I want to tell stories

[RebelliousEscapee]

My question: Do you know whether or not the old VF crowd is still keeping tabs on what DPIAT is up to? Do they talk about what he's up to in Europe now? Act like he's never existed? Do you think there's anyone left who would ever let him come back, if he wanted to? (Not that I think he will, I'm just curious about how people feel about him now.)

(As an aside, I have to admit that seeing you on here makes me almost feel giddy. I read your mom's blog regularly throughout my teen years, when I was a devoted VF follower. It makes me super glad to see that someone I knew of back then is on FJ, too.)

[Denonner]

1 hour ago, Meeka said:

It makes me happy that you are finding your own way in this world and doing what you think is best for yourself. I'm always interested in what makes people change and leave the lifestyle and beliefs that they are raised with. Was the changes that you made leaving that lifestyle a sudden decision or something that came about gradually?

Were Doug and the others in the higher up positions people that you were suppose to look up to an copy and was there the idea that you may be able to get into their higher position at some point? Or was it something like there are defined classes and their lifestyle was not for people "like you"?

It was pretty gradual. Some things went quickly and others didn't. It was more that I realized it just wasn't feasible for an adult to subscribe to a worldview just because my parents said so. I had to start thinking about why I believed what I did, and why I would reject the things I didn't. 

I've gone through a lot of phases in my thinking and I'm still learning more every day. I don't know where I'll end up, but I do know that God seems a lot more real now than he did when I only thought of him as some angry judgemental dad in the sky. 

It was more of a holiness and education divide than material wealth. If I had wanted to, maybe I could have become like the Botkin sisters.  But I was never interested in trying to access that higher level or to become some wise theological daughter. I would much rather be someone people can approach for comfort when they are hurting. 

[Granwych]

19 hours ago, crazysnark said:

I am not here to defend here I just felt people were being unusually rude and was just wondering why. 

Jesus, Crazy, give it a rest already.

[Destiny]

Just wandering by to say @Denonner, I had no idea who you were before yesterday since I’m more interested in ATI than VF, but I like you and hope you stick around. 

Also, a+ usage of my favorite word.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

2 hours ago, Destiny said:

Also, a+ usage of my favorite word.

Well, apparently I wasn't paying attention as closely as I thought I was. Now I have to go back and reread! 

ETA--Found it/them quickly, thanks to "search". Rufus bless FJ's robust search feature and the helpmeets and admins who make it all possible!  

Edited October 25, 2017 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
ETA

[hoipolloi]

9 hours ago, Denonner said:

I've gone through a lot of phases in my thinking and I'm still learning more every day. I don't know where I'll end up, but I do know that God seems a lot more real now than he did when I only thought of him as some angry judgemental dad in the sky. 

Good for you, Deanna, and welcome!

 

[barnacles]

Sorry, I know I'm a bit late to the party.  I have a few questions that I've always been curious about and that made me jump from lurker to participant. I'm not sure if you ever read Jen Epstein's blog, but she made some pretty outrageous claims about doug/BCA that I always wondered about.  She doesn't seem like a particularly trustworthy individual, but neither is Doug...sooo... I know you said you only went to BCA a few times, but to the best of your ability can you tell me:

1.)  Were women in BCA strictly banned from speaking in the church building altogether?  Like, unable to say hello, make basic chit-chat, introduce people, etc., or was that just an exaggeration from people like Jen Epstein?

2.)  Does BCA still exist today in any form, or has everyone dispersed?

3.)  Did people  actually have to be vetted before they could attend?  Could a stranger just show up at the door and walk in for service like any other church? 

4.)  Jen wrote a novel's worth about a certain female parishioner who was seducing the men.  Jen seemed to allude that this behavior was somehow tied to the Lourdes incident, and that Doug went out of his way to cover up the whole thing.  Do you know anything about that?

5.)  Is it true that Doug doesn't have a drivers license and the interns had to chauffeur him everywhere?

ETA:  Forgot one.

6.)  Why does everyone seem to hate Nathaniel Darnell so much?  I know he comes off as a smug jerk, but so did a lot of the Dougites.  It almost seems like he did something particularly bad that pissed off everyone, and that courtship he went through seemed to end on bad terms. Do you know of any backstory in play here?  Is it really just because he's exceptionally smug?

Thanks in advance for whatever info you're able to share.  These questions have bugged me since Tool O'Ween.

Edited October 26, 2017 by barnacles

[LurkerOverThePond]

Deanna, did you ever meet Scott Brown? If you did, what was he like? Anything like The Tool?

[DomWackTroll]

And what about Voddie Baucham? Does he have that "star" aura in person? Did you know his daughter Jasmine? 

[Denonner]

2 hours ago, LurkerOverThePond said:

Deanna, did you ever meet Scott Brown? If you did, what was he like? Anything like The Tool?

I never met Scott Brown, sorry.

2 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

And what about Voddie Baucham? Does he have that "star" aura in person? Did you know his daughter Jasmine? 

I met voddie baucham once at a conference. He seemed nice. I've never met his daughter. 

[Denonner]

10 hours ago, barnacles said:

Sorry, I know I'm a bit late to the party.  I have a few questions that I've always been curious about and that made me jump from lurker to participant. I'm not sure if you ever read Jen Epstein's blog, but she made some pretty outrageous claims about doug/BCA that I always wondered about.  She doesn't seem like a particularly trustworthy individual, but neither is Doug...sooo... I know you said you only went to BCA a few times, but to the best of your ability can you tell me:

1.)  Were women in BCA strictly banned from speaking in the church building altogether?  Like, unable to say hello, make basic chit-chat, introduce people, etc., or was that just an exaggeration from people like Jen Epstein?

2.)  Does BCA still exist today in any form, or has everyone dispersed?

3.)  Did people  actually have to be vetted before they could attend?  Could a stranger just show up at the door and walk in for service like any other church? 

4.)  Jen wrote a novel's worth about a certain female parishioner who was seducing the men.  Jen seemed to allude that this behavior was somehow tied to the Lourdes incident, and that Doug went out of his way to cover up the whole thing.  Do you know anything about that?

5.)  Is it true that Doug doesn't have a drivers license and the interns had to chauffeur him everywhere?

ETA:  Forgot one.

6.)  Why does everyone seem to hate Nathaniel Darnell so much?  I know he comes off as a smug jerk, but so did a lot of the Dougites.  It almost seems like he did something particularly bad that pissed off everyone, and that courtship he went through seemed to end on bad terms. Do you know of any backstory in play here?  Is it really just because he's exceptionally smug?

Thanks in advance for whatever info you're able to share.  These questions have bugged me since Tool O'Ween.

1, there's no way that was true. I only visited bca 3 times but it seemed like a normal straitlaced church to me.

2, don't know

3, I heard that rumor but I have no way of knowing if it was true. My family was a vf family and therefore welcome

4, the whole Jen epstein thing was really confusing for me. DPIAT felt so threatened that the stress leaked down into all of vf to the point that my dad even got stressed about it and therefore so did all of us. I believe her about how he reacted to her allegations of being abused, but the rest of it just never came across as believable to me. Who knows though. 

5, that's not true. I saw him drive lol

6, I don't know. He was smug all the time but I've really wondered about that too. 

[Leftitinmysnood]

11 hours ago, barnacles said:

 

ETA:  Forgot one.

6.)  Why does everyone seem to hate Nathaniel Darnell so much?  I know he comes off as a smug jerk, but so did a lot of the Dougites.  It almost seems like he did something particularly bad that pissed off everyone, and that courtship he went through seemed to end on bad terms. Do you know of any backstory in play here?  Is it really just because he's exceptionally smug?

I'm not Denonner, and I haven't met Darnell, but my non-VF friends and family who have classify him as a grade - A self-righteous, misogynistic jerk who gets off on power. I know someone who had to spend a week with him for an event and the whole group was punking him by the end because no one could stand him. Also, somewhere I think there is reference to his ghastly comments about his ex after the courtship ended. Everyone thinks she dodged a bullet.

[Palimpsest]

Thanks @Denonner.  I think Jen must have been a real problem for Doug.  He just couldn't shut her up!  I don't have a very good opinion of Jen these days.

@barnacles, welcome to FJ!

I'll also answer a few of your questions from a distant observer's POV.

2.) Does BCA still exist today in any form, or has everyone dispersed?

Last I heard from an insider, it was still in existence but there was a schism and they lost a fair amount of the congregation. Allegedly.  They wiped all references to Doug from the website after excommunicating him.  

4.)  Jen wrote a novel's worth about a certain female parishioner who was seducing the men.  

Ah, yes.  That was where Jen's coverage of the Fall of the Tool went completely off the rails!  We called the lady in question Mrs. Robinson here because Jen's stories seemed so off the charts bitchy and, frankly, jealous.   She must have been the parishioner from hell, and although I don't doubt that Doug's handling of the Mark and Jen situation was terrible, Jen has gone on to leave more havoc in her wake.  I lost all patience with her when she hooked up with TW Eston (who is probably the vile Kinnist Peter Kershaw.)  Jen jumps from following Tools like Doug into following other Tools every. single. time.  She is obviously attracted to the worst sort of people and beliefs.

6.)  Why does everyone seem to hate Nathaniel Darnell so much? 

Until the Fall of the Tool I paid very little attention to smug Darnell.  He seems to have been unpopular with some of the people from BCA and VF who knew him but no smugger than some of the other interns.  I don't think @JohnRobertMoore, liked Darnell much.  I can't remember though.  My particular dislike of him is based on:

1. His attitude on Facebook when Nolan Manteufel and Bradrick! spoke out against Doug.  He was all "thou shalt not gossip, you naughty boys."
2. His writings on PerservoNews!  Good grief!
3. His writings on the Christian Reconstructionist and Theonomist Facebook page before it went private.  That page was disgusting.  It almost made VF look liberal.

[older than allosaurs]

48 minutes ago, Leftitinmysnood said:

I'm not Denonner, and I haven't met Darnell, but my non-VF friends and family who have classify him as a grade - A self-righteous, misogynistic jerk who gets off on power. I know someone who had to spend a week with him for an event and the whole group was punking him by the end because no one could stand him. Also, somewhere I think there is reference to his ghastly comments about his ex after the courtship ended. Everyone thinks she dodged a bullet.

The ex lives near me and works at a Doug Wilson-approved church down the road. We have some Facebook friends in common. She has two sisters and they are all literate, nice looking, and single.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

1 hour ago, older than allosaurs said:

The ex lives near me and works at a Doug Wilson-approved church down the road. We have some Facebook friends in common. She has two sisters and they are all literate, nice looking, and single.

I’m Facebook friends with the three oldest girls and their mom. They all seem very sweet and sincere. The parents seem to have separated and, although fundie, the mom is very outspoken about abuse (marital, spiritual, etc.). 

[justwatching]

On 25/10/2017 at 6:16 PM, Denonner said:

It was pretty gradual. Some things went quickly and others didn't. It was more that I realized it just wasn't feasible for an adult to subscribe to a worldview just because my parents said so. I had to start thinking about why I believed what I did, and why I would reject the things I didn't. 
I've gone through a lot of phases in my thinking and I'm still learning more every day. I don't know where I'll end up, but I do know that God seems a lot more real now than he did when I only thought of him as some angry judgemental dad in the sky. 
It was more of a holiness and education divide than material wealth. If I had wanted to, maybe I could have become like the Botkin sisters.  But I was never interested in trying to access that higher level or to become some wise theological daughter. I would much rather be someone people can approach for comfort when they are hurting. 

This made my heart happy. My best to you!

 

[anniebgood]

Thank you for coming to play with us. You've got such a treasure store of information. I used to read about DPIAT and VF and just shake my head. (I'm a very liberal Lutheran who would have never put up with that drivel). When the news came out about he and Lourdes, I laughed out loud. 

Again, thanks and don't be a stranger!

 

[Jasmar]

10 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

And what about Voddie Baucham? Does he have that "star" aura in person? Did you know his daughter Jasmine? 

I’ve seen Voddie B. In person. He was the main draw one year for the state homeschool conference. He drew huge crowds, and had the place eating out of his hand. Very charismatic.

[Maxwell]

The title of this thread is "I want to tell stories"... so tell some!  What do you know that we may not?  Anything you've been wanting to shed some light on?

[Maxwell]

7 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

2.) Does BCA still exist today in any form, or has everyone dispersed?

Last I heard from an insider, it was still in existence but there was a schism and they lost a fair amount of the congregation. Allegedly.  They wiped all references to Doug from the website after excommunicating him.

The website has gone dark & has been so for quite some time.

[barnacles]

Thank you Denonner, Palimpsest, Leftitinmysnood, and anyone else I may have missed that answered my questions.  The whole VF lifestyle always managed to simultaneously fascinate me and repulse me.  It's really hard to tease out what actually went on behind the scenes vs. what image was presented to the general public vs. what people like Jen Epstein had to say.  For a while Jen seemed to be the only one talking, but she's crazy and behaves more like a jilted girlfriend than a former congregant.  After reading her blog I always left feeling like that Oprah "What is the truth?!" gif.  Whenever insiders pop in here and start talking, I feel like I'm watching the world's most niche sociological documentary.

tl/dr:  Thanks a bunch.

Edited October 27, 2017 by barnacles

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Hey, I was wondering why you married so young? Did your parents encourage it? 

Also congrats on baby on the way! I have 2 Little ones aged almost 3 & 6 months. I am so done, two is plenty for me but I love them and it’s the best thing I’ve ever done. I hope you love it as much as I do. 

[DomWackTroll]

5 hours ago, barnacles said:

...vs. what people like Jen Epstein had to say.  For a while Jen seemed to be the only one talking, but she's crazy and behaves more like a jilted girlfriend than a former congregant. 

The weird thing is that Jen seems to have completely lost interest in all things VF. No comments (that I've seen) on the Bradrick! meltdown, no comments on Doug and Beall's apparent separation, no comments on the European debauchery... 

I mean, good for her for dropping the obsession and getting a life, but it's surprising. 

[punkiepie]

I matriculated from an IFB church and slowly made my way out. Eventually my mom left that church, although she still goes to one I don't like. It took awhile, but we are okay now, she knows she's not going to change my mind on things, just like I know I'm not going to change her mind.  My parents' desire to be part of my daughter's life was really the big changing point for us- they love her and want to be in her life, so they realized a huge factor in that happening was accepting me for who I was.  @Denonner I know at one point you were estranged from your parents and I'm not sure how things are now, but either way, just remember that you are the Mama and deserving of all the respect and deference that goes along with that title.  

[barnacles]

2 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

The weird thing is that Jen seems to have completely lost interest in all things VF. No comments (that I've seen) on the Bradrick! meltdown, no comments on Doug and Beall's apparent separation, no comments on the European debauchery... 

I mean, good for her for dropping the obsession and getting a life, but it's surprising. 

I have a feeling she's found someone or something else to attach herself to.  I don't think she knows how to function without a guru and something to feel self-righteous about.  The 2007-ish original meltdown was unbelievable.  Both she and Doug have some very serious personality issues.  In a way, they were almost made for each other.  If we could ever put together a VF Big Brother house with Doug, Beall, Jen, Darnell, Bradrick, Kevin Swanson, etc.  I would watch the shit out of that.  The VF group has been like my most favorite soap opera since the early oughts, but I'm definitely deriving less joy from it now that real tragedies are coming to the surface, and it's no longer just silly bickering and infighting in 18th century costumes.

Part of me really wants to know the details of the Bradrick! meltdown, but I get this feeling that maybe Kelly has been through more than enough already and I don't even feel good about looking into it.  I do have a suspicion that Bradrick! may have done something much worse than even being gay/bi and unfaithful.  I hope I'm wrong, and I hope she can find happiness somewhere.  For someone who should have been the essence of privilege (gorgeous, blond, well-off family, etc.) it seems as if the men in her life continually deal her one bad hand after another.