans
• Bible college for orphans
• Become a training ground for future orphan ministries

How ambitious.  Notice that they have no budget listed anywhere.

Now who will fund me on my mission to ... Hawaii?  Hawaii needs Rufus.

I'll need a survey trip first so that I can find a few poor people to photograph and assess the need for my skills and experience.  I'm not going to tell what those are because they are irrelevant.  All you need to know is that I love RUFUS. 

I am burdened for Hawaii.  And I have a heart for the poor people there who are unsaved by Rufus.  About 2 weeks should do it for my vacation survey.  January would be nice.  

When I get back, I'll load up the pups and go on Deputation to raise the rest of the money for my mission.  I have my eye on a used RV.  It runs on weens and I only need $20K more to buy it.  I'm setting up my PayPal account so you can give generously.

Remember, I'm asking for prayers not money.  Rufus will provide for all my needs through PayPal.

[JillyO]

8 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

When I get back, I'll load up the pups and go on Deputation to raise the rest of the money for my mission.  I have my eye on a used RV.  It runs on weens and I only need $20K more to buy it.  I'm setting up my PayPal account so you can give generously.

Remember, I'm asking for prayers not money.  Rufus will provide for all my needs through PayPal.

Sis Palimpsest,

It sounds like you have a good plan for your ministry in Hawaii. The people of Hawaii really need to hear the good news about our Lord and Savior, Rufus. However, I am a little confused about this PayPal you speak of. I only know Paplal.com. Can you please enlighten me? Rufus bless!

Sis JillyO

[subsaharanafrica]

56 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

This is just the Vision.  The Bergeys also bless us with a "detailed" plan.  A series of bullet points.

There is a largish nondenominational (in the sense that they're not affiliated with any one denomination but with several) Christian organization that already does most of their bullet points in multiple countries across Africa. 

They partner with whatever the largest denomination in a given country is, build a village centered around a school, hire local women to act as foster mothers, and basically raise children whose extended families cannot care for them and see that they get the education that they will need to succeed in life. 

Anyways, they used to be in South Africa. They pulled out about ten years ago because RSA does a pretty decent job taking care of the above on its own. 

[freealljs]

Damn, another fundie family going to save South Africa. I lived and met my husband there.  Our DD is a dual citizen, and I'm a permanent resident.  We want to eventually move back to SA.

She was surprised by what she has seen?  That they have churches,  grocery stores, cars, public transportation, very good schools, 11 official languages (English being one of them)? She knows that the Cricket World Cup was held there? Yeesh.  

Seriously, the only good thing is if they overstay their tourist visas, they may not be able to go back to South Africa for several years. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Can someone tell me why all these fundies don't just stay the fuck here and help the children in THIS country that go to bed hungry, are abused, and in need of fostering? Why not let the people who live in SA do the work since they know what they are doing. Again, just send your money to the experts in SA while you stay in the US and take in foster children. There is always a need for foster homes. I really don't get these white savior fundies. And they infuriate me to no end. 

[acheronbeach]

4 hours ago, Ali said:

It would have only taken me seconds to recall that cookies are called biscuits in the U.K. 

And even if you hadn't, you would simply figure it out by seeing the photograph of the cookie on the side of the packet, like every two year old manages to accomplish.  :\

[Anonymousguest]

10 minutes ago, acheronbeach said:

And even if you hadn't, you would simply figure it out by seeing the photograph of the cookie on the side of the packet, like every two year old manages to accomplish.  :\

Yeah. I was able to find the cookies in the supermarket just fine when I was in Spain, and I don't speak Spanish. I did get some funky items but that was part of the adventure. I was a little surprised that the types of wine were all different, but I still managed to get a half way decent bottle despite the shop keeper not speaking a word of English. Much better than the 1.23eu wine hubby picked out lol! 

[Georgiana]

54 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Can someone tell me why all these fundies don't just stay the fuck here and help the children in THIS country that go to bed hungry, are abused, and in need of fostering? Why not let the people who live in SA do the work since they know what they are doing. Again, just send your money to the experts in SA while you stay in the US and take in foster children. There is always a need for foster homes. I really don't get these white savior fundies. And they infuriate me to no end. 

• They want to live like kings, either comparatively to the people they are around or actually in luxury in a lower cost of living area.  That is not possible in the US.
• In the US, it's too easy for people to see they aren't doing anything.
• No points for "being brave".  
• Harder to get funds for your US vacation.
• Foster Care has standards that these families could not meet in one million years.  There are environment standards, which include childproofing and children per bedroom.  They also would not be able to homeschool the foster children, punish them using corporal punishment, or deny them medical attention.  The foster kids would have to go to school, the doctor, and have a different discipline method.  Other kids might start asking questions. 
• Also CPS might start asking questions when the foster children report what they have seen in the home.  
• While the state will pay you support for housing foster children, it is a pittance compared to the actual cost of having the child in your home if you live at a middle class level.  So it wouldn't be a substitute for a J-O-B like many of these "missionary men" are looking for. 

[HarryPotterFan]

10 hours ago, EowynW said:

Oh boooohoooooo. 

 

When Mr. EW was 24, he flew solo to West Africa to help with some mission work. There were no malls or traditional grocery stores. They went to the market once a week and that's it. You didn't go out after dark because the Witch Doctors hated your guts. 

He never complained. 

 

My cousin lived in a rural village in the eastern region of Africa for a year. He wanted to host a Passover Seder with his friends, and he had to buy a goat, lead the LIVE GOAT BACK HOME, and get a neighbor to slaughter it for him. Talk about doing things the old fashioned biblical way...There's a good time for culture shock! Though from the sounds of it he had a good time.

The first time I encountered a grocery store inside an indoor mall was on trip to Mexico with a friend. It didn't cause culture shock...more of a, "Yay! Food time!" reaction. When I saw all the unfamiliar brands I immediately figured, "that makes sense." I did see a few familiar large American brands, like Oreo. That was where I first encountered the magic of Mega Stuf oreos. Magic I tell you, pure magic  My Spanish is terrible, and my friend is fluent, but I probably would have been fine navigating the store without her.

Also it annoys me that she complained about not being able to understand accents. What did she expect??

9 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I will NEVER understand the overseas missionary family. Never. Here's a novel idea. If you have a heart for orphans, start your little travel + beg and SEND the money to an already established orphanage in Africa. Otherwise you are wasting people's donated money on your children's plane tickets, food, visas, and housing. Stay your ass at HOME! If one of you wants to help with a new orphanage, work with someone who lives there and knows what the fuck they are doing. There's this handy thing called the internet where you can research orphanages and can communicate via email. For free!   Have your husband travel by himself (only one expensive plane ticket!) and work with some of those people for a few weeks and donate all the money you collected goes to the orphanage. This is like Operation Christmas Child. Send MONEY instead of that junk in a shoebox. Hint: your family is the junk in a shoe box. I am being harsh but it's the truth. If you wanted to help the orphans, you should've stayed at home. 

BTW, it seems she was having a panic attack in the mall but I'm sure she will do nothing for her anxiety but pray. And I doubt this will be her last episode in SA.

But your plan involves these people knowing that there is internet in Africa...

5 hours ago, subsaharanafrica said:

There is a largish nondenominational (in the sense that they're not affiliated with any one denomination but with several) Christian organization that already does most of their bullet points in multiple countries across Africa. 

They partner with whatever the largest denomination in a given country is, build a village centered around a school, hire local women to act as foster mothers, and basically raise children whose extended families cannot care for them and see that they get the education that they will need to succeed in life. 

Anyways, they used to be in South Africa. They pulled out about ten years ago because RSA does a pretty decent job taking care of the above on its own. 

That's the way to do it! Local foster families!! Kids need an environment where they can get one-on-one attention to flourish! Can't get that in an orphanage! Though individual attention is a foreign concept to most fundies we talk about.

Also how did her recon trip to SA and seeing families living in poverty lead to "THEY NEED ORPHANAGES??" That just reeks of the orphanage industry that takes advantage of impoverished families and takes children away from loving homes. I guess she doesn't know that's how orphanages are filled? How is she planning on finding orphans? Wouldn't seeing poverty make her see the need for community services? 

Oh wait, I'm using logic...

[SoGladIWasCofE]

Ugh, there's a reason most countries have switched to foster systems. Institutional care is really bad for child development, and results in disabilities and mental health issues at really high rates.

It's even worse when the parents are fine, just poor and in need of financial support.

All the good intentions in the world can't make an institution that's better than staying with the parents.

[Coy Koi]

I can't even believe how little she seemed to know about South Africa for someone who chose to move there and supposedly help the locals in ways they were apparently incapable of helping themselves. I'm far from being a South Africa enthusiast or scholar. I'm just some random American who has only left my country to go to Canada, but is generally interested in learning about a wide variety of topics, including world cultures. I should not know way more about South Africa than this ignoramus but it seems I do, and I don't say that to brag that I know so much. The point is that I DON'T. I just pick up random things here and there as they catch my interest. A regular, curious person should not randomly pick up more info about the place you PLANNED TO MOVE and "SERVE" than you did. That's insane.

Separate subject, because it sure sounds like I already knew more about South Africa than she did before reading this, but Trevor Noah's book "Born a Crime" is a good read that gives a lot of details about what everyday life in South Africa is like. I'm not a diehard Trevor Noah fan (I like him, but I'm still kind of mad at him for not being Jon Stewart), but I really enjoyed his book.

[BobTheWalrus]

14 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Can someone tell me why all these fundies don't just stay the fuck here and help the children in THIS country that go to bed hungry, are abused, and in need of fostering? Why not let the people who live in SA do the work since they know what they are doing. Again, just send your money to the experts in SA while you stay in the US and take in foster children. There is always a need for foster homes. I really don't get these white savior fundies. And they infuriate me to no end. 

Because half the time it's them that's abusing their kids, and if they opened their doors to fostering everyone would find out what kind of parents they are. Or the other version is, well the people here who abuse their kids, they're from "those" families, they live in America so they've got no excuse. but those poor brown people just don't know any better so we must go and show them the way. /s

[SoGladIWasCofE]

I think they want enough control over a large number of kids to force them to convert, but they don't actually want to take care of that many kids.

[Howl]

So hoping the Bergey's are flagged as undesirables and their visas are not renewed. 

[Palimpsest]

Here's the thing.  There is in reality a huge orphan crisis in sub-Saharan Africa, mainly due to the HIV/AIDS epidemic.  HIV/AIDS is still a death sentence in most of Africa, although progress has been made in treatment in developed nations.  And don't even get me started on President Thabo Mbeki's absolute denial of the issue in RSA.  It set that country back years in terms of social change and medical care.  I hope he rots in hell.

The orphan crisis has overwhelmed the traditional methods of extended family caring for children.  Families are frequently overwhelmed.  While orphanages are generally accepted as not optional places for children - an orphanage is better than nothing until foster homes in the community are found for the children, and funds found to support them.

By people who know what they are doing.  And that doesn't mean by people like the Bergeys.  It means the African governments themselves supported by good NGOs, secular, non-denominational, and even specific denominational orgs. so long as the priority is caring for and educating the children - not on converting them.

The Bergey's highfalutin bullet points about training staff and finding local families are stolen from these good organisations.  The Bergeys have no idea how to care for these displaced children, no structure, no solid plans, but they do have a whole lot of hubris. 

They just want to collect a bunch of vulnerable children for Jesus, and impose their "Christianity" on them.  Cultural imperialism at its worst.

Good source of information on the orphan crisis and ways to manage it here - but it is long:  https://www.unicef.org/sowc06/pdfs/africas_orphans.pdf

Quote

The HIV/AIDS epidemic in sub-Saharan Africa has already orphaned a generation of children – and now seems set to orphan generations more. Today, over 11 million children under the age of 15 living in sub-Saharan Africa have been robbed of one or both parents by HIV/AIDS. Seven years from now, the number is expected to have grown to 20 million. At that point, anywhere from 15 per cent to over 25 per cent of the children in a dozen sub-Saharan African countries will be orphans – the vast majority of them will have been orphaned by HIV/AIDS. Africa’s Orphaned Generations reports on the life circumstances of today’s orphans with new data and fresh analyses. It presents the possibility of change – for those already orphaned and for the generation to come – if certain things are done now.

 

[Joyleaf]

I'm still reading through the old thread and some of the blog posts but already wanted to write that I agree with what was written here:
 Not being able to do grocery shopping for a month is far more than "regular" culture shock.

Selena says about herself that she was homeschooled, and we know how that can look like in some fundy families, so maybe that plays a part in her being completely incapable of adjusting to something as simple as new brands of food.
Being taught to obey doesn't help in a situation like this.
I can't imagine her dealing with government officials and doing whatever is needed to get their child collecting project under way.

Edit: Ah, they have a buddy system for their kids. How surprising. Not.

[subsaharanafrica]

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

  HIV/AIDS is still a death sentence in most of Africa, although progress has been made in treatment in developed nations.  And don't even get me started on President Thabo Mbeki's absolute denial of the issue in RSA.  It set that country back years in terms of social change and medical care.  I hope he rots in Hell  

Let's not forget Mr. President "I don't need to worry about having contracted HIV whilst having an affair with an HIV + woman because I took a shower afterwards" Zuma. 

Seriously though, I think what really drove the issue home for me was watching a documentary called 21UP--South Africa/Mandela's children. They interviewed 14 seven year olds from all walks of life at the end of Apartheid and gen followed up with them at 14, 21, and 28. In between the interviews at 14 and 21 three of them had died from AIDS. 

[SoGladIWasCofE]

Do they have the skills to deal with a large number of hiv positive kids? Could they handle medication schedules? 

They do at least believe in proper medical care, right? Right?

[Lurky]

8 hours ago, SoGladIWasCofE said:

Do they have the skills to deal with a large number of hiv positive kids? Could they handle medication schedules? 

I was wondering if they've even take HIV+ kids - I suspect they have very strict criteria for what a suitable orphan is, especially after dumping their own adopted daughter in a group home.

[SoGladIWasCofE]

Well, that's horrifyingly selfish. 

Sometimes I get the feeling these people are just using children of colour as props to show their church how wonderful they are.

[Rowan]

Quote

The difference from rands to dollars made everything seem crazy expensive. 

Granted, it was a little more than two years ago that I spent three weeks in Namibia and South Africa, but no the stuff isn't "crazy expensive." I remember things being very reasonable, if not cheap. Things like napkins and chips and shampoo. When there are 120-ish (I don't remember exactly what it was now) Rand to the US dollar, just divide by 100 and knock off a bit! Now that it's 70 to the dollar, it's a little more complicated, but still not that bad. Within the first day, we had all made the mental adjustments with no issue. There is no reason why she should be having problems!

The one major "culture shock" that I experienced was the lack of maps in SA! My friend and I were driving from Johannesburg to Kruger National Park and back - a pretty significant drive. I screenshotted as many things from GoogleMaps as I could while we had wifi the night before the initial drive, but they weren't great. We asked at the hotel, at a supermarket, and at the several gas stations we stopped at - and everyone looked at us like we were crazy. It made for an interesting drive since road markings aren't as prevalent as you would hope! But we survived, had a great adventure, and next time (if there is one!) we know to take the (small) planes to Kruger instead. LOL

So yeah, I have NO sympathy for this idiot. Only for her kids that she has dragged into this, and the people in SA that are being subjected to her behavior. 

[elliha]

Often if you go to another country it is easier to count if you try to match up the country's money with bills in your own money or even numbers in your own money. For example: At one point I went to the UK and the pound was very strong and at that time 10 pounds equaled about 150 Swedish crowns (SEK). Therefore I could easily compare and see: "Would I pay 150 SEK for this? Hell no/Maybe/Yes but that is not cheap/Hell yes! Supercheap! If the sum was lower or higher I could double or half my reference easily to have the right sum. Some years later when I returned to the UK the pound was much weaker and 10 pounds was only about 125 SEK so that time I used 2 20 pounds as my reference and thought of it as 40 pounds equals 500 SEK instead. If you try to find a bridge to your thoughts like that it is easier to compare prizes both in terms of cheap/expensive and finding out what it actually cost in your own money. 

[seraaa]

I looked it up out of curiosity, and the three biggest languages in Port Elizabeth are Afrikaans, English and Xhosa, in that order, according to Wiki. They are stipulated as "first language" though, and I bet  more people speak English than the (already significant) proportion listed there.

It sounds like Selina is suffering from anxiety, and would perhaps benefit from some help if it doesn't go away. I understand finding crowded places overwhelming, it's just classic. 

[HarryPotterFan]

On 11/8/2017 at 3:03 AM, Coy Koi said:

Separate subject, because it sure sounds like I already knew more about South Africa than she did before reading this, but Trevor Noah's book "Born a Crime" is a good read that gives a lot of details about what everyday life in South Africa is like. I'm not a diehard Trevor Noah fan (I like him, but I'm still kind of mad at him for not being Jon Stewart), but I really enjoyed his book.

Who doesn't feel this way, haha. I wish Jon Stewart was around for the last election cycle. He's probably glad he escaped though...I remember when he left the Daily Show he said doing research by watching Fox News was getting to him. 

13 hours ago, SoGladIWasCofE said:

Do they have the skills to deal with a large number of hiv positive kids? Could they handle medication schedules? 

They do at least believe in proper medical care, right? Right?

I'd feel so sorry for an HIV+ child they took in, or one who lost their parents to HIV. These people seem like they'd prattle on about sin or some BS and make the child feel like HIV is their fault for being bad. I'm torn between agreeing with @Lurky that they probably have strict criteria, and thinking they'd take in a child with HIV or special needs just to show how godly they are, then neglect the child and fail to provide them with the healthcare they need.